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Staying in the Light

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posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: geezlouise

In general, the temptation to get 'angry' at another can seem pointless.

It's understandable as an existing feeling - but it should be explored and made coherent to the Self instead of expressed at the Other.

Again, Self-Awareness. How do you respond when another person, feeling negative feelings - at YOU - speaks with these feelings? It's almost like a quantum effect is in motion: their way of attending and feeling to you PROVOKES the same sort of feeling relation.

If people simply pay attention to these experiences, HONESTLY, and no succumb to the temptation to dissociate and replace what is known with a more desired (idealized) explanation, than Human beings wouldn't suffer the way we do.

Our suffering, and our problems, are fundamentally related to the economic system we live within and the metaphors - competititon/scarcity - that mobilize our feeling-relations.

The Hebrew Bible makes just this statement - Cain vs. Abel - "CaYiN" from the Hebrew verb "QaNaH" - to buy. Abel, from the Hebrew HeVeL, "vanity", as in Solomons statement "vanity of vanities".

It even locates this psychospiritual transformation in ways of being and surviving - the agriculturalist vs. the pastoralist. The World feels different when you aren't stressing yourself for 12 hours in working the field - and then becoming "proud" of your accomplishments (Cain's son, Enoch, literally means 'city' in Hebrew i.e. the agriculturalist's egoistic pursuits of material accumulation necessarily leads to cities).

Even worse, how does the stressed egotist experience the Abels - the people less constrained, more happy and at ease in their existence (and God "accepted" Abels sacrifice; but refused Cains) - but with annoyance? It's true, because each of us can sense how it can sometimes feel when the relaxed, feminine and at ease person seems to be succeeding - and a part of us, our "inner cain", having been groomed in a capitalistic and competitive context, experiences their simple way of being as pathetic and weak?

And so, the Cains kill the Abels because the former are insane - dissociative and idealistic - and don't see its fundamental relationship to their desire to accumulate, build cities, and show off (ironically, to other people) how powerful they are.

Capitalism is as old as the neolithic. Whereas the pastoralist way of being goes back at least as far as 200,000 years ago.




posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

I'm with you 110% on basically everything you've said. I honestly think you're being more objective about it than most, but I'm biased too. Cause I am human, lol. We can't escape.

To me, it's more about putting everything in it's right place and less about balance (and like you also said, even less about dualism), but I understand you. Everything has it's place.

I like you.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Honestly, believe what you want - just don't hurt and prey upon other people.

Do you engage in child sacrifice, or does hurting or bleeding others, play a part in your thinking system? If yes, that's evil - and wrong - and you deserve to be opposed.

If you're a person who honestly understands and acknowledges the right for Other people to exist, than there's no problem.

It's a sad and story state of affairs that this way of thinking needs to be articulated, as if it weren't eminently reasonable to honor the Others needs - but historically speaking, pagan religions, not all, but many, seemed willing to go this far in their religious practices.

Is this not, at root, a patriachal i.e. masculinistic imposition on the nurturing tendencies of the female? It always amuses me how females involved in such hyper-mascilinistic religions don't seem to recognize how unfair the whole arrangement is.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

You claim to be a scientist - yet the science on the matter is being strongly established in affective neuroscience.

Emotions are borne from action tendencies. Humans were borne in care - indeed - traumatology shows that the brain actually loses neuronal and glial volume in negative, stressing and traumatic contexts, whereas interpersonal psychotherapy based in mindfulness and compassionate receptivty produce the opposite effects.

Can you accept this evidence, or is it easier to dissociate it?



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Cite the papers then neighbour. Cite the proven facts. Single papers don't count. You've made statements, not posted evidence).

Oh and I am a scientist
You hopefully will never need to take any of the Pharmaceuticals I've worked on, but thats what I do for a living.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:47 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Ooo you'r religion bating
Nice try. Post the evidence on neopagans doing those things. You really are a biased little hommonin aren't you?


I'm quite serious, back up your accusations. OR post your understanding of my spiritual path, and I'll fix that for you.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:47 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

You're making sense, yes.

And I'm glad you brought this up, because I too just literally considered how people get angry about irrelevant things (like the curvy and pretty school teacher in a tight fitting dress and heels- people are outraged)... but like you just pointed out, if people become honest with themselves? Then we could eliminate a lot of unnecessary suffering just by self awareness and letting go of old paradigms, and ego, and putting things into a truer perspective.

Basically, what you're talking about is the crab mentality to me (cain suffered from crab mentality- aka was angered and jealous over abel). And I agree with what you're saying I think. Sometimes anger is INAPPROPRIATE, too. Depending.

I'm not sure what a pastoralist way of being is like.
edit on 20-9-2016 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Why not share your ideas instead of having a go at mine

Share an idea you have, any idea and we can discuss it
Alternatively which particular idea I have expressed is getting your goat



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:53 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet

I shared my ideas neighbour, and you had a go at them. Why in the world would I share ideas with you again?

Also, you seem to be projecting, nothing you have said has gotten my goat. If you can't take vigorous discussion, don't engage. Toparaphrase you "our bias[es] is a form of censoring ideas you do not like". You don't seem to be open to it.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: Noinden




Scientist dedicate life times to their passion some never find what they are searching for


Too many. You can go to your university library website portal (I use UofT onesource) and just type in "traumatology" "PTSD" and "neurogenesis". You'll get post-mortem studies of cell nuclei in regions like locus correulus, in PTSD (war-traumatized) people vs. controls, or in vivo imaging studies which show volumetric losses in the OFC, ACC, and Dorsal cortex compared to increases in the amygdala, BNST and areas related to threat.

This is not surprising at all but perfectly consistent and consonant with origin of life studies, epigenetic research, systems biology and ethology (Tinbergen, Lorenz) and more generally the phenomenon of punctuated equilibrium - the real mode and way organisms evolve and change.

If you subscribe to neo-darwinism, your views are outdated and out of touch with the direction biology, psychology and inter-disciplinary fields based upon systems theory are moving. It seems we might ultimately end up living in a world full of ecological connections to one another.

People of interest in the field in question - The Estonian neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp has been important, but the ethological work of cyberneticists in the 50's led to Bowlby, attachment theory and a very sophisticated and attuned developmental psychology, traumatology and relational (non-freudian) psychoanalysis.

Does competition exist in Nature? Sure, but it is undeniably ancillary to cooperation and symbiosis as the main mode of self-organization.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:01 PM
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a reply to: geezlouise

There is a modern movement towards characterizing emotions as light and dark. Its very new age (Abrahamically influenced really) , and its intellectually dishonest.

Someone physically attacks us, we need to get angry, and defend ourselves? OR I guess roll over and take it?
Someone does better than us, we need to strive to do even better, reach for the moon. OR I guess dream and do nothing?

As I said in my first post, there is a song that the Queen guitarist (Brian May) wrote "too much love will kill you". Its not actually (as many assume) about Freddie Mercury dying of HIV, but rather the disintegration of Brian's first marriage. The so called "light" emotions when out of controll are as bad as the "dark" ones, "every time".

There are even studies that these "negative" emotions are good for you too


The way to a long and happy life, and peaceful existence is .... moderation. Its one of the virtues in my faith
But to be Poly-Anna's and "every thing is just fine" and denying the "icky dark feelings" is unhealthy.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

No, I'm not at a university neigbhbour, I work in industry. However you made the claim, you supply the evidence, or recant. That is how these intellectual discussions go. Make a claim that has a citable source, supply said citation, or it did not happen


I've not spoken very much of my beleifs here, yet you seem to be projecting them onto me. Why is this? Why are you making assumptions? Conformation bias perchance?



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:05 PM
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you really are a biased little hommonin aren't you?
a reply to: Noinden

Why the name calling? I'm not name-calling, so please don't name call!

Is there not a real history of child sacrifice in the Human past? This is well known, and is primarily associated with agricultural deities.

I have no idea what your spiritual path is because I don't know you; and as an individual, you may have a particular way of making-meaning that is different from others.

All I know is, "demon" worship operates by de-correlated i.e. unreasonable and self-serving behavior. Furthermore, because we become enlivened by particular interpersonal contexts, we become loyal to those contexts - and the feelings they produce for us - i.e. it can be enormously difficult to have an objective meta-cognitive perspective upon what we do. The Hebrew bible seems to describe this dynamic by describing the antinomian "irritation" the Cainanite state of self organization can feel: it resents the conscience, recursive part of awareness for its instigating guilt and shame - and like I always say, the Human despises no emotion the way it despises shame and weakness: but why is that other than because the Human fundamentally needs the positive affectivity of the Other?

Yeah, so, if you do messed-up things, you're going to stay loyal to those things (feelings) and will likely experience reasonable accounts like the present one as "irritating", i.e. because it challenges those processes and affects which literally enliven your brain-mind. So, that's your "coherency", even if it is sub-optimal and perverse from a more objective i.e. science based perspective.

But I trust you are not such a person.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: Noinden




Someone physically attacks us, we need to get angry, and defend ourselves? OR I guess roll over and take it?


If someone attacks you, yes, you defend yourself. No one is saying that you should "roll over and take it".

But mindfulness - is this "abrahamic", or simply Human reason? Attributing all rational thinking to "jewish" thought, as some people have a habit of doing, basically eliminates every Human form of thinking besides the small-minority which choose not to notice the subtle ways we mess with one another.

We are FEEDBACK processes - human to human. Just like cells self-organize with reference to other cells, and atoms to other atoms, same thing with persons.

This view - if science is to progress and reach its ultimate fulfillment - should not be dissociated, although some minds simply cannot tolerate its truth.

Buddhists, "Abrahamists" and secularists, not biased by a ridiculous spirituality, can accept what the scientific evidence shows - what reason shows - and not resent or be tempted into resenting reality for the way it actually works.




But to be Poly-Anna's and "every thing is just fine" and denying the "icky dark feelings" is unhealthy.


As far as I'm concerned, people should look to Buddhism for sophisticated modes of thinking.

Belief CONSTRAINS - you literally situate within the flow of your neurological process constraints. So saying negative emotions are needed is really nothing more than you - and your developmental history - instituting within the flow of your phenomenology a belief - a constraint - that makes you feel you need to be a certain way.

But again, you speak rather vaguely. I'm not speaking so much about sexual temperance as about war, stealing, and lying.

If you feel you "need" to do the above, you are simply delusional.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:17 PM
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a reply to: geezlouise

Pastoralists were hunter gatherers who moved from place to place, i.e. not becoming "committed" to the material realm they moved through.

The Bible is apparently ascribing wisdom to this way of being.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

I get what you are sayig about a "bottom up" approach ... that sounds rude



I think you are right to some extent in that any belief should be able to hold up to scrutinity
Though this does not mean the idea is wrong if not provable through the scientific method ... unless disproved ... it is a belief
Knowledge is life long quest and as such it will never let you down
Science has much to contribute as has the arts and all Human endevour
Everyone has a part to play no matter what their station in life

Emotions come from wanting your own way
Inspiration comes from impartiality ...

As Einstien said "A man should look for what is and not what he thinks should be" or something like that
But I am sure you get my drift so to speak

Some one put me straight once she said " You demand the truth but for what reason"
Intention is key ... how we choose to use the thoughts we receive ... the choices we make










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posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:27 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Sometimes shame can be irrelevant/pointless, too though. Sometimes we feel shame when really, imho, we shouldn't.

I guess personally, I just seek to put everything in it's right place and respond properly to all emotion. But sometimes the right place can change, and how to respond changes, depending on what data I have access to at any given point of time.

What you are saying is making sense to me.

a reply to: Noinden

I don't buy into the "light/dark" duality stuff anymore so I'm with you there.

Once I realized "if you love your body, you will hate the poison that enters it," I understood that hate is not dark, love is not light. They both come from the same place. In a way, light is like all emotion/feeling to me the same way it encompasses all colors, and the lack of light is like the lack of emotion. So there is a duality to me, but it's more life/death than anything? It's physics? All emotions point towards life and are entangled. But I also believe that there's definitely, imho, basically misunderstood/misguided emotions, which are really irrelevant to our survival(or even work against our survival- like you said, even love can become negative to us, when it turns into obsession for example, lol). Those can be sorted out, hopefully, with certain self-awareness and readjusting of perceptions.
edit on 20-9-2016 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Hey ... Apologies for mis judging you if that is the case

You know sometimes words are not enough to convey intent
Face to face and some knowledge of the other person helps
But this is what it is us two strangers talking via keyboards
Unable to see if the other person is smiling or frowning

But for stupid smileys

edit on 20-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:46 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Name calling? No I am making an observation. You are a hominin right? Homo sapien? You are showing biases.

"Demon worship" "messed up things".

You are making assumptions on what a neopagan is, or does. Biased ones.

Also the "hebrew bible" come now, can't you call it what it is the Tanakh.

Either ask what my practices are, or don't make assumptions on what they are.

I'll give you a hint, I am a hard polytheist, that means I see all gods as legitimate, but none as supreme.



posted on Sep, 20 2016 @ 04:53 PM
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I'll give you a hint, I am a hard polytheist, that means I see all gods as legitimate, but none as supreme.
a reply to: Noinden

Sorry to but in ... But do you believe all the gods exist in reality or are stories we tell ourselves


edit on 20-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)



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