Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: Observationalist

Because Paul was not a propagandist but a true servant of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus knowing Israel's full rejection of the fullness of god, prepared a man for this work and sent him forth with information that was not covered in the four gospels. This also included a Gospel of the grace of God for all men including Jews. For the kingdom was set aside therefore the gospel of the kingdom was also set aside.

We have the age of Grace of God which is soon to end.

Irenaeus, had nothing to do with what preserved by God as his word. God himself promised to preserve his word to every generation forever as found in Psalm 12:6, 7. This generation of English speaking people had a bible preserved for it and it has all the words of God in it. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Look for the Bible with all the bible verses in it, it defines any word in it by its context no need for outside sources, it has a built in cross reference through out that connects the words, phrases and verses together to shoe greater truths, also look for the version that everyone loves to hate and complain about. Like the living Word, Jesus Christ, was persecuted so is the preserved word equally persecuted.

Have faith in God and his promise to preserve his word and reject anything from out side it as truth.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

the biggest deception it that one does not have preserved word of God he can hold in his hand today.

But I beg to differ. For if God sys he will presrve his words via his prophet David.

Ps 12:6, 7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Irenaeus, had nothing to do with what preserved by God as his word. God himself promised to preserve his word to every generation forever as found in Psalm 12:6, 7. This generation of English speaking people had a bible preserved for it and it has all the words of God in it. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Look for the Bible with all the bible verses in it,

How many verses in the bible, what language - in other words what you ask for is nonsense

a reply to: Malocchio

Islam is irrelevant to Christianity seeing it was not on the scene until after 600AD.

Now we have a religion created by a man that is going to give light on the word of God?

I think not.

Stick to the preserved word of God and forsake searching among the world for his words and trust God alone/


Allah and the living God are not the same. Tish too is a deception.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
Allah and the living God are not the same.
...

Not sure where you are getting this idea from…???

Muslims believe in the SAME God as the Christians and Jews do…There are tons of parallels and cross overs between all three religions.

Muslims believe in the Prophets of the Old Testament and they believe Jesus is the Messiah. Muslims essentially believe in the same God, they just disagree about certain specific aspects when compared to Judaism and Christianity…

You need to start looking at the connections, instead of just focusing on the differences…


- JC

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Originally posted by Matrixsurvivor
Exactly, my friend. The other thing the religious rulers of that time did, was tell everyone you couldn't be "forgiven" apart from bringing some poor, defenseless, animal to them to atone for your sins.
Funny....Jesus accepted EVERYONE. No sacrifice needed...and this was before He was murdered.

Awesome, we are on the same page…

Jesus was clearly against sacrifices…IMO…and he consistently calls sinners to repentance. Jesus wanted others to walk the path…no sacrifice needed to do that…

Originally posted by Matrixsurvivor
However, I don't see Jesus as a "blood sacrifice". I see Him as the complete embodiment of TRUTH....THAT'S why they killed Him.

“embodiment of TRUTH…”…YES!!! (little celebration lol)

I was just saying exactly the same thing in a recent thread post I made a few days back…here below…

Jesus represents Wisdom. Wisdom gives knowledge and understanding. Jesus is an embodiment of the truth because he understood those things directly from the Spirit of God…

Originally posted by Matrixsurvivor
He went up against the religious order of the day...the same religious order we SEE today. The only difference is they fleece your wallets through manipulation and guilt, instead of an animal sacrifice.
The other sects of Jews at that time (like the Essene's and Ebionites) were vegetarians who didn't hold to the same Torah the Sadducee's and Pharisee's did. Oh, and they didn't believe Paul either.

Exactly, I complete agree…

Paul clearly new some of the teachings of the Nazarenes, but IMO he didn’t completely understand all of the hidden teachings and all of there metaphoric meanings, otherwise he would have never turned Jesus into a sacrifice.

Glimpses of Gnostic thought and Nazarene theology can be seen in a few places within Pauls supposed writings, but it’s not the main focus and tends to get shrouded in a mystery…


- JC

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Malocchio

Islam is irrelevant to Christianity seeing it was not on the scene until after 600AD.

Now we have a religion created by a man that is going to give light on the word of God?

I think not.

Stick to the preserved word of God and forsake searching among the world for his words and trust God alone/


Allah and the living God are not the same. Tish too is a deception.

Not a fan of Islam, Chester?

Why am I not at all surprised that though Islam honors its predecessors the Prophets and acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah that a narrow minded person such as yourself would make the false claim that the God of Islam, Judaism and Christianity are not the same God.

Only someone who knows absolutely nothing about Islam would say that Allah is not the God of Abraham when he clearly is by all scholarly, academic and religious facts could prove you wrong in a flat second.

Arabic Christians also call Allah, Allah.

It's a different language than English Chester, but it is etymologically linked to Elohim or God.

Islam is basically the same thing as Christianity without the pagan nonsense.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Malocchio

Originally posted by Malocchio
Then it was decided to infiltrate and neutralize the movement and create a competing brand of The Way acceptable to pagan Rome.

Paul's ideas about subservience to authority (of Rome) and subservience of women to their husbands, slaves to their masters (especially) were crucial to its success among the Romans.

Eventually the Pagan form of Christianity, Catholicism became the religion of the Empire by law and the original Jewish Nazarenes and Ebionites were sought out as heretics and likely killed as were the Gnostic Christians of Egypt and Syria all disappearing from history with their books destroyed.

I agree, this is exactly what happened i.e. A religion was subverted and moulded/edited by Rome…IMO…but in order to do that effectively you have to keep some truth of Jesus intact…

Although I’m not sure why you include the Ebonite's into the equation. The Ebonite's were said to have an identical version of the Gospel of Matthew, with the only difference being that they removed the virgin birth. It was for this reason that the Ebonite's were declared heretics by the early Roman Church…


- JC

Why wouldn't I include the Ebionites?

The Ebionites and Nazarenes were the legitimate first Christians and they used a Gospel assumed to be the Hebrew Matthew.

I included them to say that the real Christian Church was deemed heretical by Rome for being ''too Jewish" and because they outright rejected Paul.

Which is relevant to this thread.

The entire genre of New Testament Jewish Apocrypha is called the Clementine and pseudo Clementina and I own them all.

Except the Apocalypse of Thomas. Ante Nicene fathers vol 8 and a few other volumes, 1 and 10 I think have the remaining few I actually don't have that aren't that important to me because I am more interested in Jewish style writing like Homilies and Recognitions, Acts of the 12 Apostles individually but I am going to buy it anyway.

a reply to: cooperton

Originally posted by cooperton
Ehh, it is Jesus talking to a newly married couple, and telling them to be patient in their intercourse... Although I know it holds symbolic value, he is also literally talking to newlyweds.

I think the married couple aspect, is just a metaphor being used to tie that back into the Spiritual teaching of the Father and Son becoming one, which in turn gives birth to a New Son and a New creation…

In other words, the physical union between a man and a woman and ultimately giving birth to a Son in the flesh, is being paralleled to that of the New birth in the Spirit.

The parallel being that when the Father has union with the Son, this produces a New/Son creation. It results in a person, who has now become “born again” or born of the Spirit…this event happens spiritually in a persons lifetime, in the here and now…i.e. not when they are born physically…

Originally posted by cooperton
Yeah, it is a union of all faculties:

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female... then you will enter [the kingdom]." Thomas 22

Making the male not male etc…is to do with seeking the “Father”, the Spirit of God, which is neither male nor female. Making the 2 into one is to do with uniting the Spirit of God with the Soul. The Soul being the Son, which is the real you…

Originally posted by cooperton
Exactly - good stuff. Where have you been on this forum??

Lurking in the Shadows…hiding in the bat cave lol

Originally posted by cooperton
What is a Son to a Father?? The Son develops into the Father's inheritance, assuming the Son follows the discipline and teachings of the Father.

“What is a Son to a Father?”… Loved…is the simply answer…

But I think you’re looking for a deeper answer…The Soul is the real person…The Soul is the Son…The Soul is also Spirit, but just the lower aspect of that Spirit…

The Soul/Son has it’s life in the Father…the Spirit of life etc…Most people aren’t aware of their connection to the Father/Spirit…Jesus wanted everyone to become aware of this…

Originally posted by cooperton
Does a Son know more than the Father? Of course not, yet we as children so often think we do - not knowing the Good and Perfect discipline from the Father that is teaching us into His Kingdom.

The Father would never put ALL knowledge of everything into a Son because it would just be too overwhelming, and is not really necessary. But the Father can teach the Son any truth that He/she searches for…

It is the Son hearing from the Father who learns and understands truth…this is how it works universally, in that the Son must always be the one who comes to understanding…This is why Jesus spoke these words below in John 16

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Spirit of Truth is the Father and Son working in unison…The Father speaks to the Son…then the Father and Son understands collectively and “speaks” the truth to the son…

No one has the Totality of knowledge of the Father, but the Father can teach truth to the Son, but it will always be the Son who has to understands and articulate that truth…

Going by the verses in a strict literal sense, it’s God the Father and Jesus the Son that teaches Us the Son…but I believe Jesus was just trying to make things easy to understand for those who were listening…

The real Spiritual truth will always be held by the Father and Son working in unison, it’s a collective universal truth between the 2 which is then spoken and passed onto others; this is exactly what Jesus was trying to show…IMO


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
Allah and the living God are not the same.
...

Not sure where you are getting this idea from…???

Muslims believe in the SAME God as the Christians and Jews do…There are tons of parallels and cross overs between all three religions.

Muslims believe in the Prophets of the Old Testament and they believe Jesus is the Messiah. Muslims essentially believe in the same God, they just disagree about certain specific aspects when compared to Judaism and Christianity…

You need to start looking at the connections, instead of just focusing on the differences…


- JC

Praise Allah.

I literally just got out of Masjid, the Mosque and I always feel at peace after.

Islam is a peaceful religion. I even got a new book. The Future World Order by al Mubarak and I have yet to read it but it definitely talks about the folly of Pauline theology as I did skim some pages.

Coincidence? Never! You bet when I get home I will be providing quotes!!

a reply to: Joecroft

Paul clearly new some of the teachings of the Nazarenes, but IMO he didn’t completely understand all of the hidden teachings and all of there metaphoric meanings, otherwise he would have never turned Jesus into a sacrifice.

How do you know? And why didn't he? If this is all made up why don't we see a more clearer picture of how Jesus is talking about Paul and why wouldn't Paul make more references to Jesus's ministry? Why keep it mysterious? The Romans were not about ambiguity, shouldn't we expect more from them?

When I read Paul's writings I don't see a propagandist, if he was he was very ineffective. 10 percent was all he could get.
Paul reads more like what the bible says happen, like a man who was a self reliant chap, set on one path and was dramatically converted, ultimately being empower by something other than himself. We get to see him work through it see his failures his frustration, we don't see a polished spokesman for Christianity.

So it's not that I trust Paul. It's that I trust Jesus and the Holy Spirit to move through someone like Paul, and Peter who was no Rock by the way. Yet Through the Holy Spirit he was strengthened. Paul fits the mold of someone being used by God, not by some Roman government with intent to deceive.

As promised some Muslim exegesis regarding Paul from the book The Future World Order by Abdulaziz F. Al Mubarak:

16.

It is a well established fact that Paul claimed that his self-appointed role as an apostle came directly from Jesus; [see Mt. 24:23] but that was only through Paul's day dream vision of Jesus i.e. the ''ressurected" Jesus. Are there implications or inferences in such a course of action by Paul? Paul knew full well that he was not among the twelve apostles of Jesus. This is an undisputed fact by all concerned. Paul also knew that if he were to claim his position as an apostle as coming directly from God (before Jesus was assumed to be "God"), then he would be considered God chosen and a sent messenger with all the attending and associated signs (material proof) for such a claim. However, Paul knew that such signs and proofs required were not available to him as he was not a messenger of God. Since Jesus was not around Paul simply claimed this and asserted authority based on a presumed ressurected Jesus.

2 Chapters are devoted to examining the claims of Paul and rejecting the doctrine he made up. Basically Muslim exegesis of the New Testament is critical of Paul, the Pauline church and his fake "gospel" that comes from the mind of Saul and contradicts Jesus.

Basically everything said here regarding the false apostle is concurred by not just Muslim exegesis but also Jewish, as the video in the OP shows, if I remember correctly it was a Jewish production.

It's really unfortunate that the only people who can't see that Paul is a false prophet are the people who claim that Jesus, a man, is actually God and that God is 3 people in one.

I guess believing nonsense leads to the rejection of logic, naturally, followed by more nonsense until you end up arguing yourself into admitting that there are 2 Gospels, one for Jews and one for goy, what choice do you have when presented with the facts?

Unfortunately this two Gospel theory, based on some racially motivated thinking and a desire to rescue Paul from the trash bin of false prophethood, only proves exactly what Akragon set out to prove.

Paul's Christianity has nothing to do with the 12 Apostles or Jesus and he, not Jesus, is the founder of Christianity.

Messianic Nazarenes didn't have a need or desire for a new religion, but Rome eventually did and anti Semitic people that they were Paul's claims that faith in his peculiar theology was the only knowledge in the world and salvation through faith alone, without actually doing anything, was rejected by the Jewish Nazarenes and the Gnostics who are said to have admired Paul but constantly wrote polemics on the absurdity of his "mere utterance of a phrase as salvation" calling it absurd, among other things.

I think that the only person who is called a Gnostic, though he was not at all, and admired Paul was Marcion.

Nag Hammadi references to Paul are in 2 short unimportant texts and don't espouse faith only salvation, so there was some kind of acknowledgement of him but he was not important at all.

Paul gets no love outside of Christianity even though Islam acknowledges every Jewish Prophet and Nazarene Apostle as well as Zoroaster and some 144,000, Paul gets no love.

a reply to: Observationalist

Originally posted by Observationalist
Why don't we? If this was a ploy by the Romans to control people then why didn't they put it together in an ideal way so that we would all be convinced, making an open and shut case. Why invent a week opponent to Jesus like Paul. Sloppy work by the Romans?, Rookie propagandist?

“Why don’t we…?”

Probably because producing 12 individual Gospels and a “Gospel of Jesus” would require too much work and effort on the part of Rome.

Plus Rome didn’t need to make it perfect; they had the power and authority to promote their own version, while simultaneously killing all opposition and destroying their texts. You don’t need the perfect propaganda, when you have military might behind you…

Rome didn’t invent a weak opponent to Jesus like Paul. You’ve got it backwards, it’s the other way around.

Paul speaks over Jesus and creates his own teachings that Jesus never even spoke about. Paul doesn’t even understand the true mysteries of some of Jesus teachings. Most of the time Paul speaks like a politician, praising Jesus on the one hand, but never actually quotes him directly (except maybe once) on the other.

IMO Paul infiltrated the Nazarene movement; he then took some of their teachings back to Rome, who in turn, added/edited certain aspects of Jesus real teachings while keeping others intact.

Judaic elements were also accentuated to help bring in other Jewish factions and believers; Pagan elements were also thrown in, to get most of the Roman citizens to follow and believe in it. It was the perfect strategy to get everyone under the banner of “One Religion” spearheaded by Rome.

The problem here, is that you’re asking yourself the wrong questions…

Christians believe Jesus is God. God/Jesus takes time pick out and to teach twelve disciples, so that they can learn from his life example, his miracles, his teachings and be living witnesses etc…

For Jesus/God to suddenly now have to come back and pick out someone who hasn’t witnessed any of those things, who's writings will just so happen to make up 50%!!! of the New Testament, is a slap in the face to those other disciples that Jesus picked out.

Why would God go to all that trouble of teaching those disciples first hand, just to come back and bring in someone else as the main spokes person for Christianity…???…And a spokesmen who doesn’t even quote Jesus, except maybe once…

Now lets just assume for a moment that the 4 Gospels are actually written by the real disciples/Apostles (Btw - we know Mark and Luke never even met Jesus, and we know the 4 canonical Gospels were all anonymous works) of Jesus.

Those Apostles of Jesus don’t focus on themselves or their own thoughts and ideas etc… they only focus on Jesus teachings and his life, this is what all the Apostles of Jesus should be doing. Instead Paul creates his own ideas, which Jesus never even spoke of…

I mean just look at other Religions…

Muslims believe in the teachings of Muhammad…Hare Krishna's follow the teachings of Krishna…Buddhists follow the Buddha…but Christians follow Jesus AND Paul!!!…


- JC

a reply to: Observationalist

So you believe even though Jesus said specifically not to believe anyone claiming secret revelations (Mt 24:23) from him, unmistakably, and even though Paul called the 12 Apostles ministers of Satan and false Apostles, that he was a member of the team?

Are you interested in purchasing any bridges, time shares or the Statue of Liberty?

Because Jesus appeared to me last night and gave me all that stuff and he wants me to sell it to someone and that person is guaranteed a place in Heaven.

JK. You can believe anything in life, literally, ancient aliens, flat earth/round earth square earth, makes no difference to me.

I just know a liar when I read one, and Paul lies A LOT.

a reply to: Malocchio

Originally posted by Malocchio
Why wouldn't I include the Ebionites?

The Ebonite's and Nazarenes were the legitimate first Christians and they used a Gospel assumed to be the Hebrew Matthew.

I included them to say that the real Christian Church was deemed heretical by Rome for being ''too Jewish" and because they outright rejected Paul.

I agree with everything else you said, but the Ebonite's had an identical Gospel of Matthew, with the only difference that they removed the virgin birth from it’s pages.

You see, I believe the 4 Gospels were Constructed/Edited texts by the early Roman Church, from other texts that came from the true believers in Jesus;…so why would the Ebonite's accept/keep such a book if they knew the real and true original teachings etc…?

Perhaps they (Ebonite's) were just playing along; you know, towing the party line, so to speak, to avoid being persecuted, although ultimately they ended up getting persecuted anyway…

Originally posted by Malocchio
Praise Allah.

I literally just got out of Masjid, the Mosque and I always feel at peace after.

You’re a Muslim!!!

I know this is little off topic, but how can you be a Muslim…I mean you study the Kabbala, and you understand certain esoteric teachings and read other Apocryphal writings etc…

So how can you be a Muslim…?…how does that work exactly…?

Btw – I’m not a Muslim, a Jew, or a Christian myself…I just believe in what I call the “Real Jesus”…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

There is not much trustability in the writings of Eusebius who invented a man named Ebion to say was the founder of the Ebionites.

He would have had no problem lying about anything to please his masters and besides the original Hebrew Matthew they had a Gospel that Clement quotes as though it's the Gospel of the Hebrews but is clearly the Gospel of Thomas.

Also a Gospel of the Ebionites is quoted from so I doubt that their Gospel had anything to do with Matthew, Eusebius was not that bright really.

They actually wrote most of the Apocrypha rejected by the Catholic Church.

What does being a Muslim have to do with studying other religions? Did the US pass a law banning Muslims from reading Jewish books? (not like I would obey if)

There is no ban on scholarly study of religion in Islam, you have us confused with Orthodox Christianity. I have a book in my hand I just quoted from written by a Muslim about Christianity.

That's actually a little insulting to insinuate that because I am of one religion I can't learn about others, that's not what I am about.

Peace and love !

Again , for any spiritual being to become enlightened , the bible can not be taken literally ! There cannot be theories as theories are conformity to the spiritually blind , deaf and dumb ! The game of commerce is run by the pharisees ! Why are all of you fighting amongts each other ? The system is a sewer and it is finished ! Chester john is just a bully in the figurative sand box of the fake world using the bible to make slaves and not set others free , like all dictators ! The criminal rothschilds and their criminal accomplices do not own us and jesus is not coming back ! All of us loving souls can become like jesus and become enlightened ! Who cares about stars or trophies ! The truth remains when all questioning ends ! Peace and love from the mystical metal hippie:

Peace and love ! Do any of you loving souls ever wonder where a bank comes from ? A bank is on both sides of a river !All commerce is from ucc code , which is the code of all tyrants from the babylonian talmud , which is the oral code of the pharisees disguised as religion ! You ask , What does this have to do with the topic ? The answer is everything ! The powers that should not be , at that time hi jacked the teachings of jesus after jesus was murdered and instead of setting the public free with the teachings , the evil ones chose to use the teachings to enslave the public ! The criminal masons are proxies for the criminal rothschilds to deceive the public with hoax drills that are not real but put out as if they were real on tv and the internet or the cinema ! Do not let any materialist deceive your minds ! All masons are not to be trusted ever ! All loving souls study morals and dogma , albert pikes vision of three world wars,the protocols of the learned elders of zion and the babylonian talmud to see who our enemies are ! All pharisees are of the satans unconsciousness , not the christ consciousness ! The criminal rothschilds and their criminal accomplices are not gods chosen as they are satan ! Peace and love from the mystical metal hippie

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

There is only one version that has all the verses. You will need to compare them as I did before I realized one had all the verses. It is most hated just like the living word is. It has a built in dictionary defining ever word by its context and it has a build in cross reference using it words, phrases and verses.

No other Bible is like it.

a reply to: Joecroft

That is what they want you to think. But there god is an old god of the Arab tribes of Mecca known as the moon god, and it was said he had two daughters.

Allah recently is the god of war as 99% of the wars on the planted involve Islamist of varying degrees. ISIS is a great example of how warring their god is.

Our Lord Jesus is God, when he was here was the fulness of God bodily as taught in scriptures

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Do you think Jesus and Allah are the same?

Don't let anyone deceive you for Jesus is the head of all principality and power.