Pantheism is the doctrine that understands God as being all which is manifest in the universe (worms,waters, planets and popsickle sticks).

It is what I believe in.

But this notion, out of necessity, takes personality away from a 'Supreme Being'. Within it's concept, since everything is God (including you and I), there could be no seperate 'Entity'.

If a Mason is required to believe in God, does Pantheism fall outside the requirements for admission?

I would be interested in the 'why', whichever way the answers go.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by masqua]

Originally posted by masqua


If a Mason is required to believe in God, does Pantheism fall outside the requirements for admission?

I would be interested in the 'why', whichever way the answers go.

Pantheists are eligible to become Freemasons. The famous German poet and Mason Johannes von Goethe once said, "As a poet, I am a Pagan; as a Scientist, I am a Pantheist".

Many Masons are, and have been, interested in the Kabalah, which is generally interpreted as a form of Pantheism. Indeed, Baruch Spinoza, the philosopher known as the "Father of Modern Pantheism", studied the Kabalah in depth.

Some Masons with pantheistic leanings include the above-mentioned Goethe, Cagliostro, Mozart, Diderot, Albert Pike, J.D. Buck, Manly Palmer Hall, and of course me.

Originally posted by masqua
Pantheism is the doctrine that understands God as being all which is manifest in the universe (worms,waters, planets and popsickle sticks).

It is what I believe in.

But this notion, out of necessity, takes personality away from a 'Supreme Being'. Within it's concept, since everything is God (including you and I), there could be no seperate 'Entity'.

If a Mason is required to believe in God, does Pantheism fall outside the requirements for admission?

I would be interested in the 'why', whichever way the answers go.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by masqua]

I believe Pantheism does indeed fall outside the requirements for admission because, as masons need to profess a belief in a supreme being, everything, including popsicle sticks, could not be defined as a "being". Does Pantheism include belief in a creator?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Does Pantheism include belief in a creator?

I believe that it does.
As pantheism is a belief that everything is God, it's logical that the Creator is a part of that everything.

I see we agree in this view, MS...and, like Benedictus De Spinoza says: "beyond God can exist no substance".

However, those heretical views got him expelled from the Jewish community...as well, the family business was, for him, then forfeit.

I am reading his masterpiece 'Ethics' right now, which prompted me to ask this question.

In answer to sebatwerk, I would say the creator is in the process of creation, dreaming the universe. An ongoing work, so to speak.

even a popsicle stick is a being or atleast at part of a being . whether of the paper variety or the paper they both were once part of a tree.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
even a popsicle stick is a being or atleast at part of a being . whether of the paper variety or the paper they both were once part of a tree.

A popsicle stick is a being, but something that is a popsicle, a flower, a worm, a carburator, a house, etc. etc. is not a "being" because it is not a specific entity. I don't know if I'm right, but it doesn't really make sense to me otherwise...

What follows is my theological opinion, based on loose scientific understandings...

Take that popsickle stick and break it down into atoms...in this way it suddenly relates to everything else. For instance, the wood is bound to contain abundant water...as does every other living thing here on earth.

The atoms within that thin wafer are no different than those within a giant Redwood standing on a mountainside, or, for that matter, within me.

In this way we can see that all things are of the same basic substances... elements listed in the table every highschool taught .

And water is present throughout the universe...

The leap is in what atoms are constructed of...delving into quantum physics etc., and the realization that matter really is only energy...and does not truly exist as what we so blindly accept as 'material'.

If that is true, then all which exists is but a 'flame'...no more than a wisp of the ethereal manifesting itself to our dull senses. Once we assertain that our world is a chimerical terrestrial paradise (lol), it is easier to detach oneself and come to the conclusion that it is only a dream.

Praise the 'glue' which holds subatomic particles together... and the force which spins the electron, holding it within it's quick orbit around the nucleus.

I believe that God is the force which 'organizes' the shape of atoms...giving form. God is also the force which gives each particle life...for there is nothing which exists which does not vibrate...like breath upon a violin string.

Protons, Neutrons, Alpha particles etc are the bricks...
Muons, Gluons, Strange Particles, etc., are the clay and sand the bricks are made of...
Beneath the subatomic universe lies the true face of God...energy and the forces which shape it.

Those energies and forces are what bind us to the Greys, Reptillians and whatever life forms may exist in the far reaches of the most distant galaxies. There can be no substance other than that which exists and all of existance is without limit.

Indeed, the ground beneath our feet resembles and is as us.

Hence, God is omnipresent, omniscient and eternal, just like the Bible teaches us.

So...who is right? Sebatwerk does make sense, but I'm drawn to the happy allowances of ML, stalkingwolf (who I suspect may see NA traditions in Pantheism...of course I'm guessing there) and Leveller?






[edit on 22-1-2005 by masqua]

It must be stated very clearly that, not only may Pantheists become Masons, but a great many notable Masons have been outspoken Pantheists. As mentioned, it would be absurd for Masonry to recommend the study of the Kabalah if it did not allow Kabbalists.

Pantheists do not believe that a popsickle, in and of itself, is God. Rather, the pantheistic view is that there is only one underlying Essence, or Unity, that exists in the Universe, and that this Essence is Divine. Even though it was the philosopher Baruch Spinoza who coined the term "pantheism", this type of belief is far older than Spinoza, and was the theology of Pythagoras, Socrates, and Plato. It is simply the mystic's viewpoint.

Spinoza's argument, which was based on Plato's argument featured in the Crito and Phaedrus, is that something cannot be created out of nothing, and therefore, if God existed before the phenomenal world came into being, God must create phenomenal reality from Himself. Kant also conceded this point, equating the Platonic Forms with noumenal existence, i.e., "pure reason", which is Divine.

In the Kabalah, this is shown through the doctrine of Emanation, which proclaims that God did not create outside of Himself, but rather manifested Himself through categories, ultimately appearing to the individual's senses as Nature.

In the Legenda to the 28°, Brother Albert Pike writes: "May it not be that God and the Universe are one, and that He exists only in connection with it? If He created it, there was an eternity before it; and before it, said the old philosophy, God was silent, immovable, inaccessible, but did not exist, since existence is action, change, alternating preponderonce of forces?" (Legenda of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, by Albert Pike, 33°, p. 129).

A popsicle stick is a being, but something that is a popsicle, a flower, a worm, a carburator, a house, etc. etc. is not a "being" because it is not a specific entity.

I would disagree, a flower or any plant has a spirit essence, as do all forms of life (a worm) a house being built of wood components also may contain the
essence of the tree that it came from. there are those also that would argue that a house also takes on the essence of those that reside in it.

The carb is metal and metal does ultimately come from the earth. and dont tell
me you have never had a car that you swore had a mind of its own.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

"May it not be that God and the Universe are one, and that He exists only in connection with it? If He created it, there was an eternity before it; and before it, said the old philosophy, God was silent, immovable, inaccessible, but did not exist, since existence is action, change, alternating preponderonce of forces?" (Legenda of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, by Albert Pike, 33°, p. 129).

The same philosophy exists in Sufi Islam.
They explain it quite nicely as "God more than did not exist". It means that He was outside of the realms of human comprehension.

Originally posted by sebatwerk


A popsicle stick is a being, but something that is a popsicle, a flower, a worm, a carburator, a house, etc. etc. is not a "being" because it is not a specific entity. I don't know if I'm right, but it doesn't really make sense to me otherwise...

Heres an idea to help you understand.

Your hands, your feet, your liver, seperate, are they you? No. You are a collection of organs, cells, energy patterns, ect.

Consider all things like God's "cells" and you have Pantheism. All things in the universe are part of the total "body" of "God"..

Even popsickle sticks, auto parts, ect.

Originally posted by masqua
What follows is my theological opinion, based on loose scientific understandings...

Take that popsickle stick and break it down into atoms...in this way it suddenly relates to everything else. For instance, the wood is bound to contain abundant water...as does every other living thing here on earth.

The atoms within that thin wafer are no different than those within a giant Redwood standing on a mountainside, or, for that matter, within me.

In this way we can see that all things are of the same basic substances... elements listed in the table every highschool taught .

And water is present throughout the universe...

The leap is in what atoms are constructed of...delving into quantum physics etc., and the realization that matter really is only energy...and does not truly exist as what we so blindly accept as 'material'.

If that is true, then all which exists is but a 'flame'...no more than a wisp of the ethereal manifesting itself to our dull senses. Once we assertain that our world is a chimerical terrestrial paradise (lol), it is easier to detach oneself and come to the conclusion that it is only a dream.

Praise the 'glue' which holds subatomic particles together... and the force which spins the electron, holding it within it's quick orbit around the nucleus.

I believe that God is the force which 'organizes' the shape of atoms...giving form. God is also the force which gives each particle life...for there is nothing which exists which does not vibrate...like breath upon a violin string.

Protons, Neutrons, Alpha particles etc are the bricks...
Muons, Gluons, Strange Particles, etc., are the clay and sand the bricks are made of...
Beneath the subatomic universe lies the true face of God...energy and the forces which shape it.

Those energies and forces are what bind us to the Greys, Reptillians and whatever life forms may exist in the far reaches of the most distant galaxies. There can be no substance other than that which exists and all of existance is without limit.

Indeed, the ground beneath our feet resembles and is as us.

Hence, God is omnipresent, omniscient and eternal, just like the Bible teaches us.


[edit on 22-1-2005 by masqua]

:lol



So a popsickle stick can be the Supreme Being!

[edit on 25-1-2005 by Osirisrisen]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by masqua


If a Mason is required to believe in God, does Pantheism fall outside the requirements for admission?

I would be interested in the 'why', whichever way the answers go.

Pantheists are eligible to become Freemasons. The famous German poet and Mason Johannes von Goethe

Goethe was a Mason?! Jesus, those must've been some interesting papers!

Hey, wait. Now I know that occasionaly a mason will write up stuff as part of his function in the society, or for a special occasion or whatnot. Is it known if Goethe wrote anything? Is it kept as part of the private archive of that lodge? Seems it would be a shame if it was.

Is there anything in masonry that promotes releasing those sorts of things?

I mean, I understand that Goethe, and anyone else, would know what they are writting for, and might not've intended it for public use, but, yikes, what a loss for humanity on some of that!

Originally posted by Nygdan

Goethe was a Mason?!

He was a member of the Rite of Strict Observance, having become a Master Mason in Amalia Lodge at Weimar on June 24, 1780.

Hey, wait. Now I know that occasionaly a mason will write up stuff as part of his function in the society, or for a special occasion or whatnot. Is it known if Goethe wrote anything? Is it kept as part of the private archive of that lodge? Seems it would be a shame if it was.

All of Goethe's writings are in the public domain. His poem "Masonic Lodge" is held in high regard by Masons, as well as his essay "Masonic Jubilee".

Goethe's last words, "More Light!", are a line from Masonic ritual.

Is there anything in masonry that promotes releasing those sorts of things?
I mean, I understand that Goethe, and anyone else, would know what they are writting for, and might not've intended it for public use, but, yikes, what a loss for humanity on some of that!

All of his writings, including his personal letters to friends and family, that are still in existence have been published. Most can probably be found on the Internet.

Pantheism is not just the idea that god is a collection of seperate bits.
God is indivisably everything; an all-encompassing energy, that manifests multiple forms.
It is the entire universe. It is time and space, gravity and light,the wind in the trees, and the shimmer of the stars.
There is no seperation between 'things'. We view things as seperate in space, as a product of our faculties and limited comprehension.
We know that sound and light would not travel if there was no medium between us.
And we know that planets and galaxies are connected and held in place by 'dark' matter.
We know that the space between atoms is filled also with this energy (physicists estimate that of the total mass of the universe, only 20% is actually measurable).
There is only a continuation of energy throughout the universe, only the properties of that energy change. A huge fractal morass of fluxating energy patterns.
Humans are a product of this manifestation. Our conciousness is a tendril like part of the greater conciousness, connected to the hub like arms on a squid.
And the universe/god is constantly devouring itself and creating itself anew.
Perhaps it is learning of itself. Perhaps it gave things awareness so it may become concious of itself, and we are the means through which it can experience it. Who knows...
But Pantheists believe in god. Indeed, they believe in nothing else but god.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
All of Goethe's writings are in the public domain.

Ah, good. A wise decision on the part of his lodge, as its beneficial for everyone. I hope that other lodges behave similarly.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Masonic Light
All of Goethe's writings are in the public domain.

Ah, good. A wise decision on the part of his lodge, as its beneficial for everyone. I hope that other lodges behave similarly.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean; Goethe's Lodge had nothing to do with it. He was a professional poet and writer, and published what he wrote.

Cruzion...are you referring to the Holographic Universe, where every atom has 'knowledge' of every other atom, since they are all of the same 'One'?

If that was your intent, then I agree...and the popsickle stick remembers a hydrogen atom currently careening through space somewhere near Orion.

This connectedness is very current Quantum Physics and I love it. Even Stephen Hawkins would tell you that the more we understand, the more we begin to believe in a 'Great Architect'...I think he even says this in 'Black Holes and Warped Spacetime', but my son has borrowed it and now resides 150 miles from my desk.