Did Paul Invent Christianity?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

You should also take another look at why Jesus went postal on the money changers at the temple. It wasn't because of "money", it was because of what they were doing to innocent animals in "God's name".

Lol, no it wasn't. The people selling sacrificial animals at the temple were helping every one of their customers to offer an animal that was different than the way commanded in the Torah. A family had to bring one of their own with them to the temple, one from their own herds or flocks. God was extremely specific about what was an acceptable sacrifice at the temple for sin.

Yea, that's if you believe YHWH's laws were what Jesus followed. Tell you what, name ONE law of YHWH Jesus kept. Just ONE.
You are correct on one thing...YHWH did demand certain sacrifices for sin. So, tell me this too, how did Jesus forgive sin before he shed his blood for the remission of sin? Or, better yet, tell me whether John's baptism is from heaven or men?
Isn't that what Jesus asked the Pharisee's and scribes? Wonder why he asked that question?
Here's a hint..if John's baptism wasn't from heaven (which was baptism in water for the forgiveness of sin), then that forgiveness doesn't count, correct?
Apparently, those religious rulers couldn't answer Jesus. Can you?

The Bible doesn't say, but I assume it was told to him to do from an angel or from a prophet, either way it was from God. John only says a "he" told him to come to the Jordan and baptize until he baptized a man and then saw the Holy Spirit descend on that person and rest upon him like as a dove. (John 1:33)

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can't accept the kingdom gospel without keeping the law.

I'm not familiar with the kingdom gospel, I only know of the gospel of Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians chapter 15)

Matthew 19:16-20New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Rich Young Ruler

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There isThere is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The Bible doesn't say, but I assume it was told to him to do from an angel or from a prophet, either way it was from God. John only says a "he" told him to come to the Jordan and baptize until he baptized a man and then saw the Holy Spirit descend on that person and rest upon him like as a dove. (John 1:33)

That's not what I asked. I asked you to tell me if the forgiveness through water baptism was legit. Did God accept the repentance of those people John baptized or not? My point being, Jesus was pointing that SAME thing out to the religious rulers who were putting Him in the hot spot (as usual). They didn't dare answer Jesus, because John was considered a prophet by the people. The priests and religious rulers held power over the people. They taught that God could not forgive sin unless an animal was brought to the temple for sacrifice. Quite a lucrative business for them, as well.
So, once again....how could those people going to the Jordan for water baptism be forgiven, if Jesus had not yet gone to the cross?

Paul said....
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10



Jesus said....
so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.


So, who ya gonna believe?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Paul said....
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10



Jesus said....
so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.


So, who ya gonna believe?

Both. Paul was referring back to the writings of David and Isaiah.

"As it is written"

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can't accept the kingdom gospel without keeping the law.

I'm not familiar with the kingdom gospel, I only know of the gospel of Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians chapter 15)

Matthew 19:16-20New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Rich Young Ruler

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There isThere is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I agree with what Jesus said, if someone wants to inherit eternal life on their own merits they need to keep all the comandments. The rich young ruler never asked Jesus how to make it to heaven, he asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit the kingdom of God on his own. Jesus is always perfectly specific when talking or answering questions.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Text originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor Yea, that's if you believe YHWH's laws were what Jesus followed. Tell you what, name ONE law of YHWH Jesus kept. Just ONE. You are correct on one thing...YHWH did demand certain sacrifices for sin. So, tell me this too, how did Jesus forgive sin before he shed his blood for the remission of sin? Or, better yet, tell me whether John's baptism is from heaven or men? Isn't that what Jesus asked the Pharisee's and scribes? Wonder why he asked that question? Here's a hint..if John's baptism wasn't from heaven (which was baptism in water for the forgiveness of sin), then that forgiveness doesn't count, correct? Apparently, those religious rulers couldn't answer Jesus. Can you?

You answered

The Bible doesn't say, but I assume it was told to him to do from an angel or from a prophet, either way it was from God. John only says a "he" told him to come to the Jordan and baptize until he baptized a man and then saw the Holy Spirit descend on that person and rest upon him like as a dove. (John 1:33)

It all depends upon what is is.

John 1:1-3
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Your answers lays within the scriptures.

Jesus was and is those laws. The Father and Jesus were and are one.

Matthew 22:37,38
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.

But Matthew 22:37,38 is not one of the ten laws of Moses. You see how Laws, Commands, Statutes, can be misrepresented? Jesus being the law maker fulfilled (made complete) His very own laws. He gave those laws as He was the Creator and He fulfilled His laws as He became flesh.

Before His death Jesus forgave sin because He was the Creator who made sin visible to His creation through the law. He did not die in order to forgive sin only but to reveal His kingdom of heaven to His creation. In order to receive the kingdom of heaven that one must must be forgiven sin and in that respect it is taught that Jesus came to forgive sin. The law knew no forgiveness. The law knew only punishment of sin.

John's baptism was one of forgiveness without the revelation of the kingdom of heaven. The Holy Spirit baptized in forgiveness and the kingdom of heaven. John's baptism was denied by the priestly authority because no knowledge (at that time) was given of any kingdom of heaven and authority of salvation in Sheol was claimed by the priestly teachings.
If the pharisees had answered that John's baptism was from heaven then their authority would have been destroyed. The religious leaders could not answer because they did not believe.

The same problem exists today. One must believe that Jesus is the Begotten of the Father and is the Father.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

That's not what I asked. I asked you to tell me if the forgiveness through water baptism was legit. Did God accept the repentance of those people John baptized or not?

I would guess God didn't based on what Jesus said in John 8:24, He said if people didn't believe that He was the Lord they would "die in their sins". John was sent to prepare the way of the Lord, I think his water baptism was a relatively new practice considering usually the ritual cleansing was done in baths right outside the temple walls before a person would bring their sacrifice to the Levite priests. Whomever told John to go the the Jordan river and begin baptizing people, whether it be an angel or a prophet is unclear, it's purpose I assume was to type and foreshadow a Christian baptism in water that Jesus would soon teach to His disciples to do when they made converts.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Faith in Christ forgives sin, but under the gospel of the Kingdom, Baptism and repentance were part of that which the Believers of the kingdom Gospel had to do to show their faith by these works. James the brother of John showed this in his letter to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Both. Paul was referring back to the writings of David and Isaiah.

Paul was referencing Psalm 14 and 53. Yet, just as I pointed out in an earlier post, Paul took those Psalms out of context.
Go read them. Both of them are making a distinction between the "fool who says there is no God", but that God is with the RIGHTEOUS GENERATION.
So, there was a righteous generation BEFORE Jesus was even born.
Yet, Paul said there were NONE righteous.
Kind of a quagmire there.

Short answer.... YES

Longer answer.... The Sun manifested itself, Paul jumped on the band wagon and later Constantine joined in on the crazy and bumpy ride.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

That's not what I asked. I asked you to tell me if the forgiveness through water baptism was legit. Did God accept the repentance of those people John baptized or not?

I would guess God didn't based on what Jesus said in John 8:24, He said if people didn't believe that He was the Lord they would "die in their sins". John was sent to prepare the way of the Lord, I think his water baptism was a relatively new practice considering usually the ritual cleansing was done in baths right outside the temple walls before a person would bring their sacrifice to the Levite priests. Whomever told John to go the the Jordan river and begin baptizing people, whether it be an angel or a prophet is unclear, it's purpose I assume was to type and foreshadow a Christian baptism in water that Jesus would soon teach to His disciples to do when they made converts.

Then, why did Jesus respond with a question to those religious leaders...
The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:25

The Levite priests and other religious rulers did not believe you could be forgiven unless you killed an innocent animal.
Apparently, John was showing them (and others) a different way to be cleansed and forgiven. No blood needed to be shed. The religious rulers didn't believe John. Jesus was pointing this out and turning it right back around onto them.;

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Well then you need to Judge God with the same rule you are judging Paul because God said by his servant David, that there was none that did good,

Ps14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Or do you believe this is a contradiction that that God is in error and you are wiser than He? Is Paul wrong in sayiing in Hebrews that those who seek him will be rewarded when God says there is none that seek God?

Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You see it is easy to bring some verses together out of context and make it look like wisdom when in fact it is foolishness.

a reply to: Seede

The same problem exists today. One must believe that Jesus is the Begotten of the Father and is the Father.

I actually agree with much of the things you say. (not everything, but some, lol). Yes, Jesus was Begotten of the Father, but I don't believe He IS the Father. Jesus called the Father "His God", just as He told us to. Being "one" with the Father does not make Jesus the Father. Jesus Himself prayed to the Father. Was He praying to Himself?

I also (like I've said many times) don't believe Jesus represented YHWH at all.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

If the the law of Moses is universal why doe sit say it is for all Israel?

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

sowing and reaping again has more to do with God's children both Israel (the majority) and Christians(the minority)

Ps 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Pr 22:8 ¶ He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Jer 12:13 They have sown wheat, but shall reap thorns: they have put themselves to pain, [but] shall not profit: and they shall be ashamed of your revenues because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Hos 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
2Co 9:6 ¶ But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Ga 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So it doesn't seem to be a general Universal law wen it comes to God.

As far as blood of a lamb for Israel

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Le 17:11

It wasn't until Paul that the Gentiles could benefit from the shedding of blood especially if they lived not in Israel, for the law only applied in Israel for Israel and the strangers that live among them in the land. But now today both Jew and Gentile are saved by the blood or Christ

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

a reply to: ChesterJohn

[Well then you need to Judge God with the same rule you are judging Paul because God said by his servant David, that there was none that did good,

Here's the rest of that Psalm, in context.


Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
5
There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.6
You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the Lord is his refuge.



7
Oh, that the salvation of Israel [c]would come out of Zion!
When the Lord [d]restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.


So, once again....this Psalm is not saying that EVERYONE is unrighteous. It's contrasting those who say there is no God and who are EATING UP GOD'S people......with the righteous generation, whom God is their refuge.
However, Paul used it to say it applied to everyone on the face of the planet who'd ever been born.
When Jesus and GOD BOTH called certain individuals righteous.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Those found in Paul's letters refer to the Gospel of the Grace of God, that he was to witness of

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Ro 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Ro 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Ro 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
2Co 2:12 ¶ Furthermore, when I came to Troas to [preach] Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];
2Co 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond [our measure], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [preaching] the gospel of Christ:
Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ro 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 ¶ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

The gospel before the gospel of the Grace of God that was preached was called the gospel of the kingdom

Mt 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mt 9:35 ¶ And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mr 1:14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

then there is a gospel called the Everlasting Gospel preached by an angel

Re 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

The problem lay in that men make these all one and the same gospel but when you study the differences in them you will learn that there are only three different gospels.

One called the gospel of the kingdom requires Jews at the time of Christ and the Apostles, and to all who are saved by it in the great tribulation(yet to come) to show their faith by their works so when the kingdom comes they shall receive salvation.

One called the gospel of the grace of God (which Paul speaks about using a few unique gospel terms only found in his writings) requires faith alone for salvation that good works should follow.

And One that is called the everlasting gospel commands all men to believe and give glory to God for he is about to judge them.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Did you miss this part? Jesus' "gospel of the Kingdom" shall be preached in ALL THE WORLD. It wasn't just for Israel.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The problem lay in that men make these all one and the same gospel but when you study the differences in them you will learn that there are only three different gospels.

NO, there's not. There's only the Kingdom gospel (which would also be the Everlasting gospel the angels in Rev. preach).
Paul's gospel is bullcrap. It's his own made up "Christ crucified" "justified by grace alone" spiel he invented. Oh, and wasn't it PAUL who said if anyone preaches a different gospel than HIS...including an ANGEL from Heaven, then let them be accursed?
Here ya go.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [c]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [d]contrary to what you received, he is to be [e]accursed!

Hmmm.....so I guess those angels coming in the end to preach about the EVERLASTING GOSPEL (you know, the one JESUS taught), then most Paulinians won't believe those angels, since Paul told them all not to listen to them....even cursed those who would.
Paul sure liked cursing people, or turning them over to Satan, or talking behind their backs.
If you can't take Jesus at His word now (over Paul's) and that the TRUE gospel IS the Kingdom gospel, then what makes you think you will listen to those angels who show up and contradict Paul?