Personal Integrity

originally posted by: TerryDon79
That kind of makes a thread with us two debating pointless.

But entertaining

originally posted by: Aristotelian1

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: Aristotelian1

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Aristotelian1

I disagree with anything Scientology says until I find out the truth for myself. I don't need a cult to tell me what to think, act or feel.

Do you disagree with the quote?

100% disagree as its got nothing to do with "personal integrity".

It's not about "knowing what you know", but more about being honest with yourself and living a life with your moral principles.

Do you like the quote?

I'll bite. I do not like the quote. It is a bad quote. It is nonsense. No one "knows" anything. Reality is unknowable through the keyhole of human perspective. Speaking what you have observed of the world and what you believe to be true based upon those observations is not integrity, in fact, in most cases the arrogant human tendency to assume that they "know" anything is the opposite of integrity.

Another good peek into this cult is looking up the stories of those that have tried to leave Scientology. Especially after they've been in it for awhile, and especially if they have children or other family inside.

Integrity goes right out the window (if it was ever there).

exscientologykids.com...

Ex-Scientology Kids is designed, owned, and operated by three young women who grew up in Scientology, and later left the Church. We feel that growing up in the Scientology environment is a unique experience that’s almost impossible to comprehend unless you’ve lived it yourself. For what it’s worth, we offer non-judgmental support for those who are still in Scientology, discussion and debate for those who’ve already left, and a plethora of easy-to-understand references for the curious.

For the record, while the site admins make every effort to be non-judgemental, that doesn’t mean we’re unbiased. Most of the people that write for this site have had extremely negative experiences in Scientology. Some of us have lost our families due to Scientology’s Disconnection Policy, some of us have experienced physical abuse, and some of us were denied a proper education. However, we do welcome pro-Scientology email, comments and forum posts. There’s even a “no registration required” forum area where anyone may anonymously post questions, comments and advice.

Scientologists: We understand that you don’t want to ruin your case by accidentally looking at the OTIII materials, and we respect that. We’ve done our best to keep all info on confidential materials clearly marked and partitioned off from the rest of the site. If you want to look, look. If ya don’t, ya don’t have to.

a reply to: Open_Minded Skeptic

I totally agree with this... and dignity is not allowing oneself to be swayed otherwise.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Nothing wrong with feeling good, or feeling good about yourself.

But here we are talking about words from Hubbard, used in a manner to stir emotion in the weak minded (or something), with the ultimate intent of luring them into his cult. And it is a cult. A very large and powerful cult.

What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything.

What is this even supposed to mean?

What is personal integrity? Personal integrity is knowing what you know. What you know is what you know and to have the courage to know and say what you have observed. And that is integrity and there is no other integrity.

Or this?

Of course, we can talk about honor, truth, nobility—all these things as esoteric terms. But I think they would all be covered very well if what we really observed was what we observed, that we took care to observe what we were observing, that we always observed to observe.

And this?

And not necessarily maintaining a skeptical attitude, a critical attitude or an open mind—not necessarily maintaining these things at all—

Ah, the pay no attention to the man behind the curtain warning.

but certainly maintaining sufficient personal integrity and sufficient personal belief and confidence in self and courage that we can observe what we observe and say what we have observed.

Huh?

Nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it and it is true according to your observation.

And when the brainwashing is complete and it has become your truth you can go on to brainwash others.

I don't care how good it makes some people feel.

There is nothing good about Scientology.

It's dangerous, frankly. I urge the OP to get out before it's too late.

Bare in mind the following are my interpretations of them... I am not Mr. Hubbard so I cannot interpret them for him as they stood on their own in his mind.

1. Well when you deny your observations of life forsaking them for another... I was an abused child... my parents like to pretend it never happened as a coping mechanism even though one actually did at one time but statute of limitations... if I also pretended it never happened would that mean happily ever after or living in delusion with them? That would be accepting and condoning the abuse... which means I would likely then continue the practice and see nothing wrong with it... sheer ignorance as I know exactly how much pain and suffering it caused and continues to do so in the world of make believe coping.

2. Is standing up and saying despite your denial of the reality that occurred? Your cognitive dissonance is not a safe place to hide from the truth in. I will expose you every single time you try to hide it... I will not be an agent of falsehood with you, only an agent of truth and actually walk that as an example in my life not hiding a single thing not from myself nor anyone else.

3. It means not becoming subject to ones observation but the things in observation? To be kept as a subject so one doesn't become a slave to them, in such a manner one can become an unwitting agent to belief and delusions and not reality as mentioned above.

4. This sounds like a method detaching, old belief, new belief and living more in the moment to what is continually arising as the present from the immediate future so we are not self limiting or allowing anyone else too by them allowing oneself to stay objective to experience and not subject to it or subjecting others to it as truth because experience changes and wisdom grows... but we have to allow it to do so.

5. Not really different than number 1 or 2 but it is a means to remove self doubt, that what you are doing and the path you are on is unique no one else can share that exact same experience because it is a label someone else ask what were you two doing? The company could say yeah we were watching TV and well I could say I was actually reading while you were watching TV but both shared the experience of being in the same room... two separate realities occurring side by side even if both were watching the TV the thoughts about it different, the observations of what was occurring different I may be looking at someones face and they may be looking at the explosion.

6. He is basically saying... here is what I have observed that helped me, it is what I am calling Scientology if you practice it and it ceases to be Scientology then it is not true for you, if you practice it and it remains Scientology then we have walked the same path.

Honestly to me it sounds like Mr. Hubbard was laying out a path in how to be objective to reality as it is occurring and not allowing oneself to get carried away as a subject to it... because doing so becomes stagnation it starts covering things up in self justification without any integrity to move forward in growth and wisdom.

In such a manner of secularism when actually put into practice... how are they any different? This is how Mr. Hubbard created a religion... he knew they all lead to the same thing if walked if the task is taken up, despite whatever dogma or terms make them seem or appear different or otherwise... he just didn't hide that he was changing the dogma on top of the very same framework that they all share when not getting lost in the many many details of differentiation

a reply to: Aristotelian1

A man, who by all accounts, including his children, lacked any integrity, is what sort of source about it? That's right, a dubious source.

There are many people who could write on the subject, and I'd listen. Him? Nah, I'd rather put my hand in a blender.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

So what OT rank do you hold in Scientology neighbor?

a reply to: TerryDon79

Indeed the term cult need not be pejorative. The primary meaning is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object." In this case it is the word of Mr Hubbard. His family has a history of this too, he has a nephew (I believe) who founded Witch School, and took over the Corellian Tradition in Chicago, then moved to Salem to make it more marketable to the gullible. Some families breed certain kinds of people. The Hubbards well....

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Interesting interpretation, thank you.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Hey OP: exploring integrity is always a worthy thought process, I think. I saw a sign, in a psych ward, of all places, defining integrity as doing the right thing when no one is watching.....

Thought that was interesting so I added it here. I think integrity is many things, not just defined in that quote, but in other, less forthright and more nebulous and ambiguous terms than even that. However, exploring the concept is always a worth endeavor.

good luck to you, and may you preserve your integrity, for it seems to me that is a most difficult a dicey thing.
tetra

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

If they seem to mirror each other then it has value as a translation for those confused if not? Then sorry to add to the confusion, I can only offer what I have learned from personal experience that continues to grow and move forward when not holding onto things already hooked by from just being alive.