Just a rant on a personal situation.

I'm pissed off right now, and I have no one to talk about it with, so I'm throwing it up here.

My husband and I were invited to go on a hike with some friends. They do this often and it is a five hour hike.
He came up to me a few minutes ago, before leaving for work and asked me if I am sure I can do it.
Since I go running every day, alternating shorter faster runs with longer slower ones,
In this mountainous area where flat ground is inexistant,
And I do yoga and weight lifting everyday,
horseback riding as well,
Careful of what I eat.
Just two days ago I had some aquaintances comment on my muscular arms,
A visible and dramatic change especially in the last three months,

And he asks me if I think I can handle it??

I said, yes, I think I can. But what about you?

He has bad knees. He has been told countless times his only option is surgery, it is in the family, both brother and mother have the problem.
He refuses to EVER go running or walking with me, because of that. On days when he has been on his feet a lot for work, he comes home looking bowlegged and in pain. We haven't been able to go skiing in the last ten years because of this. His only exercise is once in a while he gets a wild hair up his butt and gets on the stationary bike for twenty minutes.

In response to my question, he says, Oh me- there's no question! Of course I can do it, easy! I am just concerned about you...if it is too hard for you, I can tell them we have other obligations that day...


I'm sitting here steaming. I criticize my body a lot, basically because I am looking for faults to work on- what I shall focus on next in my fitness regime. But I do not consider myself as being unfit- especially for my age! I don't think my perception is far off, because others often comment on this. I have no known health problems at this time. I have had tennis elbow, and asthma linked to allergies, but none of that is currently a problem.
I am in menopause, but taking hormonal therapy, so not experiencing any symptoms.

He, however, is currently going through a change in which his usually naturally muscular body is suddenly losing muscle, fast. Not fat- muscle. Probably just an effect of age, as he is over fifty. I have kindly not mentioned that- as I assumed he must be aware of it, and doesn't really need me making a big deal about it (seeing as he is sensitive about things like loss of hair..).

I mentioned that he usually tells me he can't go on a twenty minute walk with me because of his knees and he just shrugged and said that was "before...I've lost weight since, so it's not a strain on my knees.." . So i guess he thinks he's lost fat or something.

In this family, the kids have always look to me as the example of physical fitness. My son called ME last night to tell me he is on the Rugby team at his university, and ask me about equipment....my daughter calls ME to ask for advice in planning out her own workouts. They call him to find out about how to deal with papers, financial advice, getting through french bureaucracy and getting the lowest insurance rates.

Jeezus, I am rambling. Sorry.

This is another one of those moments in which I thought the other was aware I was being kind and considerate in not point out their faults or weaknesses, but it turns out he was not.
We got into a discussion a couple weeks ago about his tendency to do nothing but criticize others- including me and our children. He basically sees nothing good in us, or if he does, he makes sure we don't ever find out.
I think I have been able to live with this because I believed inside that he did see the positive in us, but was just choosing not to express it because of cultural habits (the french are not very expressive of positive reinforcement).

But right now I feel like that is not the case- he actually really does not perceive anything positive about others, including me. Even things that everyone else around recognizes as a strength or characteristic of mine, he does not see. He attributes to himself strengths he does not have.

I'm pissed off. I don't want to say I NEED the recognition from him, but I guess I do.
I have a tendency to let others walk on me, because of the relationship I had with my narcissist mother, and I really hoped I had kept from re-creating that in my marriage partnership. But I am afraid at this moment that I didn't.

a reply to: Bluesma

At least you have a spouse that is concerned about you.

Many people don't even have that.

a reply to: Bluesma

Consider that perhaps he was trying to use you as an out to not go on this hike. You obviously know he has knee issues and maybe he was too insecure to admit that it was actually him who was hesitant to go on this hike.

To me, this seems to be a very petty thing to be angry over.

Communication is the key to everything. Perhaps he is having difficulty accepting that he is coming to terms with age and it's ongoing limitations.

I pick up from what you said that you two have a problem communicating. This is a very simple situation for a couple that communicates well. He would say, "are you sure you can do this?" And then with respect you'd reply, "Of course, I work out to prepare myself for this type of work out, you know that. What about you? Are you up for this? If you don't want to do it we don't have to."

At that point he will either admit to his reservations or say that he'd like to push through. But you two should be comfortable with each other to communicate what the real issue is without judgement.

From the outside looking in, this seems to be more about your comfort with communication than anything else.

AAC

a reply to: Bluesma
Now sit down and relax, I'm sure he knows it's not going to be an easy task for you to get him through this and doesn't want to frighten you off this hike.

a reply to: Bluesma

I think he knows he can't handle it (is probably dreading it) and can't admit it to himself so it's a much easier out if he could tell these friends you are not up to it and lay it at your feet. It sounds like a typical male pride thing to me.

I can verify that many men are oblivious to the many things which many women are acutely aware. It's the old psychodrama of having to detach from identifying with mom and identifying more with dad and other men when they reach a certain age in childhood.

a reply to: Bluesma
I can understand where you're coming from. I get the same stuff from some family members. It's enough to make you scream. Lucky for me, my Beloved isn't one of the Negative Nellies or Normans.
I see it as some kind of passive/aggressive game, some need to deny what is before them.
But hey, life is all about forgiveness....so kill him with kindness and concern when you see him having difficulties on the hike.

This is a very simple situation for a couple that communicates well. He would say, "are you sure you can do this?" And then with respect you'd reply, "Of course, I work out to prepare myself for this type of work out, you know that. What about you? Are you up for this? If you don't want to do it we don't have to."

Yes,, that is EXACTLY what I said!

And like I described, he answered, no problem, easy for me, I am just concerned about you...

Now, we BOTH know that he is looking for an out- that is understood here, I think.

After that I said, well, if you are not sure, you can tell them I have a problem of some sort and we need to call it off.

What is bothering me is that this farce, this play... in which I pretend to be lesser than he, in order to protect his ego.
It is going too far. I thought that this was recognized by him as such, so we could have private moments between us when we acknowledge the reality. When there is no one else present, he can feel safe enough to drop the character role we play in front of others.

Is it just communication skills that is the problem? Or has he really and truly begun to lose touch with reality? Like inside, he actually now thinks he is superior to me in areas he is not?

This is my concern.

There was a line in "Outlander" once which continues to echo in my head... "If men spent half the time worrying about our feelings as we do about theirs... the world would be a different place."

I understand being careful of his ego and trying to build him up and respect his sensitivities,
But
Is there no moment when a man can consider doing the same for a woman? Give her compliment, notice good things about her? Without even going as far as being fake, just choosing to focus on the positive more than the negative?

I think I am usually totally wiling to play the "faire valoir"- the one who provides a contrast. To play the weak so he feels strong, stupid so he feels smart, the ugly to his handsome, the incompetent to his skillfulness...

But at the end of the day, the only thing I ask for is for us to drop that role playing when alone and when we have to make decisions together. To return to being equal individuals.

I am afraid that perhaps he can't anymore. That poses a problem for me. I do not want to live with someone who really seriously believes I am so much lesser than they.

Don't think this was about the hike-men have egos-you are his mate-he was looking for you to protect hisego. Maybe you could have said "do you want to do this?" Give the old fella an out. From what you have said he is not especially supportive of you and the children-at least the way you think he should be.

Passing through the "past" middle age when you know your body has changed and is changing is rough-esp for men because their role in the family drifts into being a real patriarch while the body becomes softer.

In this situation you worked hard and are very proud of your body-that's great-but not for him. You are sounding like you are emasculating him with your good luck and body building.

This is just a rough patch-he might be acting a little nastier than usual right now-and you are being a little more sensitive to his lack of support during your time of re-building-then, again, he could be a curmudgeonly old asshole you need to think about trading in-these old fart men do it all the time-then, again I could be wrong. Best wishes-no one said said marriage and life would be easy.

*sigh*

Yeah, I think most of you are accurate in seeing that I am dealing with a man who is going through a stage of life which is somewhat difficult. I am very aware of that too. I care, and I do make lots of effort to ease the discomfort and stroke his ego.

I think it got worse lately because some of his friends started making comments on Facebook about me that they found me very attractive. He seems to have mixed feelings about that -proud, but a bit insecure too.

I'm going to calm down. I'm going for my run and I am sure I'll feel emptied after.

But I had a relationship with my mother in which I tried to keep her from killing herself by encouraging her to project upon me whatever she didn't like about herself, so she'd feel better. So she'd accuse me of sleeping around, or doing drugs, when i was only thirteen (and hadn't done either yet) and I'd accept it , because she WAS sleeping around and doing drugs, and needed to unload that.

But this kind of role playing, I believe she KNEW that it wasn't real. She knew it wasn't true, but it was like a cathartic exercise, to help her face challenges outside with a bit more confidence.

Now, I've seen I tend to replay this with female friends if I am not careful, and I was aware of doing it a bit with my husband. The female who plays weak so the man feels needed and strong, or to protect his image in front of outsiders is rather common.

I guess one of the downsides to this is the occasional pent up frustration, of not having anyone recognize your strengths or qualities... the difficulty of having to hold up your internal sense of confidence and self worth without any help from anyone on the outside. But that was, I concede, my choice, and I can't blame anyone else.
Even if he has begun to believe I am as stupid, weak, ugly and incompetent as we pretend, I can't get mad about that when I agreed to take that risk.

My bad. I shall find a way to spend this anger energy and make something positive out of it. Thanks for you guys' feedback and compassionate ear (eye?).

a reply to: Bluesma

To play the weak so he feels strong, stupid so he feels smart, the ugly to his handsome, the incompetent to his skillfulness...

If he is such a remarkably shalllow and unevolved human being, and you find that unattractive (who wouldn't), why on earth are you living with him?

I really do fear for the sanity of women generally.

a reply to: Bluesma

I know how you feel. My husband went through the same grouchy, resentful patch. It was hell for me emotionally. Then a few years later I lost him, it was aggressive and fast. I wish I had him back grouchy and all. I feel like I've been torn in two. So hold on, try other things to see this through.

Maybe since his knees hurt consider taking up swimming with him. That should help him and be easier on the knees and you'd get the exercise you need. Or some other low impact exercise?

Good luck, it's a tough situation,

STM

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: Bluesma

To play the weak so he feels strong, stupid so he feels smart, the ugly to his handsome, the incompetent to his skillfulness...

If he is such a remarkably shalllow and unevolved human being, and you find that unattractive (who wouldn't), why on earth are you living with him?

I really do fear for the sanity of women generally.

I do not see him as shallow or unevolved... I am not sure where you got that.
I think all people are a mix of strengths and weaknesses, that we are ambiguous in nature.
I think that in relationships, we can help sort out that ambiguity in order to channel actions, with the help of the other.

For example, a person might feel, in a situation, a conflicting sense of confidence and self doubt; or courage and fear.
This can have a paralyzing effect, restraining action, or, if forced, result in self contradictory inefficient actions.

If, in that moment, you have a person next to you who suddenly starts manifesting or acting out self doubt, or fear, it is a natural and expected effect that you suddenly feel LESS of those, and more of the courage and confidence. You can find it easier to take an action fueled by those emotions.
Catharsis. Why there was "professional mourners" in some ancient civilisations?

Most people know how this works and help their loved ones this way. But within the intimacy between you, outside of the moments which call for effort, you usually both recognize it was a team effort and that it just helped you to turn your focus differently in the moment, that's all. It is not about who you are. You remain an ambiguous and multi-facetted human being, like everyone else!

I don't know what to say about the shallow and unevolved perception. I don't feel he is either. I have seen some people get very caught up in the role playing and lose sight of who they are, like when actors have trouble getting out of character off stage- especially when you LIKE the role you were playing. He used to be able to play and still keep his feet on the ground. But perhaps that just is getting more difficult with age, and he is not happy with himself.

But that has nothing to do with being shallow.

I would go on the hike and as soon as it is really hard for him offer to carry his bag without any sarcasm or critic and then continue the hike at the end hand him both your and his bag so he can put them in the car and never talk about it again.

Bluesma

What is bothering me is that this farce, this play... in which I pretend to be lesser than he, in order to protect his ego. It is going too far. I thought that this was recognized by him as such, so we could have private moments between us when we acknowledge the reality. When there is no one else present, he can feel safe enough to drop the character role we play in front of others.

Wait...you are supposed to pretend to be lessor than who you are when you are with someone...so he feels like he is more? You are not supposed to be yourself? I did not know this... thank you for that bit of information! This explains sooo much about my relationships now..

Sounds like just communication as many have said. And you know what the problem is, so you should be able to sit down and talk about it like adults.


Hope all goes well for you,
Kindest Regards,
blend57

originally posted by: seentoomuch
a reply to: Bluesma

I know how you feel. My husband went through the same grouchy, resentful patch. It was hell for me emotionally. Then a few years later I lost him, it was aggressive and fast. I wish I had him back grouchy and all. I feel like I've been torn in two. So hold on, try other things to see this through.

Maybe since his knees hurt consider taking up swimming with him. That should help him and be easier on the knees and you'd get the exercise you need. Or some other low impact exercise?

Good luck, it's a tough situation,

STM

What a good insight.

I went through a similar period earlier, when I realized I was entering menopause. I really felt that the road was only downhill from there and my body was giving out on me fast.
I got inspired seeing some very elderly female body builders, who started late in life, and though I don't intend to do that, it made me realize that it is not necessarily over. Delving back into serious exercise, and seeing my body revert to feeling good and strong again got me past that.

Maybe he needs to do something like that, and maybe it would help him feel better in his own skin?
I might put some effort into trying to help him do so. I actually was thinking about joining the local pool to swim in the winter months, and that would be ideal for him!

Hey, thanks for the great advice and sharing! It is uplifting.

originally posted by: blend57

Wait...you are supposed to pretend to be lessor than who you are when you are with someone...so he feels like he is more? You are not supposed to be yourself?

I guess I explained it better in a response above.. but to me it isn't about not being yourself exactly...because I think we are all a mix of conflicting characteristics and ambiguities... but it is in relations with others that projection, reflection, and role playing is done.

Though I usually mean in terms of less physical nature- like we can exchange and alternate playing a more "masculine" or "feminine" behavior in subtle ways, because as human beings we have both natures,
but if one day he were to actually insist that his body is of female gender... deny he has a penis... well, that i when I would be upset and worried that he has gotten a little lost!

Bluesma,

You've helped me so many times that I feel like I owe you. I would settle your problem with negotiations if I were in your shoes. Marriage counseling may be better. But, a marriage counselor will just work as an arbitrator in your negotiations anyway, in the end IMHO.

I created the following thread because of this thread. Ignore it if you don't think it applies.

The Art of Negotiating with Your Spouse

Heads up this is a very cute story... I know you are pissed but as an outsider to the window you have opened it is a very cute thing making you two adorable.

Here's why... it is pretty obvious that you channel your energy into your work out and keeping yourself fit and you're very confident about that.

So what does he do? Gave you so much energy you've already left he and your friends in the dust and power walked that 4 hours down to four minutes several times haven't you?

Now play this scenario in your mind... he has you all fired up raring to go which means he actually wants to go, and how could you say no after given such a challenge? Now of course, this is supposed to be a friendly leisurely walk yes? Now are you going to take the laissez faire approach and not let the walk get in the way of spending time together and with friends so he may giggle that it is now go time up at dawn protein packed water bottles ready auto packed raring to go and all he has to do is tag along leisurely with an occasional "hustle lets go! go! go!"?

It seems you two match each other very well if that's the motivation style to get fired up and ready to take charge... and perhaps that is something he really enjoys seeing... and the boyish charm shining through oh yes despite my not exercising I've lost weight not hair mind you and am going to give you a run for your money. Leaving you even more fired up for the day.

So this venting? pent up energy cause you are ready to go show his 20 minutes not commenting on your muscle mass accounting ass at the starting line right now yes? But it's days away and you're feeling all Hans and Frans with that pinky finger...

That's what is cute about this window you have opened up... it appears to be working but wow is his timing off unless he enjoys all the build up a little too much in getting you fired up for things.

Perhaps you should dim the lights pretend you are going to give him a romantic evening and then order his ass onto that stationary bike... for a whopping 25 minutes.



If at some point during reading this if you have felt the urge to go hit him feeling manipulated please don't.

a reply to: Bluesma

I do not see him as shallow or unevolved... I am not sure where you got that.

It's just the impression I'm getting from your comments.

You play the dutiful, slightly subservient wife as a foil for his masculine 'man of the house' image.

You actually agreed with one poster who suggested that his asking you if you felt up to doing the hike was just an excuse to not go because HE didn't feel up to it.

Sounds like a twerp.

a reply to: Bluesma


Okay, mama...First of all.-I didn't realize he was criticizing your children as well. That's toxic behavior, (Although I don't reall know the customs of the French).

It sounds like you might have a body image problem, which is totally unwarranted-- I'm confident that you're in great shape, and you have no reason to question that. I am sure of this. You have the feeling that he wont be able to make this hike...What if his knees give out halfway up the mountain?

By the way- massages can help relieve lots of tension if you have an athletic body.