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What is the second Amendment for?

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posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
There's something wrong with the people that saw Columbine on the news and still insist we need more guns in this country, not less. Something terribly wrong.

You don’t think 1/2 of the teachers being armed would have helped?

You don’t think the 10,000 +/- lives lost to guns every year (including Columbine) are outweighed greatly by the hundreds of thousands of lives saved every year by a gun without a shot being fired?

Guns weren’t the problem at Columbine, society was. How about we stop trying (unsuccessfully and illegally) to treat the symptom and start treating the illness.


P.S. Hey Rant, how ya doing? Been a while.




posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by RANT
There's something wrong with the people that saw Columbine on the news and still insist we need more guns in this country, not less. Something terribly wrong.

You don’t think 1/2 of the teachers being armed would have helped?


I guess. Or just two teenagers not having such easy access to arms.



You don’t think the 10,000 +/- lives lost to guns every year (including Columbine) are outweighed greatly by the hundreds of thousands of lives saved every year by a gun without a shot being fired?


I guess again. But then I'm not privy to the hypothetical database of lives saved by non-events.
Sorry, but sounds propaganda-ish.



Guns weren’t the problem at Columbine, society was. How about we stop trying (unsuccessfully and illegally) to treat the symptom and start treating the illness.


Well now you just sound like Mike Moore.
Seriously, that was the point of Bowling for Columbine. Not to ban guns at all. He merely mocked the macho, first person shooter, wild wild west mentality unique to Americans as compared to other countries that live in harmony with guns.

But if you try to take my first person shooter games and Schwarzennger movies away, I'll shoot you myself.



P.S. Hey Rant, how ya doing? Been a while.


Aiight, and you? Had dial up problems and a severe addiction to my latest PC war game (ironically) keeping me offline. See how it starts?



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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I guess. Or just two teenagers not having such easy access to arms.

Yeah, either way would work, but only one way would not infringe on anyone’s rights. BTW, Israel started having teachers go armed, and they haven’t had another school terrorism incident yet (to my knowledge.)




I guess again. But then I'm not privy to the hypothetical database of lives saved by non-events.
Sorry, but sounds propaganda-ish.
Well, I didn’t conduct the study so I can’t say for sure; the FBI did do the study, however. What they found was that hundreds of thousands of people use guns to deter an attack every year without a shot being fired. I think the number was actually 600,000 + per year. Now that’s allot of "wild wild west" justice right there, and allot of violence prevented. Can you imagine what that saves in law enforcement spending?



Well now you just sound like Mike Moore.

Well, that is of with my simplistic reply. I could defend myself very well on that one, but I think the internet has had enough Mike Moore discussions to fill a vomit bucket. Bottom line is right or wrong, the man is a liar.




Aiight, and you? Had dial up problems and a severe addiction to my latest PC war game (ironically) keeping me offline. See how it starts?

Yeah, I just moved and got out of the Army, I got like no time. I started a new job working Housing Authority here in Vegas, so I spend 10 hours per day, 6 days a week in the ghetto, then I get I get like 25 minutes on ATS a day (my wife gives me a time limit, I think if she could go back in time and kill Simon before ATS got started she would
)



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 05:40 PM
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The 2nd amendment states "a well regulated miliita"

The key word here is "militia" This means the organized militia and the unorganized militia. It doesen't mean it's not "organized" in a sense... The unorganized militia is just not technically set up by the government itself.

The Kentucky State Militia is an example of the "unorganized" militia
www.kysm.org...

I know plenty of people who have "illegal weaponary" Sure they are banned but there is no gestapo kicking your door in asking to give up your guns (Like In Iraq)


[edit on 25-1-2005 by RedOctober90]



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
Sure they are banned but there is no gestapo kicking your door in asking to give up your guns (Like In Iraq)

Automatic weapons are not illegal in Iraq, we always tried to open doors with the knob before we kicked them down, and what was the point of your post?



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Yeha ok, with was with that whole thing where they were rounding up guns from as many people as possible?

They may be legal but they still were rounding them up so that everytime a new Iraqi puppet government member comes around he doesen't get picked off



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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Um, yeah, ok buddy, keep amusing yourself there.

So, I still don’t understand what your original post had to do with the topic what is the second amendment for?


P.S. - According to the DSM IV, laughing when nothing funny was said is a symptom of schizophrenia. You OK?



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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Rant and those of you out there with similar views.

i HAVE used my handgun 3 times but never had to shoot someone. Having one and not needing it is MUCH better than needing one and not having it. should i ever have to use it - some poor (aka stupid) sucker is going to be one dead corpse cause i shoot like Merdoc from Lethal Weapon.


1. Rodney King riots - defended a halmark of scared women from rioters. diplay of handgun turned would be problem makers away from door

2. Attempted car jacking- again sight of gun makes would be trouble maker change mind

3. some moron attempted to bash in the steel, security, front door to my house 30 minutes after the new year started (probably drunk). unmistakeable sound of round being chambered and the very loud and firm announcement that i have a gun and am ready to use it seems to have changed his mind.

does any of this stuff get covered by the media- in most every case no or else it is back on page 24+ or limited to the ticker on some news show. no of my cases made it into the general media. go figure- guns preventing crime, kinda against the agenda ya know?

as to what the second amendment is for:
What nobody reads history anymore (well at least not the anti gun crowd)?
admittedly the founding fathers used what i would call "lawyer speak" when they framed the constitution. but it would certainly help to read some of the writings of those that actually put the document together and of many of the "philosophers" of the time that influenced them. (check out Ben Franklin and John Locke for starters). come down to it :

The 2nd amendment is there to give the PEOPLE the power to fight off an oppressive government because all governments are self propogating and eventually will become oppressive no matter how perfect it starts out.

(noticed one post compared our current level of freedom/taxation with that of the colonies- boy did they ever nail that on the head!)



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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launchpad,

The NRA magazines have a section called Armed Citizen that lists several stories each month just like the ones you mentioned.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 04:40 PM
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Also, received this the other day. Really makes you wonder if we don't need to turn the spotlight another way.


Doctors

a. The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year
are 120,000. c. Accidental deaths per physician is
0.171. (Statistics courtesy of U.S.Dept. of Health &
Human Services)

Guns

a. The number of gun owners in the U.S. is
80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all
age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is
0.000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times
more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do".

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE
HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout

Um, yeah, ok buddy, keep amusing yourself there.


Ok I will thanks buddy :-)



So, I still don’t understand what your original post had to do with the topic what is the second amendment for?


Why not? I am sure you never did something similar.




P.S. - According to the DSM IV, laughing when nothing funny was said is a symptom of schizophrenia. You OK?


Sure I am ok But what about you?



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Centurion,

i am aware of the NRA section in both of their magizines- paid off my life membership BEFORE i bought my first gun- but we can hardly call the NRA magizines actual 'media'. Kind of like preaching to the choir; the only people reading "American Rifleman" are the progunners. Moderate/undecided/and anti gunners really don't care. what i want to know is where are the stories on the evening news and in the morning paper? How about the interviews on Good morning America??


Unfortunately, the NRA has become so recognised and so hated by the mainstream/undecided i think their usfulness has been out lived and it is time for another lobbist organisation to stand up. Just the mention of the NRA makes some peoples blood booil when they would have otherwise been pro-gun. anyone heard of a decent alternate lobby?



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by James the Lesser
Also, thr army is the people, do you really think they will kill their own people? Hell, most are complaining about going to Iraq and killing civillians, what do you think they would tell the gov. if they were ordered to kill USA civillians? I highly doubt, no matter what they signed saying they would do whatever, that they would kill USA civillians. So unless a bunch of republican senators and Dick Cheney take up arms, no real need to worry about the gov. Love to see that, hell, only what, 2 republicans actually fought in a war? John McCain and Powell. The rest used daddies money and power to get out of them, doubt they will start fighting now.


yeah, James i actually think that on a large part the military will. Are you so young to have missed Waco? Ruby Ridge? and the other half dozen events that actually made it to the news, and the countless many that have not?

the FBI were just people too- but due to the "spin" put on the situation by the commanders on scene they didn't waste any time getting aggressive with those at Waco (probably a whole other thread some where) once the bullets started flying nobody on the federal side was going to back down because now their propoganda was now "justified" (homicide). it only takes a select few people in the right places to cause a whole lot of action. Kind of like demolition- it really does not take very much explosives to bring down a huge building if they are in the right place. conspiricy? you betya and it doesn't have to be as big as most people believe. most people are sheep and will go with the flow once the action kicks off.

i expect isolated fire fights here and there- but largely those fighting back are going to be portrayed as the bad guys and the rest of the population is going to sit back and let it happen, maybe even encourage it. Our forefathers were telling us not only is it important that we maintain our right to bear arms but we should also be organised SEPERATE from the government.

call me crazy but history does tend to repeat itself. peace.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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launchpad, check out Gun Owners of America and Jews For The Preservation Of Fireamrms Ownership.

Both great groups, and they dont support gun control like the NRA does.

I am tooooo damn tired to give the links right now, I'll put them on later.

Night!



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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This is a perfect example of what the 2nd Amendment is for: Don't see how trying to talk (as some here would suggest) with the holdup guys would have done anything except get the storeowners both killed.

Atlanta storeowners fire back at pair who tried to hold them up

Updated Jan. 26, 2005, 10:26 a.m. ET
ATLANTA (AP) - When two men walked into a popular country store outside Atlanta, announced a holdup and fired a shot, owners Bobby and Gloria Doster never hesitated. The pair pulled out their own pistols and opened fire.
The armed suspect and his partner were killed. The Dosters won't be charged, according to local officials, because they were acting in self-defense.
"I just started shooting," said Gloria Doster, 56. "I was trying to blow his brains out is what I was trying to do."
Shoats Grocery & Package near Crawford, 70 miles east of Atlanta, is a well-known spot where locals stop for breakfast biscuits or lunch. Gloria Doster said the two men who came there Monday had something else in mind.
She was rearranging boxes of soda by the store's front door when a man wearing a wig walked inside, the fake hair draped in front of his face.
"I asked him, 'Can you see to walk?'" Doster said. Then she noticed a second man behind him wearing a mask. He announced a holdup.
One man grabbed Gloria Doster and pushed her toward the register. She said the other kept his gun on her 62-year-old husband, who also goes by the name Shoats.
She tried to open the register, but one of the men told her she wasn't moving fast enough and tried to shoot her husband. He missed -- and his gun jammed.
At that point, Bobby Doster pulled out a .380-caliber handgun and shot one of the suspects. Gloria Doster then went for a 9 mm pistol she keeps near the register.
"All hell broke loose," she said. "I was trying to shoot and dial 911 at the same time."
Both suspects took cover behind the store's meat counter as the Dosters opened fire. Gloria Doster said she doesn't know how many bullets were fired, or how many times the suspects were hit.
Police arrived about five minutes after receiving Gloria Doster's call; the suspects died a short time later at a hospital.
The bloodshed, nevertheless, startled Gloria Doster, who has been around guns all her life, and has used them for target shooting. "But I never figured I'd have to use them on anybody," she said.
She said the worst thing that's happened in the seven years the couple has owned the store was an after-hours break-in by teenagers three years ago. The burglars were promptly arrested.

[edit on 1/27/2005 by centurion1211]



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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Good post Centuion! Not like the store owners had their own pesonal cops standing around to protect them. Just comes a point where you have to be responsible for your own protection and in order to exercise that responsibility one may need to exercise some 2nd amendment rights as well.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
launchpad, check out Gun Owners of America and Jews For The Preservation Of Fireamrms Ownership.

Both great groups, and they dont support gun control like the NRA does.

I am tooooo damn tired to give the links right now, I'll put them on later.

Night!



thanks Cavscout!

the Jewish site seems particularly interesting. Going to send that one to my former girlfriend and her family. Gosh, loved that girl but she was as liberal as they come and it totally boggeled my mind that she and her Jewish family were totally anti-gun. i could not believe that they forgot how the holocaust came about. the first step in opperssing the people is to make sure that they cannot fight back. All the more reason for the second amendment.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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Here are several accounts of armed citizens defending themselves with their legally owned firearms.

Article

Note the sidebar showing studies indicate that firearms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. Shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate, imminent threat to life, limb, or, in some cases, property.

Where firearms are banned - look what actually happens

Article

Last, on gun ownership:

Article

Note the paragraph on right to carry states and their crime statistics:

The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 38 today. In 2003, states with RTC laws, compared to other states, had lower violent crime rates on average. Total violent crime was lower by 27%, murder by 32%, robbery by 45%, and aggravated assault by 20%.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Outdated how? The intent was that no government that could come into power would be able to outgun, and therefore enslave, the common man. Nothing has changed since then, other then the fact that we are less free then the colonists were under British rule.


Isn't this just symptomatic of the gun-crazy american culture, though? I agree, citizenry need to be able to fight off any government attempting to transgress on liberty. However, do we really need average joes armed to the teeth?

Also on this point, where were the supporters of the 2nd amendment when the patriot act came into force? They were praising Bush on another good move to restrain those damn pinko liberals. Isn't this the kind of thievery of liberties that the 2nd amendment was meant to protect against?



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by General Zapata

Also on this point, where were the supporters of the 2nd amendment when the patriot act came into force? They were praising Bush on another good move to restrain those damn pinko liberals.


I think you would be hard pressed to find a Libertarian supporter of the Patriot Act. Most of us look upon the Republicans with about the same feelings we look upon the Democrats. Even among most Republican supporters of the second admendment they support on the grounds of self-deffense and hunters rights not it real meaning which is deffense against the government.

I am sure the Republicans love of the patriot act will end when the Democrats are in power and all these Big Government Laws come back to bite them in the ass.



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