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Should Police be Required to Confirm the Threat Before Shooting.

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posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 10:42 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


But ignoring a command and dropping their arms to the side does not equate to " is planning on charging me, taking my gun and killing me."


I think cops are trained to treat every situation as the worst case scenario.....and obviously your worst case scenerio doesn't fit the average encounter.

Our entire system is based on that logic with every crime (except financial) getting the penalty as if you are some criminal mastermind.

Well said. Its their job to get shot at, if they somehow cant handle that they shouldn't show up for work.

Additionally, its also their job to try and handle a situation as non violent as possible first, not 'jump the gun', right off.




posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 10:51 AM
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I thought cops were hero's who put their lives on the line to protect and serve?!?!

You don't get to claim to be a hero if your shooting people "just in case, they might have been armed."


Your not willing to take the risks required to call yourself a hero...

So are they regular joes who's only concern is making it home?


Or hero's who are the best of society???

Depends on the cop..

Rebuttal:

Is this an answer directed at Me? I'd first ask where did You read where I typed anything about cops being heroes? I've already "taken the risks" and now have a broken back/neck, but I'd NEVER label Myself as a "Hero"...
"Yes, regular 'Joes' that instead of typing about snip they went and did the actual "job" some are NOT cut out to be cops yet they still did the job..

I'd also crawl out on 'that limb' and type that You'd have a way better chance of changing things from 'within' an actual police department rather an intraweb chat-forum. At least go on a "Citizen Ride-Along" at a busy p.d. and actual see/watch what cops do every day at least then You'd have more info to make a decision. Some p.d. are actually opening up their training and allowing Citizens (the cops' bosses) to participate in "Shoot/Don't Shoot scenarios" maybe do one of these if a p.d. in Your area offers the opportunity...

Since YOU mentioned the "Hero"...

In Your opinion who is more of this 'Hero" You type about: A person in the military who 'might' deploy then who 'might' engage in combat out of the 100s of 1,000s of US troops..

OR

A 'regular Joe' who straps it on for 40 hours a week patrolling YOUR neighborhood?

•• Of course I travel in a "Free Will Zone" and if You'd rather address this query in a rhetorical fashion by all means...

Stay Hydrated...

P.S. I'd also add anyone who claims to be a "Hero" most likely isn't One, but then what a "Hero" to One might be a "Zero" to another...



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 10:53 AM
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originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: Mianeye

how many not guilty of a crime have cops killed this year? or not proven guilty of any crimes, or didnt pose a threat.

but i think cops should kill in every situation just to protect themselve i love the state of things right now. more guns, our rights, kill first, then identify weapon, kill first if there maybe a weapon, kill if perp is trying to get away, saves paper work, kill if in road rage, kill in any conflicting situation. forget training.

cops need to protect themselves at all times, killing is the only option i see. dont compare our population with china or in european countries with gunless LEOS, its different here. police need to react before a perp can think to act or pull out what maybe IDs or guns hidden in gym shorts or under naked skin of their body.

our brave LEO needn't have to identify a threat before killing. they need to protect themselves first in any possibility of probable danger. thats how our men and women in the forces do it in hostile regions 10000 times deadlier than Orange county CA. these LEOs are in constant danger.



I think it averages about a grand a year. Or 2015 it was 990ish.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 10:59 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
A couple of things here...

Someone said the primary job of a cop was to go home at the end of the day. I disagree. If that were so, then they should be just fine sitting in the station waiting out the clock. They would still be doing their primary job if that were true; actually, they would be doing it better. Their primary job is to enforce the law.

It may be the primary goal; I'll grant that.

I don't agree on a directive to verify a threat, though. In a confrontation, there's no time to verify. A fatal shot can be fired from a hidden weapon in less than a second, faster than anyone can react. Actions must be proactive instead of reactive in many circumstances. That's just the nature of the job.

But that's where the real problem comes in: cops must be proactive, so by extension they must exhibit good judgement. There will always be accidents, but lately those accidents are becoming commonplace. That's evidence of a lack of good judgement. Maybe not illegal, per se, but certainly an indication that maybe they're just not cop material.

That's not a bad thing. Some people aren't cut out for some jobs. A 98 lb. woman is probably not going to make a good miner. Someone with bad eyesight shouldn't be driving jet airliners. Someone with poor hearing isn't going to do well as a sound engineer.

What we need is proven judgement under fire, not more restrictions that will increase the body count. We need cops who have the common sense to realize when someone is trying to understand why the situation is escalating, and not trying to get the drop on them. We need cops who realize and respect the authority given them, not who are on a power trip. Those cops are getting hard to find, usually because there are already too many crazy restrictions.

It is a rule of business that you get the kind of employees you act like you want. Treat them like kids, and the adults will leave for greener pastures while the kids stay because there are no greener pastures. Treat them like adults and the kids won't be able to hack it. Treat them like reasonable, respectful professionals, and the rest won't make the grade. Treat them like fallible, scared wanna-bes and the professionals will leave.

The root cause is not really the cops we have doing bad things. It's society trying to micromanage them like children, to the point all we have left holding that gun are children who have to be micromanaged.

TheRedneck



By the logic you can never hold them accountable for anything as ANYONE could be armed at any time.

They should be shooting people rather than pulling them over... you know just in case...


I personally don't think that is too much to ask, and if put in a situation so drastic you can't wait to confirm a threat. Then the cop better be right, or it's your @$$.

When it all comes out, if it was a gun, your cool.. if it wasn't...



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: JimNasium

Being I was a cop My views 'may' be viewed as 'biased' but can reveal this nugget:

The cop's primary JOB is to go home at the end of the shift.

I'll also agree 100% that there are many in the Law Enforcement community that have no business being IN the business, let alone a job that deals with the 'public'. e.g. If You identify as "White" and have even a tad bit of animosity towards anyone of a different shade, join the ARMY™ real "gung-ho" then the Marines™ are also hiring.

I'll even add this: It isn't that more illegal substances are being used/sold in the lower income communities, it is just "more likely" that those contacted and arrested in these communities won't hire LEGAL REPRESENTATION, they will 'roll the dice' with a newbie from the Public Defender's office who will have a "plea deal" already worked out. I ONLY mention this because until this is changed; the way snip gets handled will NOT change. Rinse; Repeat; Get Gov't. Grants; Rinse; repeat...

In closing, more cops nowadays are 'impatient' (in a hurry to get nowhere quicker..) this leads to 'rash judgements' I'd also suggest the Officer NOT drag the badge around. Not everyone needs to go to Jail...

Vaya Con Dias...

Proud Member of LEAP• Law Enforcement Against Prohibition



As someone who's never had a positive experience with police in my life, I like your posts and really respect your views on things like this. You being a member of LEAP says it all to me. 100 stars for that post if I could.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: underwerks

'Thank You' that is nice of You to type...

namaste



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think the legal standard should be uniform. If a cop can shoot an unarmed person because he is in fear for his life, then a person should be able to shoot a cop if he is in fear for his life. The law should treat them both the same way.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:06 PM
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originally posted by: JimNasium
I thought cops were hero's who put their lives on the line to protect and serve?!?!

You don't get to claim to be a hero if your shooting people "just in case, they might have been armed."


Your not willing to take the risks required to call yourself a hero...

So are they regular joes who's only concern is making it home?


Or hero's who are the best of society???

Depends on the cop..


Rebuttal:

Is this an answer directed at Me? I'd first ask where did You read where I typed anything about cops being heroes? I've already "taken the risks" and now have a broken back/neck, but I'd NEVER label Myself as a "Hero"...
"Yes, regular 'Joes' that instead of typing about snip they went and did the actual "job" some are NOT cut out to be cops yet they still did the job..

I'd also crawl out on 'that limb' and type that You'd have a way better chance of changing things from 'within' an actual police department rather an intraweb chat-forum. At least go on a "Citizen Ride-Along" at a busy p.d. and actual see/watch what cops do every day at least then You'd have more info to make a decision. Some p.d. are actually opening up their training and allowing Citizens (the cops' bosses) to participate in "Shoot/Don't Shoot scenarios" maybe do one of these if a p.d. in Your area offers the opportunity...

Since YOU mentioned the "Hero"...

In Your opinion who is more of this 'Hero" You type about: A person in the military who 'might' deploy then who 'might' engage in combat out of the 100s of 1,000s of US troops..

OR

A 'regular Joe' who straps it on for 40 hours a week patrolling YOUR neighborhood?

•• Of course I travel in a "Free Will Zone" and if You'd rather address this query in a rhetorical fashion by all means...

Stay Hydrated...

P.S. I'd also add anyone who claims to be a "Hero" most likely isn't One, but then what a "Hero" to One might be a "Zero" to another...





Which one is willing to put his life or bodily harm on the line to save some one else?

Which I think is a fair definition of a hero.


If your willing to kill some one, before you even confirm they are a threat to you. You're doing the opposite of risking your life for others...

Your risking their lives just in case you might be endanger..

PS not You, you lol.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:14 PM
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originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: subject x

No, but it does say they can deploy lethal force when they believe there is an imminent lethal threat to themselves or others.

Waiting until a weapon is produced and the threat has had time to evolve doesn't benefit the officer in any way. It benefits the armchair quarterbacks. Many of whom would still manage to find fault, as evidenced in any number of ats threads. Hence the comment.




Yea but it benefits every American citizen who is not an armed threat to an officer..



A police officer knows the job and is paid trained and armed specifically to do it...


Some random nervous citizen did not sign up for any of it.

So shouldn't the "burden of proof" be on the trained professional, not the random citizen??



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


By the logic you can never hold them accountable for anything as ANYONE could be armed at any time.

No, you misunderstand my position. I am saying cops must be held more accountable, in transparent investigations whenever there is evidence of a wrongful action. No just shootings either, but any interaction with civilians.

But I am also saying there's a flip side to this. Because cops must, in today's sue-happy, entitlement society, be given the benefit of the doubt in such investigations, when even that is not sufficient, they must be held strictly accountable. That includes prison time for those committing what would be a felony for normal folks. It also includes the same (or greater) culpability in civil cases after wrongdoing is discovered.

The cops with good judgement will be cleared, and even making an honest occasional mistake can be tolerated in the face of years of consistent good judgement. But those who lack good judgement will leave, quickly, because their actions would have great consequences, as they should. The result will be less bad cops and more good cops. Our slogan today is just more cops, with no emphasis on the good or bad.

With that badge comes more than just a job. It includes a responsibility, and a respect for doing a terribly difficult, terribly dangerous job. I have nothing but respect for any person in a police uniform, until their actions tell me they have no respect for me. In my time, I have dealt with good and bad... the good who stopped to see if I needed assistance when I was broke down on the side of the road, or the Trooper who showed up at my house to make sure my wife was OK when he didn't hear a quick enough response to the 911 medical call. Even the one who carried me to jail once in my youth, but was polite and respectful doing it, has my respect and appreciation. But then there's the guy who decided he wanted my company to pay a fine in NY, so he nit-picked my truck until he found something. Or the cop who decided my son needed a ticket for noting in particular, until I stepped out of the truck. Or maybe the cop who drew his pistol on me after I called to report a prowler.

Or that beating I took at the hands of a gang of cops in my youth.

The latter examples need to not be anywhere near civil service, and especially not one where they can hold a weapon. The former examples are heroes that prove their heroism every single day of their lives. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

TheRedneck



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by: DrakeINFERNO
a reply to: WilburnRoach

The differwnce the cops are doing their job and 99% of peiple they shoot are committing crimes. Stupid statement.




define crime....


A lot of this stuff starts with a minor traffic infraction type charge and escalates.


Then the police story is that some random person with. NO need to throw their life away. Supposedly charged the cop and went for his gun.


Now has that happened before?!?!

I'm sure!

Does it happen every single day???


I don't think so..

Something else that is NEVER addressed is the false police reports...

Even why IMHO the shooting was justified. The police report rarely matches the video.


Often overplaying it even when justified.


Take Scott for example.


If I'm right the early police report was that he pointed the gun at the cop. Which I don't think is required for a police officer to shoot. Being armed and refusing to drop it is good enough IMHO.

But the video clearly showed he was not shot after pointing it at them, but no one ever addresses the lie.



edit on 28-9-2016 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 12:27 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: JoshuaCox


By the logic you can never hold them accountable for anything as ANYONE could be armed at any time.

No, you misunderstand my position. I am saying cops must be held more accountable, in transparent investigations whenever there is evidence of a wrongful action. No just shootings either, but any interaction with civilians.

But I am also saying there's a flip side to this. Because cops must, in today's sue-happy, entitlement society, be given the benefit of the doubt in such investigations, when even that is not sufficient, they must be held strictly accountable. That includes prison time for those committing what would be a felony for normal folks. It also includes the same (or greater) culpability in civil cases after wrongdoing is discovered.

The cops with good judgement will be cleared, and even making an honest occasional mistake can be tolerated in the face of years of consistent good judgement. But those who lack good judgement will leave, quickly, because their actions would have great consequences, as they should. The result will be less bad cops and more good cops. Our slogan today is just more cops, with no emphasis on the good or bad.

With that badge comes more than just a job. It includes a responsibility, and a respect for doing a terribly difficult, terribly dangerous job. I have nothing but respect for any person in a police uniform, until their actions tell me they have no respect for me. In my time, I have dealt with good and bad... the good who stopped to see if I needed assistance when I was broke down on the side of the road, or the Trooper who showed up at my house to make sure my wife was OK when he didn't hear a quick enough response to the 911 medical call. Even the one who carried me to jail once in my youth, but was polite and respectful doing it, has my respect and appreciation. But then there's the guy who decided he wanted my company to pay a fine in NY, so he nit-picked my truck until he found something. Or the cop who decided my son needed a ticket for noting in particular, until I stepped out of the truck. Or maybe the cop who drew his pistol on me after I called to report a prowler.

Or that beating I took at the hands of a gang of cops in my youth.

The latter examples need to not be anywhere near civil service, and especially not one where they can hold a weapon. The former examples are heroes that prove their heroism every single day of their lives. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

TheRedneck



Agreed the good ones are the cream of the crop of any society!



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 01:20 PM
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I love how the premise of most replies is that the police just roll up and start shooting people.

In the vast majority of situations, we see the same story emerging. Police turn up, give the guy multiple directions, the guy doesn't comply, the guy does something that raises the threat level, the guy gets shot.

Here's an easy solution to significantly reduce the number of people getting shot. If a police officer points a gun at you and tells you to drop whatever it is you have in your hands, or take your hands out of your pockets, or whatever direction it is... just do it. They're not doing it for fun and giggles, they're doing it to establish that you are not a threat or to prevent you developing into a threat. They are turning up to a scene full of unknowns, taking control of that situation as fast as possible is the safest way for everyone involved - the public, the police, and yes, even the suspect. Proned out may not be dignified, but it's safe and it's alive. Well, it's safe unless you're a caretaker for an autistic kid.

If you're going to ignore directions from an officer currently pointing a gun at you, guess what message you've just sent them? I'll give you a hint - it begins with "you are" and ends with "a threat".

If you think this is a terrible attack on your civil rights, then take it up with courts, or the complaint bodies, or the press. You can change the law and change society's expectations after the event. You're not going to change the officer's mind in the heat of the moment.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

What your missing is that it is many times a single MILLISECOND...a heartbeat...you havent time to make a call, ask your partner, radio ahead, use binoculars..

Its F'd up, I know...I agree...but its a great idea, but hard to do in a single breath or you could die...



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

1) it is a rapey serial killer, wanted by the law, who "isn't going back".
valid reasoning...IMHO...as long as it is correct rapist...not sure why so many love and support rape and voilation or threatening a person into things they wish not to do...not human IMHO...
interesting thread...
if a gun was held to my brain for sex i am a dead female



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are really missing an important point....its nearly impossible to confirm...say in the dark, across a street, alongside a wall, or in a car...of what is or isnt a weapon. "Hey Officer Joe? Ya think thats a gun? Or just a cell phone?"

We have a bunch of innocent and now DEAD kids who didnt realize what could be misconstrued as a weapon...or having a weapon...or not. And some are dead because of trigger happy responding officers....true.

There is no way I can think of to confirm a weapon in every case, all the time, without fail...Yes. Its F'd up...youre right...But its the world you and I live in today.

If you want to say "whenever possible...to save the life of say a mentally upset autistic kid who doesnt have one no matter how it looks the opposite...there has to be a way to confirm there really IS ONE"...we've not found a sure fire way to effectively do that.

I wish there was...but it comes down to time. Often there isnt any...so it wouldnt always work. I agree there should be...but without some form of ESP...I dont think there is in every case, all the time...even if the family is screaming "he doesnt have a weapon...he's a challenged teen!"...it a very tough judgement call.

Thank you for the replies here...maybe even you and I talking here...can lead to others finding a way to confirm these situations....and save lives...on both sides.

Thanks again



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 04:28 PM
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originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are really missing an important point....its nearly impossible to confirm...say in the dark, across a street, alongside a wall, or in a car...of what is or isnt a weapon. "Hey Officer Joe? Ya think thats a gun? Or just a cell phone?"

We have a bunch of innocent and now DEAD kids who didnt realize what could be misconstrued as a weapon...or having a weapon...or not. And some are dead because of trigger happy responding officers....true.

There is no way I can think of to confirm a weapon in every case, all the time, without fail...Yes. Its F'd up...youre right...But its the world you and I live in today.

If you want to say "whenever possible...to save the life of say a mentally upset autistic kid who doesnt have one no matter how it looks the opposite...there has to be a way to confirm there really IS ONE"...we've not found a sure fire way to effectively do that.

I wish there was...but it comes down to time. Often there isnt any...so it wouldnt always work. I agree there should be...but without some form of ESP...I dont think there is in every case, all the time...even if the family is screaming "he doesnt have a weapon...he's a challenged teen!"...it a very tough judgement call.

Thank you for the replies here...maybe even you and I talking here...can lead to others finding a way to confirm these situations....and save lives...on both sides.

Thanks again



And every single one of those cases where the officer didn't wait to confirm the threat, would still be alive today...


The real bottom line is how much do police deaths rise vs. how many innocent civilians are killed if they confirm the threat.


IMHO you might have police deaths rise by one or two, but what if that means 20 people who shouldn't have been killed by a cop arnt.

I just don't think the precent of people willing to die attempting to take a cops life is higher than the percent of police officers who jump the gun for the full spectrum of reasons...most I assume are human error and flat out being wrong about your gut feeling.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 04:42 PM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are really missing an important point....its nearly impossible to confirm...say in the dark, across a street, alongside a wall, or in a car...of what is or isnt a weapon. "Hey Officer Joe? Ya think thats a gun? Or just a cell phone?"

We have a bunch of innocent and now DEAD kids who didnt realize what could be misconstrued as a weapon...or having a weapon...or not. And some are dead because of trigger happy responding officers....true.

There is no way I can think of to confirm a weapon in every case, all the time, without fail...Yes. Its F'd up...youre right...But its the world you and I live in today.

If you want to say "whenever possible...to save the life of say a mentally upset autistic kid who doesnt have one no matter how it looks the opposite...there has to be a way to confirm there really IS ONE"...we've not found a sure fire way to effectively do that.

I wish there was...but it comes down to time. Often there isnt any...so it wouldnt always work. I agree there should be...but without some form of ESP...I dont think there is in every case, all the time...even if the family is screaming "he doesnt have a weapon...he's a challenged teen!"...it a very tough judgement call.

Thank you for the replies here...maybe even you and I talking here...can lead to others finding a way to confirm these situations....and save lives...on both sides.

Thanks again



And every single one of those cases where the officer didn't wait to confirm the threat, would still be alive today...


The real bottom line is how much do police deaths rise vs. how many innocent civilians are killed if they confirm the threat.


IMHO you might have police deaths rise by one or two, but what if that means 20 people who shouldn't have been killed by a cop arnt.

I just don't think the precent of people willing to die attempting to take a cops life is higher than the percent of police officers who jump the gun for the full spectrum of reasons...most I assume are human error and flat out being wrong about your gut feeling.




There is no way to do ANYTHING all the time... even if they killed perps on sight, a few would get lucky. You can't treat the average citizen as if they are a rapey serial killer. When the average person isnt...


What percent of the population is willing to be executed by a cops just to kill one??

Nearly all of these instances, the call started from a BS infraction that wasn't getting any real time...

Even the felonies weren't facing more than a couple years..

So these people decided to throw everything away in a 1 in a million attempt to charge the cop and take his gun?!?!

Take mike brown... obviously a garbage person..


But supposedly, facing no real time at all... he decided to try to kill the officer?!?!


What makes actual sense is Brown was acting squirrlie because of the gas station stuff and was about to run.

Wilson could tell and grabbed mike through the window, by the shirt.

Mike starts punching the officer through the window, not to get his gun, but to escape. No one had his name yet.

Wilson fired hiring him in the handd.

Brown now shot, realizes Wilson let him go and runs.


Then Wilson gets out of car shooting.

Hits brown in the back of the arm.

Brown stops prob to surrender, he has been shot at least twice. He doesn't want more I promis.

But Wilson never stopped shooting.


Now that isn't murder nor racial, just a crazy adrinaline filled situation that spiraled.





The officer could tell a



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 04:46 PM
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originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

What your missing is that it is many times a single MILLISECOND...a heartbeat...you havent time to make a call, ask your partner, radio ahead, use binoculars..

Its F'd up, I know...I agree...but its a great idea, but hard to do in a single breath or you could die...




I've had a gun to my head more than once.


It all boils down to what's better?

Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong?

Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse. The civilian wasn't paid armed and trained to be in that situation.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 05:16 PM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

What your missing is that it is many times a single MILLISECOND...a heartbeat...you havent time to make a call, ask your partner, radio ahead, use binoculars..

Its F'd up, I know...I agree...but its a great idea, but hard to do in a single breath or you could die...




I've had a gun to my head more than once.


It all boils down to what's better?

Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong?

Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse. The civilian wasn't paid armed and trained to be in that situation.


Seriously? A cop or two dying is better? So that cops record of actually busting bad guys for however long means nothing?

Wow!


By this scenario why do doctors even try to help those on their deathbed? I mean they're dying so why try to do anything? Isn't their time spent better by helping those that they know will make it?

Hell....let's just pull out of the slums and projects and trailer parks all together and let the folks there fend for themselves...police have better things to do than risk their own lives by going to the scene of a 911 call for violence or a crazed person or whatever right?



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