Mainstream Islam Is The Antithesis Of Western Liberal Values (BY THE NUMBERS)

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

The question is, can YOU deal with the actual issue, or is trying to frame this around a whole religion like all the other Islamaphobes whose blogs you linked the only tool you have in your toolbox?

Protecting bigots? I'm protecting the Muslims I know who love Allah and don't want to hurt anyone, but just want to live their lives in peace. I'm protecting the Muslims who are unfairly lumped in with people from ultra-conservative, violent, hateful cultures. I'm protecting Muslims who are raising their daughters to be doctors and lawyers and engineers. I'm protecting Muslims who have never raped a woman in their entire life, and who wouldn't hesitate to condemn ANY man who raped a woman (and believe me, there are plenty of non-Muslim males who have raped plenty of women). THAT's who I'm protecting.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I dont know anything about all that. I normally dont spend any time all year worrying about other peoples religions, sexuality, and so on.

Then what are you complaining about them for? Sharia courts and Beth Din courts are both religious arbitration courts. And neither one's rulings supersede the laws of their host countries.

For example, if 2 practicing Muslims are getting divorced, they'll typically talk to their local Islamic leaders to work out the details. This is the "arbitration" process, and it will happen whether or not an official "Sharia court" is set up. But if those leaders agree on a solution that is against the law in that country, the ruling can still be taken up in a legal divorce court (and any illegal activities can still be prosecuted). The same process can happen for any other situation that people would rather settle an issue out of court.

But now that I finally got sucked into figuring out what all this "Social Justice" stuff is about, and how one of the biggest things 'they' go CRAZY about is this so-called "Rape Culture", for the liberal platform to be about going nuts over criticisms of Mainstream Islam (in practice) as we saw Ben Affleck there, you know what when I look out across the the world most anti-woman culture it has to be Islam. If there's a "Rape Culture" it is Islam (in practice).

That's simply not true. Take one hour out of your life and ask the women you know if they've ever been raped. Then ask them about the religious affiliations of the rapists. I guarantee you that you will quickly realize that rape is a global atrocity that exists in large numbers in every demographic. Not to mention, any Muslim who rapes someone is doing it in spite of what the Qur'an teaches, not because of it. In fact, all extra marital sex is forbidden in Islam.

And dont get me wrong. I realize the Holy Bible has many of those 'stone them to death' etc etc etc kind of passages in it as the Quran. But why it is the way Islam plays out in practice when "it" just cant seem to gt along half as good as Christians the past 100 years, or whatever, is just too much. Its just the antithesis of Western Liberal Values (which by the way were born of descendants of the Christian faith). The finer points of such, whatever.

For the record, the Qur'an doesn't have stoning to death. That's in different traditions & regional teachings. And which "Islam" are you talking about? There are many different denominations and "schools of thought" within Islam, some with vastly different teachings. Why are you constantly painting all Muslims with the same brush? That's like thinking all Christians shun electricity just because Amish people traditionally do.

Oh & being a "descendent of the Christian faith" doesn't mean anything. Most Western atheists are "descendent of the Christian faith". Not to mention, many Western liberal values are the opposite of traditional Christian teachings. So I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here.

I think the rapid outflow effect we've been seeing is a big part of the problem. When they come trickling out as I assume they always did I see it as getting one effect (like how its been here int he US for decades). But when they just start DUMPING out across the lands, in big groups, and end up in big colonies, assimilation goes kaput.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you're talking about refugees, then that deals with people leaving war or oppression (which is typically required to be considered for "refugee" status). And if you're talking about economic immigration as a whole, that depends on the individual. Some leave for economic reasons while others may have left for other personal reasons. Just like with every other demographic of immigrants.

Or to put it another way, the vast majority of Hispanic people are Christians. Does your argument still stand for the "problems" with modern Christianity being the cause of so many Hispanic Christians leaving their Christian-majority countries to come to the US? Or do you acknowledge that they are people with their own reasons for emigrating?

muslimstatistics.wordpress.com...

Here goes one of those wretched BLOG POSTS I just followed thru randomly, which includes a article by Dispatch International, which according to wikipedia they are slanted and often labeled "racists". Knowing how liberals love to racist label anyone critical of what they cherish, no surprise there. BUT DI's DEAL IS BESIDES THE POINT.

But what is the article about, oh poll data from "WZB Berlin Social Science Center", who going by Wikipedia can you criticize them??

What was the poll?

Do you think sharia is more important to you than the laws of the country you live? (66%)
Do you mean that there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran that should apply to all Muslims? (75%)
Are you saying that Muslims should return to their “Islamic roots”? (60%)

The name of the blog post: "Most European Muslims want sharia"

Now going by that title, and the unbiased poll results, is that title as I used it inaccurate???

Now, also int he blog post was some added perspective from the blogger. The blogger claims:

What exactly is included in Sharia law:

Beheadings
Stonings
Hangings
Crucifixions
Honor killings
Genocide
Burning infidels alive
Supremacy/global domination
Warfare/conquest
Beatings
Torture
Limb amputations
Genital mutilation
Death to apostates
Forced conversion
Slavery
Sex slavery and rape
Misogyny/sexism
Women enslavement
Wife beating
Child marriage/rape
Brutality against homosexuals
Censorship
Dictatorship
Bigotry and hatred
Robbery and pillage
Extortion of nonbelievers
Persecution and/or death for blasphemy/atheism
Animal cruelty
Prohibition of music/singing
Destruction of pre-Islamic antiquities
Etc., ad nauseam

Now is that inaccurate?

Yeah, the muslims certainly aren't very friendly to "western values," but many of their most reprehensible beliefs are shared by their christian counterparts. If christians pushed for equality for all I may see things differently, but history says that christianity and their "western values" have opposed every rights movement for centuries.

Islamic belief is only part of the problem. The greater problem is religion in general.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Protecting bigots? I'm protecting the Muslims I know who love Allah and don't want to hurt anyone, but just want to live their lives in peace. I'm protecting the Muslims who are unfairly lumped in with people from ultra-conservative, violent, hateful cultures. I'm protecting Muslims who are raising their daughters to be doctors and lawyers and engineers. I'm protecting Muslims who have never raped a woman in their entire life, and who wouldn't hesitate to condemn ANY man who raped a woman (and believe me, there are plenty of non-Muslim males who have raped plenty of women). THAT's who I'm protecting.

So you know what a 'handful' of Westernized Muslim's, youths? Are you in the EU?

Are they the Mainstream?

You do realize this thread is about Mainstream GLOBAL Islam, right?

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

mic.com...

a reply to: kaylaluv

Good for them.

Now what they need to do is figure out how to work over the language. When Muslim & Islam both are the main words we 'over here' (them included) all have to use to identify ALL of them (especially the crazies 'over there') that's on them to figure it out. If it's left up to "us" then you get terms like Islamofacism, which actually is pretty accurate, but I doubt the "moderates" over here will want to use it. All I know is I'm sure they don't want me doing it for them, nor should I presume to be able to.

Until they set up an easy to follow, until they provide us all the language "tools" to deal with this in a productive way: to bash people as bigots for criticizing the dark nature of the Mainstream is to coddle the Mainstream.

They gotta figure out how to set themselves apart.

BUT DO THEY WANT TO?????

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Militants. Extremists. Terrorists. These are the words you use to describe the horrible people who do horrible things to innocent people. Muslims are not responsible for those horrible people who hijack their name and the name of their religion to do these horrible things. It's up to them to condemn them (and they do), and it's up to us to recognize the difference between Muslims/Islam and the militants/extremists/terrorists.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Now what they need to do is figure out how to work over the language. When Muslim & Islam both are the main words we 'over here' (them included) all have to use to identify ALL of them (especially the crazies 'over there') that's on them to figure it out. If it's left up to "us" then you get terms like Islamofacism, which actually is pretty accurate, but I doubt the "moderates" over here will want to use it. All I know is I'm sure they don't want me doing it for them, nor should I presume to be able to.

Why would they need to work over the language to satisfy people such as yourself? Do some words or phrases trigger your feelings? It's not good enough that they denounce radical Islam. You want them to do it in the language you see fit.

Sounds to me like you want them to talk in a way that is pleasing to you. You want them to coddle your sensibilities and if they don't...you think they are coddling the mainstream.

Absolutely absurd.

a reply to: Lysergic

I get the idea, but I respect Christianity. But otherwise good image.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Okay. Good.

Except you wouldn't believe my confusion this summer when ignorant to the left/right arguing over this kind of stuff (over the past few years), I kept seeing people say things like 'its been 5 years since Obama said the phrase Islamic Extremism' (or however long, whatever).

I kept seeing it and kept scratching my head until I figured out the full scope of this PC stuff.

And what it told me was, going by Obama's example, even criticizing EXTREMISM is well will get you labelled a BIGOT etc.

To illustrate the point, in the OP I included this crazy bit:

New Army Manual Orders Soldiers Not To Criticize Taliban
Here is a strong indicator that the Obama Administration’s crusade to appease Islam has gone too far; a new U.S. military handbook for troops deployed to the Middle East orders soldiers not to make derogatory comments about the Taliban or criticize pedophilia, among other outrageous things.

It gets better; the new manual, which is around 75 pages, suggests that Western ignorance of Afghan culture— not Taliban infiltration—is responsible for the increase in deadly attacks by Afghan soldiers against the coalition forces.
...
The draft leaked to the newspaper offers a list of “taboo conversation topics” that soldiers should avoid, including “making derogatory comments about the Taliban,” “advocating women’s rights,” “any criticism of pedophilia,” “directing any criticism towards Afghans,” “mentioning homosexuality and homosexual conduct” or “anything related to Islam.”

So what gives?

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

NO. Criticizing extremism is not the problem. Criticizing Islam is the problem, because when you criticize Islam, you are lumping the millions and millions of Muslims who have hurt no one in with the horrible people who have hijacked the religion of peace and distorted it beyond all reason.

a reply to: introvert

The people triggered here would be Ben. Triggered over criticizing the dark nature of Mainstream Islam. SO I offer a solution for how they might adapt the language so that people can criticize said dark nature without smearing Westernized moderates, and now you chime in saying "why should they"?

That tells me you might get off on the language as is being inherently loaded and thus ensuring this kind of stupid ad hominem ordeal will unfold every time people who believe in Western Liberal Values criticize the barbaric nature of Mainstream Islam. Meaning, you're agenda is to coddle it, if that is the case (unless you have an alternative explanation).

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

To illustrate the point, in the OP I included this crazy bit:

New Army Manual Orders Soldiers Not To Criticize Taliban
Here is a strong indicator that the Obama Administration’s crusade to appease Islam has gone too far; a new U.S. military handbook for troops deployed to the Middle East orders soldiers not to make derogatory comments about the Taliban or criticize pedophilia, among other outrageous things.

It gets better; the new manual, which is around 75 pages, suggests that Western ignorance of Afghan culture— not Taliban infiltration—is responsible for the increase in deadly attacks by Afghan soldiers against the coalition forces.
...
The draft leaked to the newspaper offers a list of “taboo conversation topics” that soldiers should avoid, including “making derogatory comments about the Taliban,” “advocating women’s rights,” “any criticism of pedophilia,” “directing any criticism towards Afghans,” “mentioning homosexuality and homosexual conduct” or “anything related to Islam.”

So what gives?

More right-wing nonsense. There is nothing wrong with telling the soldiers to keep their heads down and avoid unnecessary violent confrontations.

a reply to: kaylaluv

So now we're talking in circles at last.

I've offered a solution. Meanwhile I showed how Obama has set the tone where any criticizing of 'any' of it (the dark stuff) is to be hush hush. Well that is coddling it.

Meanwhile, if any of us have half a sense, and are intellectually honest, we'd have to admit that in 95% of the time people "bash" "Islam", they aren't talking about the moderates. Unless we're going to all assume the moderates are collectively stupid, they should get that too.

Yet my impression of this, as evidenced all the time I see in ATS (including this very thread), and that spectacular example video of Ben, everything someone criticizes the DARK nature of Mainstream Islam Ben etc gets triggered and starts crying about 'oh what about the poor moderates I know'. NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT YOUR FRIEND. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EXTREMISTS.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

To illustrate the point, in the OP I included this crazy bit:
New Army Manual Orders Soldiers Not To Criticize Taliban
Here is a strong indicator that the Obama Administration’s crusade to appease Islam has gone too far; a new U.S. military handbook for troops deployed to the Middle East orders soldiers not to make derogatory comments about the Taliban or criticize pedophilia, among other outrageous things.

It gets better; the new manual, which is around 75 pages, suggests that Western ignorance of Afghan culture— not Taliban infiltration—is responsible for the increase in deadly attacks by Afghan soldiers against the coalition forces.
...
The draft leaked to the newspaper offers a list of “taboo conversation topics” that soldiers should avoid, including “making derogatory comments about the Taliban,” “advocating women’s rights,” “any criticism of pedophilia,” “directing any criticism towards Afghans,” “mentioning homosexuality and homosexual conduct” or “anything related to Islam.”

So what gives?

More right-wing nonsense. There is nothing wrong with telling the soldiers to keep their heads down and avoid unnecessary violent confrontations.

Okay then, even criticizing the dark nature of it (do I need to remind you what that is?) is a no no hush hush????

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT YOUR FRIEND. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EXTREMISTS.

That's not entirely true though...
Unless your suggesting moderates only make up about 15% of Islam according to some of the polls you're citing.


I don't know any extremist Muslims, & as a Muslim, I've met many fellow Muslims.


If I did a poll I could get 100% stats speaking against the funny little Sharia list you posted above.
No, it is not "accurate"...


Saudi Arabia, is currently the most extremist Sharia nation in the world, and even they'd be disgusted by most of that list you shared.
& I have no sympathy for Saudi Arabia either.

I just know bull when I see it.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Okay well if there's some polls in specific you'd like to break down for us that's help us understand this. BTW: Are you in the EU (where there's a constant mass FRESH inflow of them), are are you in the US (where its more of a trickle effect)?

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

NO. 95% of the time, Islamaphobes say that there is no such thing as moderate Muslims, that ALL Muslims hate the west and want to kill all infidels. This type of talk leads to a distrust of anyone who even looks like a Muslim. This type of talk leads to banning all Muslims from entering this country. This type of talk leads to "monitoring" Muslim neighborhoods (while at the same time fighting for the rights of privacy in other neighborhoods where crimes might happen). This type of talk WILL lead to violence against innocent Muslims. This is why Obama is careful not to bash Muslims or Islam.