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Who or what is "the devil"? Does the devil exist?

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posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 01:34 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

There are several groups who claim the title Illuminati (More than just two).

My point being that non have shown proof they are the authenic one ... well not to the public
Which is no surprise when one understands the need for secrecy

Adam Weishaupt was the first to call his group "Illuminati"
Though on studying his letters he eludes to the Illuminati having been around throughout Human history
Indeed he states that the Illuminati work and have worked through other names

Yes you can find a group calling themselves the Bavarian Illuminati today ...
Also many other groups claiming the title Illuminati

Any who claim to follow Satan or any other diety can be dismissed as frauds
Any who wish to artificially depopulate the Earth of Humans can also be dismissed as frauds
Any who practice sacrifice of any kind can also be dismissed

Any who claim to protect the Human Race may be considered
Any who attempt to guide all peoples towards self soveriegnty and liberty can be considered
Any who have no religion or political affiliation can also be considered




posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet

Illuminati is the same thing as the ancient term ''wise men'' or Shaman (from Shem or Shemosh).

If you are truly illuminated you don't need to join an indoctrination program or cult, you would see that it's a trap and want nothing to do with it.

Weishaupt was a puppet for Frank and Rothschild who were Sabbateans, possibly the least enlightened men ever born playing lead the follower.

'' Want to know a secret? take this oath and do what we tell you and well teach it to you little by little so you don't notice your being brainwashed.''



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: Malocchio

Can you provide proof of your claims regarding Adam Weishaupt
Also to which oath do you refer ... You need to be specific if you want a discussion



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 04:49 PM
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a reply to: Malocchio

And yet the Sabbateans converted to Islam.

It's strange business this mysticism stuff. Sometimes, I find it too overwhelming to think about.

So much easier to just concentrate on living in the present with others and celebrate living - being - in fun, joy, play, care and awe.

Oftentimes though I find that people naively - or tendentiously - seek to identify the sabbateans, who were antinomian (against laws) with orthodox Jews, who, of course, are obsessed by the performance of 613 laws - a thing that naturally overwhelms the minds of non-Jews because of its intense difference with the way we live.

Yet, if they're good and decent people - kind, patient and compassionate (to other Jews) - it would be a mistake to simply identify them with Sabbateans, who seem to have more in common with ancient gnosticism than the panentheism of the Orthodox position.

Yet, I suspect many people know this, don't care, and mostly dislike their emphasis on love, compassion, etc. In that sense, Christians, Muslims, and Karmists with the same ways of being are likely just as detestable.

Care and love is good - yes - but is it enough? Or is it the concept of God that is troublesome? Can we have love and care without God? Sure. Can we have God in a world with secularists who believe don't feel the need for God? Sure. But is that enough? Is there, maybe, a knowledge within our feeling relations that undercuts our rationality, and inclines us towards emphasizing individuality over communality? For sure.

In my research (into Human development i.e. neuroscience, psychology, systems biology) the Others we relate to and become enlivened by determine our feeling relations i.e. determine how it is we become enlivened. Because of this, we become "loyal" to the contexts and situations and feelings we want to feel - utterly believing that "this is us" - we are essentially "this".

Is there a God beyond the God that creates the universe, which inclines all biodynamical processes to paths of least resistance, and so, to a state of coherence and correlation, or zero entropy? Don't know. I know that this, though, seems to be the basic difference between some of the major religions. Is the Christian religion about placing love above all else - even the "coherence" of honoring the patterns present in the natural World?

Again, I don't know. One thing I will definitely acknowledge is that the Jewish religion, despite being mostly good and kind in my eyes, seems to produce individuals that are remarkably un-self-aware about how they look and appear to non-Jews when they walk around them or relate to them. In shot, having been so horribly traumatized throughout history, they unwittingly provoke negative-affects in Others simply by how they can be sometimes.

So, its a Human problem. In my eyes, one of the most Self-aware human beings alive is the Dalai Lama - a man of spirituality, science and compassion - a man who even said "my religion is compassion". It's so hard not to look at this man and not experience him with immense pleasure!



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 04:52 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet

Do you think you're going to get a good response from other people by repeating the controversial notion that you "worship satan'.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you recognizing that sacrificing people - children, for example - is wrong (never-mind astonishingly evil) and that artificially depopulating the world, again, is wrong

What is your view of the God of the Bible? Or, more basically, although not everything in the bible seems "kosher" from our modern day perspective, there does seem to be an ethical focus towards Others and the natural world that seems very consonant with much of today's progressive values.



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte



Do you think you're going to get a good response from other people by repeating the controversial notion that you "worship satan'.


??? I have never said I worship Satan ... I do not believe in Satan
Satan is a Human construct as is God



Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you recognizing that sacrificing people - children, for example - is wrong (never-mind astonishingly evil) and that artificially depopulating the world, again, is wrong


I was refering to those who do or plan such heinous acts in the name of Illuminati
I say such one's are frauds




What is your view of the God of the Bible? Or, more basically, although not everything in the bible seems "kosher" from our modern day perspective, there does seem to be an ethical focus towards Others and the natural world that seems very consonant with much of today's progressive values.


Having never seen God I have no view
But God as a governing force I consider
For there are governing forces or natural/universal laws or truths ... I seek these

There are truths in all religions but I am seeking something that unifies all Humanity rather than divides
The greatest truth is that all Humans are part of the same species/family
As such regardless of belief all should help one another in what ever way they can

We need to ensure the survival of the whole Human Family and also care for the Earth and all it's creatures
But in order to do that we need to reach a level of understanding and go beyond War and poverty











edit on 17-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-9-2016 by artistpoet because: typos

edit on 17-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 05:51 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet




??? I have never said I worship Satan ... I do not believe in Satan


You said something of the sort earlier that may have inclined me to that interpretation. Too lazy to see where you wrote that, I apologize in any case - your response seems to indicate that you do not particularly care for that thinking.




For there are governing forces or natural/universal laws or truths ... I seek these


If you seek this, I sense the Hebrew Bible has something of the kind there. There's also another Kabbalistic work called the Sefer Yetzirah, supposedly written by the patriarch Abraham, apparently .

But then again, my knowledge of God and mysticism is largely limited to the Hebrew Bible and the Kabbalah. For all I know, Sanskrit or Arabic may also make a compelling case for deeper meaning, and so, make any singular commitment of mine to the 'truth of the bible', merely one perspective among many.

Nevertheless, I see the Hebrew Bible as being paradigmatic of a "traumatized" psychology, and so, as my interpretations from my genesis thread shows, extraordinarily deep and attuned to what it is that causes Human beings to "fall" from a state of EDeN - pleasure i.e. a pridefulness that derives from a shame-phobia.

Modern developmental neuroscience, relational psychoanalysis, traumatology and prenatal psychology - mostly made up of Jews (with a traumatizing history encoded in their genes) - is basically coming to the same perspective. So you can imagine how astonishing it is for me to realize that this book which I memorized years ago (in my early 20's), out of a general interest in Judaism (not Jewish though) appears to have a profound source of insight.

It also appears to piss a lot of people off.




As such regardless of belief all should help one another in what ever way they can


Couldn't agree more.



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 06:07 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

I understand you better for your explanations

We each have different paths to the truth of things
And I respect the truths you have found in the Hebrew Bible
Knowing Hebrew as you do gives you a better insight for sure
I found your thread very interesting

Though I have no religion I am not oppossed to it as I have an interest in any subject/belief which deals with spirtual matters and the Big questions of life and death and the soul and the Universe etc






posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 11:27 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte


There are Orthodox Jews who are really Sabbateans, quite common in Hollywood and Israel actually.

It's the Turkish Donmeh Sabbateans seeking refuge under the law of return on equal footing with Karaites and Ethiopians who are refused asylum as that would be a pandoras box that would draw attention to the fact that Frankist-Sabbateans actually run the state of Israel through the Rothschild dynasty (Ruths child?) that basically created WW1&2 and the Zionist political party, nation of Israel and basically wreak havoc globally every day with G.O.D.S (Guns, oil, drugs and sex) being the major cause of evil in the world and controlled by them, as is everything.

On the whole, I don't frankly care what religion a person is. If someone worships Satan and is still a decent person I have no major problems with it.

When you say you're one thing but are a spy for anothet infiltrating every powerful organization possible to make the world so evil God has no choice but to send his Messiah and it causes endless war and loss of rights for others is where I draw the line. Capitalism is one thing but outrageous are the Sabbateans and they are everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

I do like Judaism and Islam though I don't care much for Catholicism and it's nephew Protestantism with it's step child evangelism and Fundamentalist Christianity just seem like fools who refuse to use any common sense. Remove Paul and I like the New Testament, but he is more prominent than Jesus so I prefer Gospels and Apocrypha that hardly ever mentions Paul.



posted on Sep, 17 2016 @ 11:34 PM
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originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Malocchio

Can you provide proof of your claims regarding Adam Weishaupt
Also to which oath do you refer ... You need to be specific if you want a discussion





Can you?

Seriously, why do I have to ''prove'' my opinions when I was being vague and general to begin with.

You want a link to Google so you can do some research on the subject? Search engines are wonderful tools for investigation and research. Try it sometime then you won't need me to prove the well known facts of life that informed people all know.

I find your ''proof'' request odd, like you're out to debunk something or make me look dishonest. Well if that's the case you can prove that I am wrong aboit whatever you want proof for or you can find a website that is in line with what you want to be true and link it up. I really don't know what you want from me that Google can't provide.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 03:59 AM
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a reply to: Malocchio

If you can not back up your opinion then I can not take it seriously

But if you can point in my direction to the claim/opinion you made
I would like to read your source then we can discuss it further



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 05:48 AM
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a reply to: artistpoet

Similar story with the Rosicrucian's, the modern AMORC and the Spanish (money making scam) Order of the Golden and Rosy Cross are recreation's or actual fake's from far more recent time's, the only public evidence of the Original Rosicrucian's were the mysterious pamphlet's in Bavaria back in the 1600's, mysteriously they seemed to stand for the same thing's that Simeon's Illuminate did and I was once informed on another thread that indeed his mentor may have been one of the (Genuine) Rosicrucian's which if true would mean that the name is not the order but the principle's are.

In a book the Rosicrucian's I once read there was a substantial wealth of information including an oath which was apparently based upon an an old Crusader oath, perhaps even Templar in origin which was made to the Lord Jehovah and was most binding but good in it's intention.

The truth though is most modern brotherhood's may have there secret's and ceremonys but they are by and large really just a good place to do business while having a drink with other like minded individuals' and so are for the most part harmless but there are other's that verge on being Cult in nature and have some far more worrying connotation's.

As for a history of the Darker Occult upon these group's including Masonry of the late 1700's in England as in many other country's in Europe many of the elite of society dabbled in sorcery, witchcraft and even devil worship.

Most notable was the infamous Hellfire club of supposed Neo Pagan's but whom are rumored to have at least on one occasion murdered a young maid in a human sacrifice ritual and to have summoned the Devil in the form of a cloven hoofed goat horned pan type creature, indeed the Hellfire club still exist's today in the form of the Bullingdon club though they are more likely to put there privates into pig's mouth's or burn £50 note's under tramp's noses (to show disdain for the poor) than sacrifice young maid's these day's.

Now how they influenced Masonry of the period is simply that the male members of the Hellfire club (including at least one English Prince) were also high ranking mason's and well, Club's within Club's with there own secret's etc.

As for European Masonry and the young but already well established US masonry though, well they were probably not so influenced (polluted) by the hellfire members though these idea's and an excuse for wild orgy's has a way of travelling across the sea and other national boundary's.

But the oldest secret orders can probably be found in the Vatican itself were there are or were groups within the catholic church itself that acted autonomously, of course the Vatican has a long history of corruption long predating the modern child abuse scandal's and including a Borgia even allegedly raising a toast to Satan at the high alter.

And of course it goes back to even before that, ancient Rome and Greece had many cultic group's and it is conceivable that some of them may have survived right up to the present.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 06:01 AM
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Living in a world of dualistic extremes it may seem logical to have an extreme good and an extreme bad... but seeing beyond duality it is not very rational but those extremes exist out of reason not really for one unless someone makes that their reason. But still one is at extremes of being instead of coming into balance... the balance is it is life and living it is the entire point.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 06:05 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Thanks for your information ... I will look into it as best I can

My premice is this ... The writings of Adam Weishaupt in the public domain are authentic so can be trusted as proof
However his writings need to be understood in a way to see where he was coming from IE His ideas
Ideas to me are key no matter what label they wear

Thanks again for the food for thought



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 06:15 AM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Actually it was not Crowly or his motto "do as you will" but Jesus whom said I would that you live life to the full, his meaning is living death is not living life but living correctly and with wisdom can only bring you profit and increase.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 06:56 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Of course we can follow an historical trail and make connections between various societies
However this does not mean or prove they are all one and the same or agree as the following quote shows
Remembering Adam Weishaupt was a Mason before forming the Illuminati and indeed there were members of the Illuminati who were Masons
Illuminati like Masons allow their members to be part of other groups such a religions though the religion is left on the doorstep in place of a greater understanding when gleaned

Any way here is the quote

" ...... It is by this scale that we must measure the mad and wicked explanations of the Rosycrucions, the exorcists and Cabalists. These are rejected by all good Masons, because incompatible with social happiness. Only such systems as promote this are retained. But alas, they are all sadly deficient, because they leave us under the domination of political and religious prejudices; and they are as inefficient as the sleepy dose of an ordinary sermon..... »
Adam Weishaupt (Sparticus)

The Illuminati operates beyond social, religous and political divide
It's main tenent is the welfare and survival of All of the Human species
Those that do not operate in this way and claim the title Illuminati are frauds

This is what Adam Weishaupt wrote ...

"« And what is this general object? The happiness of the human race....."

Does this strike you as one who would condone the evil done in the Illuminati's name

" I am proud to be known to the world as the founder of the Illuminati. » — Adam Weishaupt


edit on 18-9-2016 by artistpoet because: typo

edit on 18-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-9-2016 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 10:32 AM
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a reply to: artistpoet

No it does not strike me as an evil man but a man of his time, he was like many other's a free thinker and philosopher, an educated legal professional of his time and like many other's of that period he sought to be free of religion.

Now what I must point out is the time he wrote these word's and there context being framed in that very peculiar situation.

The war's between Protestant and Catholic were still fresh in the memory's and family history's of many, the Catholic church had lost much of it's power (and corruption since as you know the old elite had used it as a tool of power and were probably less religious at heart and far more hypocritical than such free thinker's), it had diminished in size as near a half of europe had abandoned it and it's incomprehensible Latin mass for the for the clear speech of the newer Protestant church's were they could hear the Gospel's and book's of the bible spoken in there own languages if with little or no more understanding (that spawned much more fresh persecution of the Jew's due to these congregation's lack of understanding the context of the biblical passage's).

Now that said that He was a man of his time and an influential philosopher whose writing's remain important to many even today you have to take them also in context and admit that what you have termed greater understanding is just an opinion.

Greater understanding can not be so easily imparted by simple word's and philosophy's.

Now that said I am going to direct you to look at some you tube video's about the discovery's or rather rediscovery's of one extremely religious american dental technician and amateur archaeologist's find's, he did not follow the trail left by wise men or Gnostic secret's, he simply read, believed and followed his faith and listened to that inner voice most of us have become deaf too.






Now while other's may and indeed will deny this man was true using all manner of slanderous accusation's her is his death bed testimonial.


The reason I am showing you this is to point out a glaring fact, there was no secret society, no hidden mystery's and no rejection of religion in this man only the truth as he understood it and guess what he knew and understood more than any of those grand masters or knight's of this or that order because he knew by faith.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: Malocchio




There are Orthodox Jews who are really Sabbateans, quite common in Hollywood and Israel actually.


Wouldn't doubt that for a second.

My main point is what the majority believe, not the minority who've decided to settle in the western most portion of our planet, in a state aptly named "Kali" "fornia" i.e. fornicating with "death" (Kali, the hindu goddess of death).

Steven Spielberg strikes me as a such a person - or maybe I'm being "paranoid"?




It's the Turkish Donmeh Sabbateans seeking refuge under the law of return on equal footing with Karaites and Ethiopians who are refused asylum as that would be a pandoras box that would draw attention to the fact that Frankist-Sabbateans actually run the state of Israel through the Rothschild dynasty (Ruths child?)


That seems like a good idea.

Ever heard of the temple institute? These guys have chutzpah - got to give them that.

If you look at the Hebrew calendar, were about 2 weeks away from what the Kabbalists regard as a "phase-transition" i.e. its the year 5777.

It's also been claimed by a popular 20th century Orthodox Rabbi and Kabbalist that the Messiah will come in he year 5778 i.e. sometime in 2018.

Its frightening thinking about what this may mean. If the Messiah appears, and, if this messiah happens to be the Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin (as many websites claim), this would fulfill the criteria (determined by maimonides) for the religious Jews to attempt to destroy the dome of the rock and erect in its place the Jewish temple - of which an exact replica has already been made in the Israeli desert.

Aye. We live in a strange, strange, strange world.

When you add to this the prophecy of malachy about the final pope (Francis) and the person of Donald Trump, and ISIS, and the general fragility of the economy, it does not seem like the best time to be alive - or - if you're the adventurous type, this period might seem "awesome" to you.




that basically created WW1&2 and the Zionist political party, nation of Israel and basically wreak havoc globally every day with G.O.D.S (Guns, oil, drugs and sex) being the major cause of evil in the world and controlled by them, as is everything.


I think its much larger than just the Sabbateans. If you look at their history, Sevi and Frank tried to "unite" into themselves Islam and Catholicism - which is to say, there might be something about those religions - which offered hospitality to these Jewish apostates - that may be problematic.

Who knows. All I can say is, antinomianism seems like a strange way to live. Don't get me wrong, I can understand the temptation towards sexual-liberation, but I don't understand the other more extreme forms that antinomian thinking may recommend.




On the whole, I don't frankly care what religion a person is. If someone worships Satan and is still a decent person I have no major problems with it.


It's strange, don't get me wrong. But I agree with you that the ethics of living - don't hurt other people, let them live, don't harmfully interfere with their existence - basically, a libertarianism. But I also think, given the way our present neoliberal world works, that we actually need a "socialist" element too. People are fundamentally organized by their relations with Other people, so it's important to help encourage and promote positive and nurturing ways of being, otherwise the brainstem will self-organize the personality towards a hyper conservative and socially-leery way of feeling.



I do like Judaism and Islam though I don't care much for Catholicism and it's nephew Protestantism with it's step child evangelism and Fundamentalist Christianity just seem like fools who refuse to use any common sense. .


Evangelical Christianity and its intense and utter simplicity strikes me as a group being led by 'false shepherds'.

The people who lead these groups don't allow more complex thinking - indeed, seem directly interested in constricting and constraining it by feeding people fearfulness and paranoia about everything.

As for the sabbateans, you can't forget the impression created by putting people out front and center - as the "jewish bankers", for instance.

I'd imagine mystics and occultists, being attuned to the nature and manner of feelings, would understand what sort of evil could be generated for the majority of Jews by having a few select of them (the sabbateans/frankists) at the head in banking and media.

Such a negative impression can be generated by such antics.

In any case, I find the whole thing insane and the paragon of lunacy. Secret-societies, organized religions - I find that when Human beings do things together they can derange one another into a perception of things insanely out of touch with whats reasonable and realistic.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Hence the "the balance is it is life and living it is the entire point." Not living beyond death is a cup half empty, think you're alive? As the zen saying goes empty your cup and you'll see that only the dead inhabit oneself until that cup is emptied. Drinking of his blood and eating of his body is simply pointing to the infinite nature of being.



posted on Sep, 18 2016 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Where does self-constraint come into the picture?

Take climate change. Some people literally believe that its "made up", as opposed to being what happens when Humans exploit their natural environments as a function of not feeling satisfied with their relations to one another.

For the life of me, it makes absolutely no sense to regard climate change as being "directed" by HAARP, as opposed to the mainstream explanations which regard the chemical composition of the atmosphere - in relation to the biosphere and geosphere - as being made out of a balance.

So, for me, taking care of nature and each other is fundamental to being and living. So long as this animates you and your experience, you not only acknowledge the infinitude of being, but also the finitude of the planetary system we live within and upon.

And it is here, I think, where the selfish existential needs of some people to "live without constraint" interferes with the reality of the finite planet we live upon and the constraints - and obligations - living upon it imposes upon us.



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