Protests erupt after man killed in officer-involved shooting in Charlotte

a reply to: windword

I can't speak for every police academy or police department, but I can assure you that I was never taught to view every situation as life threatening.

That said, cops have been murdered for nothing more then being a cop.

Furthermore, there have been far too many incidents to count that started as something minor but ended up with a cop being murdered.

As such, every shift I remain vigilant.

Just as I remain vigilant when I am off duty and out in public with my family.

The survival instinct cannot be suppressed.

a reply to: Grambler
Of course I believe the police are entitled to a fair process, but as long as the police police themselves all we can do is go on their word that said process is "fair". Body cams can be disabled and police lie like anyone else. And given the fact that other police will side with their own by default, it throws any notion of fairness out the window.

I'm very biased against people who use their position in power to take away the rights of others, and give no more transparency other than "take our word for it".

a reply to: windword

There's a difference between viewing everything as potentially life threatening and viewing it as life threatening.

Being aware that the "routine" traffic stop has the potential to get sideways in the blink of an eye is not the same as thinking it already has.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: Grambler
And given the fact that other police will side with their own by default, it throws any notion of fairness out the window.

That is not fact, that is your opinion.

a reply to: Grambler

now imagine in the era when cameras werent available, how many of those sworn to protect had gotten away with murder corruptions, and other illegal activities simply because they are cops.

the only reason most LEO sympathizers can be persuaded that there are now 'bad apples' is because of irrefutable evidence pointing to the fact that its not a 'few bad apples'; its more of an indoctrination, a 'rite', and automatic pass to immunity against the law.
-Today, if a random person i dont know flags me on the street and says police just recently shook him down and took his property and gave him ticket citations based on falsified accusations, my immediate answer will be 'I believe you, find a lawyer and get eye witness accounts'. its not bias, it due to empirical evidence and statistical probability of someone falsifying accusations against police vs police falsifying against the public...
i.e.




to listen to their tone of voice while making false accusation is indicative of disregard, or a level of comfort with their lies as if its not lies, or its just another routine fake accusation.
now imagine if this was about a death of a suspect, imagine the level of corroboration or what other members of LE would casually go through to fabricate evidence.
these accounts have been reported for decades, and the police were almost always not wrong... until camera phones became commodities and police, who wear a uniform to protect and serve, began to stand trial for their crimes.
bad cops are not becoming a bad trend, the trend is now they are getting caught more and more.


-people are outraged because Kaepernick is protesting in uniform, yet their is ambiguity with someone who acts worst than the people they protect the public against, whilst in an 'official state uniform', not a pro sports jersey.

so yea, there's room for bias at this point in 2016

a reply to: odzeandennz

Sure, there are bad cops, and I am all for more transparency and accountability for the police.

And I understand wanting to distrust people in power, I am like that too.

So when I see Obama, Hillary, many other politicians, almost all of the mainstream media, and all of academia spinning the constant narrative of white cops hunting black men, I am skeptical.

But I will look at the evidence. And when I do, I see that many people of other ethnicitys are shot by police, but it is not covered. And I see many of the narratives such as hands up don't shoot were a lie. And I see the threats that Darren Wilson gets because of the lies that were told about him. And I see the riots and devastation that results from these lies. And I see the racial division these lies are causing.

Then we have the Justice department, and there injection into everyone of these cases with their agenda. If people distrust the police investigating themselves, shouldn't they distrust the even more powerful justice department?

I am sick and tired of the lies. So I will wait for fact to come out in the case before I make up my mind. If this cop is guilty, then I hope he is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

a reply to: Grambler

i respect your opinion.

but unfortunately, i dont think any video showing disparities in the apprehension of a person of color, vice one not of color can make you think maybe there is an unfairness in the immediate posture taken by police against men of color.

you ought to search for yourself and see video footage of white males armed and walking toward cops, or waiving their weapons, or posing a threat to others and find footage of any shooting of men of color who 'posed a threat'. if you think there is no difference between the two then this back and forth is moot. im not trying to convince you of anything, if you are unbiased, you should look at the cases when non blacks are killed and the conditions and the extremes that are needed before a single shot is fired, versus getting killed within seconds on police arrival on scene, even if good Samaritan callers of 911 mention weapon could possibly be a toy, or unarmed 'suspects'.


cheers.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig
Show me evidence to the contrary. Are you really denying that police officers give each other the benefit of the doubt over regular citizens in an altercation? Or that a police officers word holds more weight in court than a non- LEO?

a reply to: angus1745

The guy was on PCP

The PCP guy was in Tulsa, OK -Terence Crutcher - shot by white female LEO in uniform-when his car was stopped

Charlotte NC guy was Keith Lamont Scott - supposedly reading a book in his car while waiting for his son at bustop-shot by undercover black male LEO -not in uniform- while with other LEO's looking to serve warrant on another person

Google is your friend -

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: Grambler

i respect your opinion.

but unfortunately, i dont think any video showing disparities in the apprehension of a person of color, vice one not of color can make you think maybe there is an unfairness in the immediate posture taken by police against men of color.

you ought to search for yourself and see video footage of white males armed and walking toward cops, or waiving their weapons, or posing a threat to others and find footage of any shooting of men of color who 'posed a threat'. if you think there is no difference between the two then this back and forth is moot. im not trying to convince you of anything, if you are unbiased, you should look at the cases when non blacks are killed and the conditions and the extremes that are needed before a single shot is fired, versus getting killed within seconds on police arrival on scene, even if good Samaritan callers of 911 mention weapon could possibly be a toy, or unarmed 'suspects'.


cheers.

I also respect your opinion on the issue.

My problem is your evidence seems anecdotal. Sure you could find videos of white people acting violent not getting shot, and black people not being violent getting shot. I could also point out videos of the reverse.

Instead of searching for videos, why don't we see what the numbers show. The most recent study was done by a professor at Harvard who happens to be black. He called the results of his study the most shocking of his career.

They examined 1,332 shootings between 2000 and 2015, coding police narratives to answer questions such as: How old was the suspect? How many police officers were at the scene? Were they mostly white? Was the officer at the scene for a robbery, violent activity, a traffic stop or something else? Was it nighttime? Did the officer shoot after being attacked or before a possible attack? One goal was to determine if police officers were quicker to fire at black suspects.

In shootings in these 10 cities involving officers, officers were more likely to fire their weapons without having first been attacked when the suspects were white. Black and white civilians involved in police shootings were equally likely to have been carrying a weapon. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force.

www.nytimes.com...

You catch that. Unarmed whites are more likely to be shot by the police.

Here is another thread where this is being discussed. Look at all of the numbers on my first post on that page.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you have studies that show otherwise, I would definitely be open to seeing them.

I am sorry the facts just do not back up that police are shooting innocent blacks way more than whites. Yet you wouldn't know any of this by listening to Hillary or Obama or the media or academia.

Look at the situation in Charlotte here. A black cop shoots a black man, and Hillary claims she will talk to white people to solve this problem. Meanwhile, rioters chant "hands up, don't shoot" as they riot, a known lie that was spread by the media. The media is all over the case discussing the rcail problems of the police, the very same media that not 3 days ago were appalled at Trump not waiting for facts to come out about the bombings.

The agenda is clear, to cause racial division. I will not fall for the lie, and instead will look at case on an individual basis, and hold cops responible no matter what race the person is they abuse.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: Grambler

i respect your opinion.

but unfortunately, i dont think any video showing disparities in the apprehension of a person of color, vice one not of color can make you think maybe there is an unfairness in the immediate posture taken by police against men of color.

you ought to search for yourself and see video footage of white males armed and walking toward cops, or waiving their weapons, or posing a threat to others and find footage of any shooting of men of color who 'posed a threat'. if you think there is no difference between the two then this back and forth is moot. im not trying to convince you of anything, if you are unbiased, you should look at the cases when non blacks are killed and the conditions and the extremes that are needed before a single shot is fired, versus getting killed within seconds on police arrival on scene, even if good Samaritan callers of 911 mention weapon could possibly be a toy, or unarmed 'suspects'.


cheers.

Actually I read a study that said they are more likely to shoot thr armed white guy. It was done out of Houston using there crime statistics since 2000. In so at least in Houston you don't 2ant to be white and have a gun those cops will kill you.

a reply to: UnBreakable
I was aware of the black male LEO who shot was an undercover cop -ergo plain clothes - last night while watching this unfold in my local news media.

My thought even then was - oh crap there will NOT be a body cam --what undercover cop goes in with a clearly visible body cam--all CMPD (Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Dept)Patrol Officers have had body cams for a year now

This AM my fear was confirmed - wsoc tv

9:45 a.m.: CMPD Chief Kerr Putney said at a press conference that Officer Vinson was not wearing a body camera. Only uniformed officers were wearing cameras. Putney said that the law does not let him release the body camera video but said the grieved party can have access to it.

Is this loop hole now going to be SOP with LEOs?

My second question last night was:
ok so family of the guy said he was reading a book --What was the title of said book? --inquiring minds want to know
Imagine how volatile it could be if he was reading something like the Koran

Another question not answered by LEOs -- what caliber gun did the guy supposedly have/ or was reaching for?

And yet another question -- Who was to be the original recipient of the arrest warrant and is that person still at large or have they been arrested? What was the warrant for? Since CMPD had an undercover LEO in tow I would assume the warrant could be for drugs/guns/theft -something an undercover op would be needed for.

But nowhere I have read --and I've read alot--have stated any of these details.

Details, Details, Details

Will be interesting to see how these questions will be answered in the coming days --if at all

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

Of course not and that's not what I said, but of course you knew that. As such, there's little point in responding further to you.

FYI-another interesting local tidbit:
I usually watch Tour Of Duty (old tv show) on the local retro channel - Get TV -- as my afternoon break
Today's epi was to be

Tour Of Duty 1989 | Promised Land Word of Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination lowers black soldiers' morale.

I saw that preview last night (I always look ahead) and went oh crap -Oh hell no!! Really?? Now?? What a coincidence?!?

Imagine my surprise at 3PM when I turned on the tv and some black & white documentary on the roaring 20's was on even when my Dish guide was clearly stating it should be that epi of Tour of Duty.....

Guess someone else at the local programing level in Charlotte had the same "oh hell no" moment I had!!
And for our younger viewers that don't get the connection here's the wiki history link to the riots that followed MLK's assassination back in the day.

Yes I'm in the Charlotte viewing area.
Would be interesting if anyone else not in the Charlotte viewing area saw that epi today

Better control thru tv programing right? Or is it shutting the lunatics off at the pass before the idiots get anymore bright ideas (and I mean both black and white; young and old--we have an equal opportunity representation of lunatics here in the Carolinas--we ain't choosy)

a reply to: Swills

This!

a reply to: crazyewok

That's the other thing....this is NOT African culture...I've never seen any black American as yet anyway, that actually follows any semblence of African culture. They are American end of story. However, if they really really want to follow African culture then they're welcome to it and I doubt very much they would last the distance. Having been raised in Africa I can tell you the "culture" is...erm ....erm ....not what these people think (whatever that may be!)

a reply to: Grambler

i would love to see similar scenarios of black shootings- in a car, or child playing, or whilst having a heart attack, or whilst on the ground with hands up all the way getting or running away from a Leo- in relation to scenarios of white shootings. what that study didnt stress was the circumstances, evidence, or need for deadly force. and if the other statistic in that same study on the NY times site are ok, then i guess its ok. but for those on the side of 'more likely' and a +- ratio of 20, 30, im sure they are not ok with it.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: Grambler

i would love to see similar scenarios of black shootings- in a car, or child playing, or whilst having a heart attack, or whilst on the ground with hands up all the way getting or running away from a Leo- in relation to scenarios of white shootings. what that study didnt stress was the circumstances, evidence, or need for deadly force. and if the other statistic in that same study on the NY times site are ok, then i guess its ok. but for those on the side of 'more likely' and a +- ratio of 20, 30, im sure they are not ok with it.

All I can tell you is what the study looked at. I am 100% postive they did not have video on every shooting, so if that is what you are looking for, this study does not have that.

I guess I just have to ask you to read the report for yourself. Here is how they said they calculated the data.

They examined 1,332 shootings between 2000 and 2015, coding police narratives to answer questions such as: How old was the suspect? How many police officers were at the scene? Were they mostly white? Was the officer at the scene for a robbery, violent activity, a traffic stop or something else? Was it nighttime? Did the officer shoot after being attacked or before a possible attack? One goal was to determine if police officers were quicker to fire at black suspects.

In shootings in these 10 cities involving officers, officers were more likely to fire their weapons without having first been attacked when the suspects were white. Black and white civilians involved in police shootings were equally likely to have been carrying a weapon. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force.

But police shootings are only part of the picture. What about situations in which an officer might be expected to fire, but doesn’t?

To answer this, Mr. Fryer focused on one city, Houston. The Police Department there let the researchers look at reports not only for shootings but also for arrests when lethal force might have been justified. Mr. Fryer defined this group to include encounters with suspects the police subsequently charged with serious offenses like attempting to murder an officer, or evading or resisting arrest. He also considered suspects shocked with Tasers.

Mr. Fryer found that in such situations, officers in Houston were about 20 percent less likely to shoot if the suspects were black. This estimate was not precise, and firmer conclusions would require more data. But in various models controlling for different factors and using different definitions of tense situations, Mr. Fryer found that blacks were either less likely to be shot or there was no difference between blacks and whites.

Here is an example of the data the received from police departments.

How Officer Reports Were Coded
Excerpt from a typical Houston Police Department summary
Suspect Race: Black
Suspect Sex: Male
Suspect Age: 32
Suspect Injury: Wounded
Suspect Weapon Used: Firearm
HPD Firearm Injury: No Injury

Capital Murder (Attempted):
On duty HPD officers responded to a robbery. One susp. was arrested and handcuffed. Susp produced a weapon fired at HPD SGT. who returned fire; susp fled the building firing at a second officer who returned fire. Susp fled and was found later with gunshot wounds.

But even when they didn't rely on police narratives, the results still showed blacks were less likely to be shot.

The study, a National Bureau of Economic Research working paper, relied on reports filled out by police officers and on police departments willing to share those reports. Recent videos of police shootings have led to questions about the reliability of such accounts. But the results were largely the same whether or not Mr. Fryer used information from narratives by officers.

www.nytimes.com...

And the study does not seem biased. It goes on to show that blacks are more likely to have non lethal forced used on them than whites.

So it did take the police version of circumstances into account, and it showed that unarmed whites are more likely to be shot than unarmed whites.

If this is true, does it make you question the narrative that Hillary, Obama, and the main stream media is pushing?

Ok, ready for round 2?
via wsoc tv

5:10 p.m.: A planned demonstration is underway at the corner of Trade and Tryon streets in uptown.

For those not from here - this is ground zero of the big biz district -- big bucks/tall buildings/$$$apts--
HQ for BofA -they let employees go home early in anticipation of this;
Duke Power-they're upping security;
parks & rec are emptying public trash cans to prevent airborne debris being thrown (aka water bottles);
DT bistros/pubs bringing in outdoor /sidewalk tables and chairs

So far it's just a silent protest.
Scratch that - now they are marching thru downtown

The one I'm going to be watching is the protest to be held starting at 7PM at Marshall Park, which is near the county courthouse & jail and inside the i277 DT inner loop (interstate freeway) mostly DT traffic

(moving it away from the very busy i85 trucking lane???)

Wow-just broke-wsoc tv has citizen phone pic of gun Scott used lying next to his body!! Corroborating CMPD assertions that Scott did have a gun. I'll see if I can find documentation.

Also internet/twitterverse scuttlebut is that city buses are to the target of violence tonight -- b/c of that iconic image captured last night

a reply to: SCGrits

Wow-just broke-wsoc tv has citizen phone pic of gun Scott used lying next to his body!! Corroborating CMPD assertions that Scott did have a gun. I'll see if I can find documentation.

Source WSOC tv Joe Bruno twitter feed; gun is at bottom, just right of center; blurred image is Scott's body


question now is there a time stamp pic on ?? placed after or was it indeed there as #$@^ went down?