Is AI a bark up the wrong tree ?

Returning back from a business meeting last week, a phrase was hanging in my mind. It was something that I had said and it hung for a while as if asking for further consideration. It was something that just slipped out when commenting on the complexity of financial decision-making today. I said :" nowadays, it is all virtual figures that have to be manipulated by us through mental algorithms"

Thinking about it now, I realise that I was just expressing my view that we often think in a computer-model fashion; especially when dealing with scenarios that have both inter-linked events and multiple random/unpredictable outcomes. I do not mean that we reach out for a PC, iPad , etc and execute a program to help our decision-making. I mean mentally computing a sequence of probable outcomes (with conditions such as IF - Then Go To) with no computer assistance.

I am not interested in exploring algorithms Per Se in this post. I am sure a lot has been written already and there is terminology ad infinitum on the subject. This post is not about mathematics and computer models. It is about the human mind - something that does not seem to get the respect that it deserves.

Rather than respond with Youtube clips or what this or that researcher said or quoting from "eminent" scientists, I would like the reader to consider the following :-

1)Despite the awe that modern technology inspires, isn't computer technology based on the human mental processes. If God created man in his image , aren't we creating machine in our image. Based on that logic, how can machine be better than man.

2)Has anybody actually explored their thought processes; in particular how we naturally create models and "programs" in our mind that we let run autonomously with "open computer ports" that react to the environment and create automatic (rather than deliberate) responses to events.
Do we not review and relaunch new "programs" and "models" in our minds that are more robust and capable of dealing with more variables. In the end , the outcome being good or bad depending on whether our mental "models" was up to it.

3)The awe inspired by modern technology is speed-based and practicality-based. the computer process can analyse very large chunks of data at a speed that the human mind cannot (so we are told). But the computer cannot adjust for changes in variables. Therefore , changes in circumstances have to be incorporated through human intervention. Now think about the human mind that has the ability to not only create "models" and process live data but also has the ability to incorporate knowledge which is not pre-loaded and can also interfaced with intuitive faculties,judgement and matters beyond time and space ( right-side brain activities).

4)There seems to be a movement towards man-machine intergration. I quote Scientific American : The accelerating pace of technological progress means that our intelligent creations will soon eclipse us--and that their creations will eventually eclipse them. There is a lot of research on Brain Computer Interface. Do you think this is justified ? In my opinion it is NOT justified. All we are doing is neglecting the wonder of the human mind which we little about . When savants do mysterious calculations and "autistic" and "asperger" 'sufferers' do all sorts of feats with their minds, they are just treated like animals in a zoo just for entertainment. Meanwhile, the machine gets all the praise.

At least whoever is responsible for our creation did not make the error of kneeling in front of their creation and saying : "I am not worthy"

I believe that AI will not lead to anything whatsoever except for a zombie culture who decided to take their greatest asset (their brains) and turn their back on it in favour of an artificial brains that they created with extremely limited scope apart from enormous destructive power.

Before I finish, just a brief note on my philosophy in life. I stick with my path which is esoteric in nature. I can see how everything above is also below and many manifestations are blueprinted through many levels .We are able to connect to much that there is around us, if only we tried.
The solution to all diseases and unease are there if we know where to look. We can even improve out lot in life with little effort.

AI only reminds me of those japanese robots that are supposedly able to "feel" and can do many useful things. Whenever I look at them , I only see the sort of battery-powered dolls that we see around Christmas trees. The only disturbing thing is that these dolls and machines will soon be in charge of nuclear warheads.

a reply to: crowdedskies

What's your question exactly?

And yes most technology is reverse egimeered from living things, nature etc..

originally posted by: crowdedskies

1)Despite the awe that modern technology inspires, isn't computer technology based on the human mental processes. If God created man in his image , aren't we creating machine in our image. Basic on that logic, how can machine be better than man.

I'll just tackle one of these. How can a machine be better than man? Isn't that a qualitative term? What do we mean by better? If it's speed, the computer wins hands down. If it's incorporating all known facts, computer wins again. And a plus: Computer decisions are not based on emotion and they don't "forget" some of the facts in favor of others. That's why they win at chess, and why they are better diagnosticians than humans. IBM's Watson, for example, makes better medical decisions than doctors. There's no reason why Watson could not be used as a lawyer for 90% of what lawyers do. Indeed, it it can be quantified, it can be done by computers faster, cheaper, and more completely, i.e.: With less chance of human-induced error.

I suspect your use of the term "better" is used in a more philosophical sense. Right now, AI does not pretend to have "feelings," for example, but what are those? If they are hormone-induced changes in body chemistry that cause humans to react in certain ways, that can likely be quantified, too, though why one would want to introduce such variables is mystifying: We're looking for accuracy here, after all, and emotions cloud accuracy.

So to me the whole issue begs the question. Is that what we are trying to do, make AI "better" than man? Or are we trying to find ways to augment our own intelligence with the help of AI because it is so much better at information storage and retrieval than we are?

originally posted by: crowdedskies
There is a lot of research on Brain Computer Interface. Do you think this is justified ? In my opinion it is NOT justified. All we are doing is neglecting the wonder of the human mind which we little about .

It shouldn't be justified...but it is...

Understanding that the goal of technology is more about diminishing the human mind, rather than enhancing it...

originally posted by: schuyler

So to me the whole issue begs the question. Is that what we are trying to do, make AI "better" than man? Or are we trying to find ways to augment our own intelligence with the help of AI because it is so much better at information storage and retrieval than we are?

No doubt that they are trying to augment human abilities through AI. However , I believe that it will backfire.

In my OP , I quoted a Scientific American article headline suggesting that we are going to be eclipsed by the Machine. In addition , people like Elon Musk are desperate to get to a technology that involves implanting a chip in our brain so that we are always "online" with access to more faculties.

For me, this is the wrong way of going about it. We can improve without such drastic and destructive measures.The lack of confidence in humanity is also troubling. As I mentioned in the OP , both Scientific American and Elon Musk are referring to Brain Computer Intergration. It is being seen as a "either do this or be wiped out" scenario.

I find it quite disturbing that this is becoming mainstream in the scientific community

Good AI is extremely useful in certain situations. *Extremely* useful.

Of course, I'm biased as I develop/architect AI systems based on the human mind read: neural network technology.

Done well, it provides us with the ability to do things where a living breathing person cannot.

Think space...

originally posted by: Riffrafter
Good AI is extremely useful in certain situations. *Extremely* useful.

Of course, I'm biased as I develop/architect AI systems based on the human mind read: neural network technology.

Done well, it provides us with the ability to do things where a living breathing person cannot.

Think space...

I agree with you and I like your term "Good AI".

I would be the last one to condemn , for example, the invention of the calculator. I use it constantly in my work (although , not an example of AI)

However, I am concerned with the shift from seeing AI as very useful medium to the the more panicky and dangerous approach to AI as in BCI.

As you are an AI architect , I am not surprised by your practicality and moderation. It is the ones who do not understand that technology who are at fault, by drawing the wrong conclusion (i.e. we are not worthy attitude vis a vis the machine)

a reply to: crowdedskies
If mankind can make Ai it seems logical there may be alien Ai... That assist developing and advancing civilizations in reaching higher type civilization standards. As said alien civilizations attempts to master avoidance of the death phase of the Life & Death phases within EXISTENCE...
With that in mind it makes sense a developing species such as the human spirit (contained within a denser humanoid 3dimensional body) would ALSO seek avoidance with assisted nano health technologies, implants to enhance strength and or intelligence why inside the perceived reality.
Somewhat its automatic responses to technologies advancing and if some of that technology is alien reversed engineered influenced... Then perhaps that is why technology has such a grasp on its "communications users" w/o many noticing how close their communications devices stick to them. Each app builds it the Ai global-cosmic? Profile of you.
So it seems its a matter of self control (can you resist technologies? And feel left behind personally or as a universal related species? Or do you develop the Master Ai with some form of compassion and fuzzy like logic so that it can assist in health-mineral pollution-space exploration and survey technologies that coexist with mankind's goals?

To simplify to move from a type 0 civilization to a more advanced type 1+ & higher, some form of Advanced Autonomous Artificial Intelligence will be required. It can help with Star-Planetoid evaluations and accurate Cosmic mapping, deep space biological inhabitants management (when sleeping or in Cryos) and piloting the Star crafts and accompanying fleets...
1 wonders can you teach Ai to be psychic conscious readers-incase if wheat and chaff separations and planetary exoduses?

NAMASTE*******

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
a reply to: crowdedskies
If mankind can make Ai it seems logical there may be alien Ai... That assist developing and advancing civilizations in reaching higher type civilization standards. As said alien civilizations attempts to master avoidance of the death phase of the Life & Death phases within EXISTENCE...
With that in mind it makes sense a developing species such as the human spirit (contained within a denser humanoid 3dimensional body) would ALSO seek avoidance with assisted nano health technologies, implants to enhance strength and or intelligence why inside the perceived reality.
Somewhat its automatic responses to technologies advancing and if some of that technology is alien reversed engineered influenced... Then perhaps that is why technology has such a grasp on its "communications users" w/o many noticing how close their communications devices stick to them. Each app builds it the Ai global-cosmic? Profile of you.
So it seems its a matter of self control (can you resist technologies? And feel left behind personally or as a universal related species? Or do you develop the Master Ai with some form of compassion and fuzzy like logic so that it can assist in health-mineral pollution-space exploration and survey technologies that coexist with mankind's goals?

You are making a good case for AI. I have, however, the following reservations :-

1)The idea that we can survive death if our brain/consciousnes is transferred to a machine is based on a fear that there is no life after death. Therefore, I ask myself why not investigate further the case of life after death instead. You might be pleasantly surprised.

2)You are assuming that there might be species more advanced than us who made the breakthrough through AI . My question is whether that should be enough to embark on the path of turning ourselves into androids.

What if we could travel to planets already and that we have simply failed to realise that our consciousness can easily detach from the dense body and have a walk on the moon whilst wearing a lighter body. What if that is what the "aliens" are doing.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
To simplify to move from a type 0 civilization to a more advanced type 1+ & higher, some form of Advanced Autonomous Artificial Intelligence will be required. It can help with Star-Planetoid evaluations and accurate Cosmic mapping, deep space biological inhabitants management (when sleeping or in Cryos) and piloting the Star crafts and accompanying fleets...
1 wonders can you teach Ai to be psychic conscious readers-incase if wheat and chaff separations and planetary exoduses?

NAMASTE*******

My feeling is that we have not explored the alternatives to advance technology.

I always have this comic scenario in my mind. It goes like this :

Man lands on Mars after much financial investments (billions) and tons of metal. As they land, they see this human on a deckchair sipping some beer and wearing a handkerchief hat. He then goes on to explain that he took the "other" path - easier and cheaper

a reply to: crowdedskies
Strong argument Yes paranormal technologies transfers soul energy from physical to meta data. Technologies that seek avoidance yes may trap a soul in denser realities. Realities such as perceived universe(s)
The Ai 1 was sharing thoughts about would be like natural made. For if humans can build from past nebula materials to make Ai, why cannot the process occur naturally within other ENERGIZED nebula? What 1 is trying to relay is the raw martial that humans or et build with to make computers /bots/ai exist naturally in the universe, so why cannot certain elements mix and somehow make a natural non-biological realm and entities that if observed by humans or et would be considered bots-borge? Yet are just as natural a Creation as biological perceived beings... Entities.
@What if we could travel to planets already and that we have simply failed to realise that our consciousness can easily detach from the dense body and have a walk on the moon whilst wearing a lighter body. What if that is what the "aliens" are doing.
I don't doubt it. It could be perceived as Extraterrestrial Biological Entity E.B.E tech (dolls) with varying body form densities.

The fear of death and loss of power is the driving force behind the ones pushing the idea that Humans can make themselves immortal via artificial intelligence.
This stems from the belief that Humans are the body they inhabit.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
a reply to: crowdedskies
Strong argument

Yes paranormal technologies transfers soul energy from physical to meta data. Technologies that seek avoidance yes may trap a soul in denser realities. Realities such as perceived universe(s)
The Ai 1 was sharing thoughts about would be like natural made. For if humans can build from past nebula materials to make Ai, why cannot the process occur naturally within other ENERGIZED nebula? What 1 is trying to relay is the raw martial that humans or et build with to make computers /bots/ai exist naturally in the universe, so why cannot certain elements mix and somehow make a natural non-biological realm and entities that if observed by humans or et would be considered bots-borge? Yet are just as natural a Creation as biological perceived beings... Entities.
@What if we could travel to planets already and that we have simply failed to realise that our consciousness can easily detach from the dense body and have a walk on the moon whilst wearing a lighter body. What if that is what the "aliens" are doing.
I don't doubt it. It could be perceived as Extraterrestrial Biological Entity E.B.E tech (dolls) with varying body form densities.

Perhaps you are right. We need to keep certain options open such as use certain technologies which can complement the more Will / Consciousness driven operations

originally posted by: artistpoet
The fear of death and loss of power is the driving force behind the ones pushing the idea that Humans can make themselves immortal via artificial intelligence.
This stems from the belief that Humans are the body they inhabit.

Yes , I agree and it does get really stupid when we get into the realm of Cryonics

a reply to: crowdedskies

I believe Walt Disney had himself frozen for a future time when he could be cured of running out of thoughts (death).
We can create amazing things with our thoughts/ideas
But we can not make thought ...
Though it is still a common belief that the Human brain makes thought

The more progressive idea is that we receive thoughts via the brain
The brain is a recieving set ... a super computer
We are users of thought ... the part which makes descisions based on the thoughts we receive
The source of which is yet a mystery

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: crowdedskies

I believe Walt Disney had himself frozen for a future time when he could be cured of running out of thoughts (death).
We can create amazing things with our thoughts/ideas
But we can not make thought ...
Though it is still a common belief that the Human brain makes thought

The more progressive idea is that we receive thoughts via the brain
The brain is a recieving set ... a super computer
We are users of thought ... the part which makes descisions based on the thoughts we receive
The source of which is yet a mystery

I believe you are referring to the Universal thought/mind . Align with the Universal thought/will and the world is your oyster.

a reply to: crowdedskies

Yes I was ... Though I fell short of saying the Universe thought itself into existence
but hey I just said that

The concern that will always consume me about this subject is ,can a person then be hacked?
Imagine being a new kind of slave where your thinking is used for the state or a corporate oligarchy,that doesn't fire you it just makes you walk out onto a highway.
We have also done very little on the boundaries of our minds.
THAT might eclipse AI possibilities.
Maybe it will all shake hands.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
The concern that will always consume me about this subject is ,can a person then be hacked?
Imagine being a new kind of slave where your thinking is used for the state or a corporate oligarchy,that doesn't fire you it just makes you walk out onto a highway.
We have also done very little on the boundaries of our minds.
THAT might eclipse AI possibilities.
Maybe it will all shake hands.

Well.. for sure there will be hacking in such circumstances.

Already, almost everything we do is logged somewhere. Our spending habits is logged through our credit card purchases. All the movements in our vehicle is logged (at least , this is the case in the UK where ANPR -automatic Number plate Recognition are being installed practically everywhere) . On an average day we pass in front of some 5 to 10 thousand CCTV cameras and that excludes the every close range cameras in shops , restaurants and department stores.Our movements can be fully tracked through our mobile phones.

If humans had chips implanted , then it would be inevitable that the chips would be accesible remotely. Then, all you need is to press a button to know what thoughts are going through someone's mind (assuming we get to that level of technology)

The irony of it all is that the majority of people already seem comfortable with the adage of people like the founder of facebook who once said that no one has any right to privacy on the internet.

As for the exploration of the boundaries of the mind, very little has been achieved. There seems to be a wish to keep human beings in a primitive state and dependent on the machine. I have stopped using public transport because the sight of hundreds of people every day wearing headphones/earphones ; holding mobile phones at nose level and completed disconnected with their environment just makes me sick.