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Did Paul Invent Christianity?

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posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor


That's why He came. Not to be a blood sacrifice, but to show us who the true Father was and what He was like. THAT'S why the character YHWH and the Father Jesus represented are so radically different in character.

I see now our greatest difference in understanding scriptures of apostles. I understand that you have the notion that there are several gods represented in Christian scriptures. Actually there is only one God in Christian literature and that being the same in the OT as in the NT.

I believe you have admitted that the OT God of Moses with all of the unneeded sacrifice is a rotten cruel God and that the God of Jesus is a kind and loving compassionate God. If I am wrong then please correct me. I also believe that you then with that belief could not bring yourself to believe that the NT God of Jesus could be possibly be one who would kill or shed blood.

Why then would the loving Jesus say in the red letter edition of most bibles --

John 5:46,47
(46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
(47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Is not the loving Jesus saying that He approves of what Moses has put in his book? If you cannot believe in Moses then you cannot believe in Jesus. Am I reading this wrong? Then Moses wrote of His God and Jesus approves that Moses' God is His God also. Where then are there two Gods of the Christian philosophy?

How then did Moses write of Jesus? Was it, as John tells us, that there is one Creator and that is Jesus. If so then did not the Creator Jesus give the laws of Moses? And is it not the loving Jesus who teaches us many times of the eternal punishments of hell? And was it not the loving Jesus who sent the apostles to go and prepare the Passover? [How did one prepare a Passover?] And who judges men that they burn in the lake of fire? [Forever?] Who then ushers in the resurrection and allows the beast and antichrist to have their way with men and kill millions and burn the earth. And who is it that approves all of the human race to face a last day death of untold proportions. Is it not the same Jesus that you adore?


Because the Essenes and Ebionites believed that the "Torah" that the priests were teaching was false...and corrupted through Babylonian influence (and no telling what else). So no. I don't believe the Torah that is in our Bible's is the true one. I also think Jesus cherry picked verses, contradicted YHWH, and did not "keep the LAW" as was written in the Torah at that time (and now), because it was not the TRUE one that the Most High gave Moses.
But hey, if you want to believe it all fits together, fine. I don't.
Jesus was the Word, right? He WAS the TRUE TORAH of the Most High....that's what He came to show us.




posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to: Matrixsurvivor YWHW isa Greek tribal god of wisdom, you do remember there were two distinct Greek groups in Greece, one of brawn and one of knowledge?

JHVH the God of the Jews is the LORD God Almighty.

Jesus made a whip and drove them out because his fathers house (his house)which is to be a house of PRAYER

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Mt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mr 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Lu 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.


So you think you can call God to judgement on violence. I do hope your arms are long enough and your strength greater that His because you will lose.

Yeah, always have to return to the Greek to change God's preserved word just like the so called scholars. Even though, like them, you have no ORIGINAL Greek autograph in your hands only copies which cannot be verified because you have no original.

I know Greek had years of it at Seminary before I graduated. Sorry I have learned that school benefited me nothing in knowing the word of God. Knowledge cometh by hearing the word of God not by hearing the words of men.

Oh and Jesus didn't represent JHVH, HE is JEHOVAH LORD GOD Almighty.

Something it seems you deny.


edit on 1-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 09:28 PM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

could it not be that Aeschylus (525–456 B.C.), in Agamemnon, line 1624--or lines 2341 & 2342 at (see Stewart Custer, Witness to Christ, BJU Press, p.164. . . BJU press est in 1973) quoted Paul and not the other way around?

It would seem the later is last not first. Paul said it then they copied him in order to confuse, for they were the hands of Satan in this world for the devil is the author of confusion.


edit on 1-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: Seede

you are correct Seede, Jesus is the creator, he is the LORD GOD Almighty

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



edit on 1-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 09:43 PM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Essenes and Ebionites two groups of mysterious standing and yet you consider them to be true over the preserved word of God.

You are a work aren't you. Jesus was not a Essene or an Ebionite. All your proof is from out side biblical sources and not from the preserved word of God.

"Our Bible" are you a JEW, blood born of Israel?

Be truthful now. And if so it still does not matter for only the gospel of the grace of God saves ALL men, Jew or Gentile today.

But if you place your trust in the torah then obey all of it. Which will be pretty hard seeing there is not temple in Jerusalem, and you are not living in the land If Israel with a temple today.


edit on 1-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 11:29 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn






So you think you can call God to judgement on violence. I do hope your arms are long enough and your strength greater that His because you will lose.


No, I call a god to judgment that orders innocent sentient beings to death for YOUR sin!!! Yes, I will judge that "god" and I don't give a dang if you think I will lose or not. IF that is the true god, then I want nothing to do with him. He can send me to hell for all I care.
You know what? I spent tonight at a petting zoo with my son. I watched all those little children in rapture over those animals (and all those animals were babies). Children UNDERSTAND you don't hurt something that is innocent and feel's PAIN.
HOWEVER, I bet YOU never think about those animals that suffer, do you? Well, I do. If the "god" that ordered us to not only sacrifice them for our sins, but EAT them, as well...is good, then you are so wrong on so many levels that you don't know what TRUE LOVE OR MERCY IS!
Do you want to know what my arms are long enough for, Chester? Embracing a little baby chick, or a little baby lamb, or a little baby cow....and knowing there's no way in hell I would hurt one of them. I don't eat them, either. Do you?
So, don't tell me I don't know anything about mercy or love or JESUS. Cause the God I've experienced and the Jesus I've experienced, isn't a killer of innocent creatures. Maybe YOU are. But, not Them, and not me.



posted on Oct, 1 2016 @ 11:38 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Es


Essenes and Ebionites two groups of mysterious standing and yet you consider them to be true over the preserved word of God.


Nope. I just think they were more true to who Jesus represented. I don't give a crap about "the preserved word of god"...because IT'S NOT PRESERVED.







u are a work aren't you. Jesus was not a Essene or an Ebionite. All your proof is from out side biblical sources and not from the preserved word of God.


You sound like a broken record, Chester. Yea, I went OUTSIDE the Bible (aghast!).
"Our Bible" are you a JEW, blood born of Israel?




Be truthful now. And if so it still does not matter for only the gospel of the grace of God saves ALL men, Jew or Gentile today.

Do you honestly think I haven't been truthful? You just don't like it, do you?




But if you place your trust in the torah then obey all of it. Which will be pretty hard seeing there is not temple in Jerusalem, and you are not living in the land If Israel with a temple today.


Already told you the Torah in our Bible's is bunk. Next accusation? Chester, you're losing your cool, bro. Keep it coming, though. You're showing your Pauline colors.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 05:51 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor


No, I call a god to judgment that orders innocent sentient beings to death for YOUR sin!!!


Right. So apparently if they are killed so that we can be reconciled to God its an abomination in your eyes, but if we kill the same innocent sentient beings so that we can eat a cheeseburger it's fine. Got it.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 05:59 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn


Yeah, always have to return to the Greek to change God's preserved word just like the so called scholars. Even though, like them, you have no ORIGINAL Greek autograph in your hands only copies which cannot be verified because you have no original.


The 1611 KJV was translated from those Greek manuscripts, they didn't have the originals either. English is a lazy language compared to the Hebrew and Greek, if you want to enjoy to full flavor of what the Biblical writers were saying you learn Hebrew and Greek and read the word of God in its original language. Just one example in Hebrew there are 7 different words with 7 totally different meanings that all get translated as "praise" in the OT. In the NT there are 5 different Greek words with 5 different meanings and all 5 get translated into the word "love" in English. Simple things like that.


Oh and Jesus didn't represent JHVH, HE is JEHOVAH LORD GOD Almighty.


There is no letter J in Hebrew, nor is there a J phonetic sound. That's a transliteration from the German language into English. The correct Name for God, which appears over 8,000 times in the Tenakh is "YHWH". Jesus did not speak German or English.






edit on 10 2 2016 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 09:46 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor


No, I call a god to judgment that orders innocent sentient beings to death for YOUR sin!!! Yes, I will judge that "god" and I don't give a dang if you think I will lose or not. IF that is the true god, then I want nothing to do with him. He can send me to hell for all I care.

I admire you for those feelings as we should all have the same. Taking an innocent life is a not right and you are correct in that it is the perfect will of our Lord Jesus that we eat of the trees and not life forms. That is true and that is what shall be in the New Jerusalem.

But the Creator gave the world to us to dress and keep and to rule over all life forms and do as we wish. That is His permissive will. Even though it is not to His liking He cannot break that promise of giving us the world. All He can do now is to instill your feelings into us that have not those feelings and I am afraid that involves innocent life of all sorts. Science tortures all sorts of animal and human life with experiments of all sorts while medical people all over the world kill infants and throw them aside as garbage. Millions of life forms are destroyed every day without a thing the Creator can do.

But that is not the fault of the Creator. Why do you blame God who has never approved this in the first place? By His foreknowledge He knew and knows each and every life form that has ever existed and will ever exist but what is the solution without breaking His word? I know you are just as concerned with murdering a infant as you are with any life but what can you do to stop this madness? You can't and that is frustrating to both you and myself and I am quite sure that people such as Chester John feel the same way. Needless killing is wrong and I agree with you completely.

All of this will pass and after it is finished then you and your loved ones can sit under the trees of life and drink of the water of life in your new body which will be forever. That is what all of this argument is about. How do we get there? We cannot get there with hate. We cannot despise people and shake our fist at God in anger when it is all our own fault. We are the ones who created this mess and God simply abides in His own Word and allows us to do as we are doing.

He so loved us that He gave His only Begotten Son so that we can live forever. But I have also good news for you. Those infants and animals will live and are living once again. The book of 2nd Enoch tells us that the slaughtered lamb or the old cow in the pasture will also enjoy life again. Enoch tells us that there is a great paddock for all life and that includes the little sparrow who fell from the sky.

So where do I start? I start with working with the children for in them is the kingdom of heaven. You are correct when you go to the petting zoo and love the little ones and you are correct to love as you do but you are not correct to challenge the Holy Father for mankind's sins. Eternal life is a gift and it is yours only in love. End of Sermon- LOL



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:04 AM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical






Right. So apparently if they are killed so that we can be reconciled to God its an abomination in your eyes, but if we kill the same innocent sentient beings so that we can eat a cheeseburger it's fine. Got it.


I don't eat them, did you miss that part? So no, I don't think killing animals for food is right. I know it's the way the world is, which has caused me to question a LOT about this planet and who came up with that idea. We live in a predatory world. Animals kill, too.
Of course, the biblical view on the above, is that we are the cause of it, due to the fall. Paul takes it even further and says that God turned the creation over to corruption, due to the sin of Adam and Eve, and it will be returned back to it's original state when Jesus returns.
Let me ask you something? Would you want someone/thing to kill and eat you?? Animals aren't stupid. They feel emotions and pain just as you do. What we as a species have done to them is abhorrent. Something is terribly wrong with that whole picture.
Jesus said, "you will know by it's fruit" whether something is good or evil. The "fruit" of "God" saying to kill and eat animals OR sacrifice them for our sins, has led to the heartless slaughter of innocent creatures by the millions.
Anyway, that's off topic I know, but it's one of the many things that has changed my view of the Bible and caused me to seek out other answers to certain questions I have.
You ever been to a slaughter house? I've watched many videos of undercover people who worked there for awhile. Not only do you realize the animals in those places are crying for some sort of mercy and receive NONE, but the people who work in those places are sadistic beyond belief. It's just WRONG to do that to another sentient being. Period.
I don't care if people think that's crazy sounding. I know in my heart it's wrong. I want nothing to do with a God who would condone murder of innocents (and that includes children and infants).
But, you go ahead and enjoy your cheeseburger's.

edit on 2-10-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical

No but they had God to preserve his words through them. The English that the translators used in the AV was not a lazy language it was prefect. today's American English is the lazy one. It has no respectful terms and often resorts to profanity in many of the modern translations since the 1830's.

So what difference does it make about the letter J, often the letter J is pronounced in a silent manner in foreign language. The name of the Greek tribal god of wisdom known as yaweh, was transliterated into the Greek by the Jews who were taken to Greece under Alexander the great, to translate the four books of the law and the book of Daniel into Greek, using YHWH in place of LORD, but transliterated into English for proper pronunciation of JHVH, Jehovah which could be pronounced with and without a silent J, like the word Jaquin (Jack) or Jaun (John). Jews were very careful not to violate the pronunciation of the Name of the LORD as not to take it in vain. But you vainly use it to bolster your pride.

Did you know that in the English the full English word Jehovah is only used 4 times and all the letters are Capital and present in the full name, in every ancient Greek and Hebrew copy?

Anyway, all the Bible is for Christians today but not all of it is written to us. Read you own mail not that of another.


edit on 2-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:10 AM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical

It is funny I never made any type of Animal sacrifice, nor do I know of anyone who has ever made an Animal sacrifice personally. You caim that a animal died for my sins is a sham and a lie. Only Christ , God in the flesh died on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins and that only applies if I believe on his work of the cross for me personally. And that you don't believe what Jesus told his disciples/Apostles, whom you trust more than Jesus, and he also said it through Paul, when he said,

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


And as far as I could see animal sacrifice was only for his called out ones Noah, Abraham, Issac and Israel and his people when they came into the land out of Egypt. And without a temple in Jerusalem no one could do it and it be accepted by the LORD. so your claim I had an innocent animal slain for my sins is wrong. I never claimed any little animal was sacrificed for me.

But Christ did die for me as he stated above. something you don't believe seeing you only see Jesus as being a beautiful person.

The word CR#P is not mine but yours. I did not use it in any of my posts and there by you try to malign me.

Once you don't care about God keeping his word to preserve it to every generation as he promised then you have already sinned the sin of unbelief in God against the Holy Ghost and our Lord Jesus Christ.



edit on 2-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:23 AM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor


No, I call a god to judgment that orders innocent sentient beings to death for YOUR sin!!! Yes, I will judge that "god" and I don't give a dang if you think I will lose or not. IF that is the true god, then I want nothing to do with him. He can send me to hell for all I care.

I admire you for those feelings as we should all have the same. Taking an innocent life is a not right and you are correct in that it is the perfect will of our Lord Jesus that we eat of the trees and not life forms. That is true and that is what shall be in the New Jerusalem.

But the Creator gave the world to us to dress and keep and to rule over all life forms and do as we wish. That is His permissive will. Even though it is not to His liking He cannot break that promise of giving us the world. All He can do now is to instill your feelings into us that have not those feelings and I am afraid that involves innocent life of all sorts. Science tortures all sorts of animal and human life with experiments of all sorts while medical people all over the world kill infants and throw them aside as garbage. Millions of life forms are destroyed every day without a thing the Creator can do.

But that is not the fault of the Creator. Why do you blame God who has never approved this in the first place? By His foreknowledge He knew and knows each and every life form that has ever existed and will ever exist but what is the solution without breaking His word? I know you are just as concerned with murdering a infant as you are with any life but what can you do to stop this madness? You can't and that is frustrating to both you and myself and I am quite sure that people such as Chester John feel the same way. Needless killing is wrong and I agree with you completely.

All of this will pass and after it is finished then you and your loved ones can sit under the trees of life and drink of the water of life in your new body which will be forever. That is what all of this argument is about. How do we get there? We cannot get there with hate. We cannot despise people and shake our fist at God in anger when it is all our own fault. We are the ones who created this mess and God simply abides in His own Word and allows us to do as we are doing.

He so loved us that He gave His only Begotten Son so that we can live forever. But I have also good news for you. Those infants and animals will live and are living once again. The book of 2nd Enoch tells us that the slaughtered lamb or the old cow in the pasture will also enjoy life again. Enoch tells us that there is a great paddock for all life and that includes the little sparrow who fell from the sky.

So where do I start? I start with working with the children for in them is the kingdom of heaven. You are correct when you go to the petting zoo and love the little ones and you are correct to love as you do but you are not correct to challenge the Holy Father for mankind's sins. Eternal life is a gift and it is yours only in love. End of Sermon- LOL


Thanks, Seede. I think you are getting more of where I am coming from. It's mostly frustration at all the pain and suffering on this miserable planet.
I still don't believe the sacrificial system in the OT is right, nor did the Father ever want it. There are many places in the books of the prophets (such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc.) where the prophet speaking for God went up against the corrupt priests doing sacrifices and condemned them. In Jeremiah 7:22-23, God says this....
22“For I did not For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.s what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24“Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. 25“Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. 26“Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers.

There are many other verses that seem to suggest that the Most High never wanted animals sacrificed. Mostly in the prophets. No wonder they were persecuted, ignored, and killed off.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:28 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

God gave men the right to eat of every moving thing for food. Or did you forget that scripture?

Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

edit on 2-10-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:39 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn



so your claim I had an innocent animal slain for my sins is wrong. I never claimed any little animal was sacrificed for me.

You were probably addressing me, not NotURtypical.
I was making the point that a GOD that requires animal sacrifice for your or my sin (or anyone's for that matter) is not GOOD. I don't think you sacrifice animals, however the God you believe in did supposedly command it. I say "supposedly" because I don't believe the Father of Jesus ever wanted that. There are verses in the books of the prophets that point to that fact.




But Christ did die for me as he sated above. something you don't believe seeing you only see Jesus as being a beautiful person.


Now, how by me saying I think Jesus is a beautiful person, makes you think I don't believe in Him at all? I just don't see Him through the "Paul filter". I take Jesus at HIS words....not Paul's.
And I'm sorry for saying "crap". Didn't know that would be offensive to you. I don't like being told "you're a piece of work", either.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

God gave men the right to eat of every moving thing for food. Or did you forget that scripture?

Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.


Oh no, I KNOW that God told us we could eat them. Therein lies my problem with "said god". I see where that command from God has led. The fruit of that command is rotten. Animals are mass produced today and treated horrifically.
Most don't even know that or care.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 11:06 AM
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a reply to: Seede






We cannot despise people and shake our fist at God in anger when it is all our own fault. We are the ones who created this mess and God simply abides in His own Word and allows us to do as we are doing.


How did "WE" create this mess? Yes, humans have done much evil, but so has the OT YHWH.
Not only that, but if GOD had just SAID, "don't EAT or harm animals", we wouldn't be doing it, now would we? There was no reason to ever, ever, allow such a thing.
The OT is so full of contradictions. For instance, Moses comes down off the mountain with the 10 commandments, one of which is "don't kill". Then, here's a big party going on around a golden calf. What does YHWH now tell Moses to do? Separate those who were loyal to YHWH and those who weren't, then tells the ones who are to KILL everyone else.
Talk about a hypocrite.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Israel tried to claim God was unfair or in their words

Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
They like you think God's ways are not balanced but it is you who is unbalanced in all your ways.



posted on Oct, 2 2016 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Israel tried to claim God was unfair or in their words

Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
They like you think God's ways are not balanced but it is you who is unbalanced in all your ways.


Unbalanced? Because I don't hold to the inerrancy of the bible? Okay.
Sacrificing animals is not balanced. Telling us to eat them is not balanced. Commanding the slaughter of women, children, infants, and all animals from a group of people, is not balanced.
If I see that as wrong, yet because it's in the book, you think it's right, you label me unbalanced.
This WHOLE world is unbalanced. Christianity is included in that.

edit on 2-10-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)



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