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originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Malocchio
Bummer! I really did miss that. On the foundation stones of the city. The 'sacred' 12.
Okay, I will withdraw in defeat. You can follow the Lamb however he commands you, and love Jesus and obey Jesus.
I'm going to research some Heathen gods now.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: pthena
It is actually not the 12 because Judas Iscariot was one of those original 12.
It is the 12 tribes of Israel.
Originally posted by Joecroft
Not sure why you are focusing on the word “Apostle”; apostle is just a person who supposedly follows Christ, but cannot be compared to the original twelve who Jesus first called…
Originally posted by Malocchio
There are 12 Apostles with the replacement of Judas as Matthias. After that no one is an Apostle.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: ChesterJohn
Text Hey ti was you claiming paul said he was the 13th or 14th apostle I merely showed that Jesus called none of them Apostles. That was done by the writers of the NT gospel books.
Point well said.
As Judas the disciple of Jesus died and was replaced i have another question to ask.
Historians agree with the death of King Herod [Agrippa] as being 44CE. The disciple James [the son of Zebedee] is known as one of the twelve just as Judas Iscariot was also known as one of the twelve. Most all scholars believe that this disciple James was beheaded by King Agrippa in the last year of Agrippa's life [44CE]. That left ten of the original of the twelve and the replacement Matthias which adds to eleven. Now if it is so important to have twelve Apostles why then was not James replaced? Or was he replaced?
All of the eleven NT Apostles were alive at this time of James' death and we are also looking at the disciple Paul as being converted seven years before James was killed. Now according to my above post in which the disciples were sent out two by two, you can note that James and Matthew were sent out as a team and Paul and Peter were also sent out as a team. By this we can realize that this event was before King Agrippa died in 44CE. Saul was converted about 37 CE and was well accepted and was teaching and preaching a good seven years before James died. He had the hand of fellowship by the entire congregation of the Jerusalem church.
My contention is that Paul replaced James and called his authority as the thirteenth Apostle in due respect and honor to James. Why should I assume all of this? Because of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were given to the Nazarene movement in that upper room of the first synagogue of Christ Jesus.
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the Nazarene's to advance and protect the movement [1st Corinthians 12:7-12.
One of the gifts was that of discernment.
1Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
All of these gifts were given to the congregation of James and were not suppressed as they are today. Paul had met the congregation of James and was greeted as a brother [Acts 21:17-20].
My point is that the Holy Spirit [The Most High] gave the gift of discernment to His congregation as protection against evil entering and destroying the movement. Paul could not have been a false Apostle and not have been discovered by the congregation. Therefore Malocchio claims he is wiser than The Most High EL in that the Most High who gave the gifts could not discern a false prophet. Shake the dust from your feet Chester John. It is fruitless.
Disciple
noun
noun: disciple; plural noun: disciples
A personal follower of Christ during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles.
A follower or pupil of a teacher, leader, or philosopher.
"a disciple of Rousseau"
Apostle
noun
noun: Apostle; plural noun: Apostles
Each of the twelve chief disciples of Jesus Christ.
An important early Christian teacher or pioneering missionary.
Originally posted by Malocchio
Read the Vision of New Jerusalem in Revelation and it will tell you exactly how many Apostles of the Lamb there are.
It's 12 so I have to disagree, Apostles are 12 in number and chosen by Jesus and Matthias by the Spirit, they are people who were taught personally by Christ and the definition is given for the needs of determining who is qualified to replace Judas in Acts.
Disciple is any other follower of Christ that is not an Apostle. There really is no reason to think that the special title Apostle is interchangeable with the basic term disciple.
There were 12 Apostles, Matthias replacing Judas ended the appointment of Apostle and no, the terms are not at all interchangeable an Apostle is one of the 12.
Even James the Just is not an Apostle even though he is the Nasi of the Jerusalem faction so it's not a word to describe every disciple but the 12 chosen by Christ.
Acts 14:14
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
...
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
If you want to research an interesting heathen deity I recommend Molech and Saturn. It's all about the cube. Even New Jerusalem is a cube. Heathen is a rather distasteful term imo.
James was not an Apostle guy, he was the brother of Jesus and his replacement as leader. He was never an Apostle, just a pillar of the church and leader of Jerusalem.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Malocchio
James was not an Apostle guy, he was the brother of Jesus and his replacement as leader. He was never an Apostle, just a pillar of the church and leader of Jerusalem.
You have much to learn. If you reevaluate your own ignorance you will find that i specifically noted James the son of Zebedee and not James the brother of Jesus who was the Nasi of the Nazarene movement and also was known as James the Just. James the son of Zebedee was the brother of John and not the brother of Jesus.
You make these statements which are so numerous that it would take most of our time trying to educate you. In all honesty you do need a qualified teacher, which I am, but I do not have the time and seemingly it would be impossible. When you make a statement such as you have in the above quote you do show your ignorance of basic Christianity. LOL -
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Malocchio
However there is no record of Jesus Calling the 12 Apostles.
All we have are the witness writings of the four gospels that say they were apostles. Three Books of which Paul read as they were written before his death.
Luke is the only one who says he named 12 apostles but there again it is a witness not any proof Jesus called any of them Apostles.
It is upon that you err and your claim begins to fall apart.