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Round 1. JediMaster v.s. Simulacra: Censorship of Media

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posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 05:17 PM
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The topic for this debate is "Todays media contains many violent images and needs to be censored."

JediMaster will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Simulacra will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 11 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (6) is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.




posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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First I would like to thank the judges and wish goodluck to my opponent in the following debate.

A mouse wielding a large sharp knife is chasing a cat. The cat trips and is cut into tiny bloody pieces and the mouse laughs.

That is just what a typical showing of "Itchy and Scratchy" a cartoon within the cartoon, The Simpsons. As the cat is dismembered the Simpson children laugh hysterically. This is just a satirized version of how our children view extreme violence in the media.


According to reports done by the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry and they have discovered. (Source)

"1. Become "immune" to the horror of violence
2. Gradually accept violence as a way to solve problems
3. Imitate the violence they observe on television; and
4. Identify with certain characters, victims and/or victimizers"

The first point is true the more exposure a child has to violence the more he gets used to it and sees it as normal. Sure you may say "Well its fake", but an eight or seven year old does not know the difference. Eventually the child nearly becomes like Alex of "A Clockwork Orange" and becomes immune to the "old ultra-violence".

For point number two is another fact. Once one becomes accustomed to violence they see it as a way to solve whatever problems lay in their path. Gone is talking and reasoning instead it’s just punches and kicks.

The imitation of violence is one of the worst problems that children face. Remember the old debate many years ago over kids pretending to be Power Rangers and ended up hurting many of their friends? Recently it’s wrestling. The WWE looks quite real to the eyes of a young boy and he just wants to be like The Rock. Recently in a 5 year old child injured his 22 month year old cousin while imitating the wresting moves he saw on TV (Source)

A child needs heroes and sometimes the child sees the wrong hero. He thinks being a vigilante like the Punisher or some crazed bad cop is the way to go instead of looking up the good heroes. They try to be like their violent idols or they see them selves in the victim who is brutally harmed by the sadistic villain.

I will touch upon these issues later but these are the groundwork as to why we need to censor the violence in our media.

Thank you and offer to you Sim.



posted on Jan, 23 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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First I would like to thank Mackiller and whoever else is involved for making this possible, this should be interesting.

Now lets see who will be the Master Debater!

The fact that you tried to prove a serious and valid point using the ultra-violent and unrealistic ‘Itchy and Scratchy’ cartoon is completely absurd; and here’s why:

Image removed. Please review rules, no images in opening statement

Has the number of murders by astronomically stretching out one’s tongue to outer space, tying it around the moon and waiting for the victim to swallow a celestial entity risen in the past decade? What about replacing a person’s eyeballs with cherry bombs without the person even realizing?

Illogical cartoon ultra violence at it’s best. The separation of the above events from reality is enormous. Our media has been a virtual scapegoat for the past fifteen years. It is unjustly blamed as the cause of all social ills that exist in America. If a pre-teen finds a gun in her father’s cabinet and brings it to her school, who is to blame? Surely you will hear censorship activist demanding that ‘Grand Theft Auto’ be pulled from store shelves and replaced with the less violent ‘Barnaby Bible Adventures’ because we all know that a simulated game about reality is just too real. But what about the father that stored the gun in his linen closet? Or what about the young girl that found it? Surely she was peer-pressured by a video-game wrestler or a ‘cartoon cat’. It is naive to believe that Sunday morning cartoons have more influence on today’s youth than good parenting. A well educated child will know not to touch a gun. A well educated parent will know not to keep a loaded gun in the reach of children. And a well-educated society will know that censorship is just a form of ignorance in disguise.

It isn’t so simple to filter out reality.

Censorship creates a disillusioned society. Censors believe that covering the eyes and plugging the ears of America’s population will thus create a society that will be free of troubles. This is laughable at best. Do you realize that 99.9% of complaints to the FCC stems from the action of one organization named the ‘Parents Television Council’(Source).

Do you want an organization like this controlling your life? Accepting a censored America is about as un-patriotic as burning your countries flag. It’s time we need a hearty helping of Freedom of Speech? Any takers?

In the land of the censored, the one with unrestricted knowledge is king.

[edit on 23/1/05 by MacKiller]



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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The Itchy and Scratchy cartoon was used to show how children view violence on TV, as funny.

Now the fact is Sim we need the censorship to protect our nation's children. Far too many parents do not care and its up to organizations like the FCC to help these children.

Violence is not only found in television; it is all around in our media. Movies, music, the news, and television as I pointed out.

Violence in Rap Lyrics

In many rap songs there is a large amount of profanity, violence and sex. One such example is

"I kill a devil right now. . . . I say kill whitey all nightey long. . . .I stabbed a #ing Jew with a steeple. . . . I would kill a cracker for nothing, just for the # of it. . . . Menace Clan kill a cracker; jack 'em even quicker. . . . catch that devil slipping; blow his #ing brains out"-Menace Clan, Da Hood

He may not be a mainstream rapper but here a few example from more well known artists.

"Nothing left to do, but buy some shells for my glock
Why? so I can rob every known dope spot
I got 19 dollars and 50 cents up in my pocket with what?
With this automatic rocket
Gotta have it to pop it, unlock it, and take me up a hostage"- Snoop Dogg

"I got a glock that say 'Pac run the block...
My gauge gets me... PAID
As I sit and reminisce about the old days
Hugging on my AK... getting played, hey ...
I pop a clip and grip my nine tight
Now it's on everyday could be my last day
That's why I blast on they ass as I past let the glass spray "- 2Pac

(Source)

Many children are buying and listening to these CDs. Sure there are the 'Explicit Lyrics" warning label on them but that does not stop them from listening to them. Parents buy the CDs for them friends let them borrow them the possibilities are endless.

Glorified Violence in Movies

In movies, most notably in more modern ones where violence is more gratuitous, and realistic, violence has become glorified. A more disturbing fact is a study conducted in 2001.

"A 2001 report by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) reveals U.S. media corporations are "actively marketing violent entertainment to children and teens. The study showed that 80% of R-rated movies, 70% of restricted video games, and 100% of music with 'explicit content' warning labels were being marketed to kids under 17," reports Tallim." (Source)

A recent example is the remake of the classic "Assault on Precinent 13" which is clearly being marketed towards children mostly teens.

Children Affected By Violence

Like I said earlier children imitate violence and studies conducted since the 1950s have shown this.

"In 1956, researchers took to the laboratory to compare the behaviour of 24 children watching TV. Half watched a violent episode of the cartoon Woody Woodpecker, and the other 12 watched the non-violent cartoon The Little Red Hen. During play afterwards, the researchers observed that the children who watched the violent cartoon were much more likely to hit other children and break toys." (Source)

Now as we can see violence is a threat to our children. Children have imitated this violence since the first violent cartoon. Now I am not saying we ban every violent piece of content, I am promoting the idea of censoring it and making violent media content harder for children to get.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by JediMaster
The Itchy and Scratchy cartoon was used to show how children view violence on TV, as funny.

I think you've proved my point here. Kids watch these hyper-simulated cartoons and see one thing funny. They don't get a sudden urge to go to the nearest Home Depot, purchase a 100lb hammer and see if their friends will turn into a perfectly geometrical 'pancake'. Children can distinguish fantasy from reality.



Originally posted by JediMaster
Now the fact is Sim we need the censorship to protect our nation's children. Far too many parents do not care and its up to organizations like the FCC to help these children.

No. It's up to the FCC to promote their hidden agenda to pacify all of it's citizens. Supporting the FCC is only aiding in their cause. If too many parents do not care what their children watch on the Television then wouldn’t that be a sure sign that many parents in America are simply horrible and apathetic parents?.

I mean honestly, what parent in their right mind would much rather forfeit their right to be a parent and give their children up to government entities in order to be taught, trained, and processed?



Originally posted by JediMaster
Violence is not only found in television; it is all around in our media. Movies, music, the news, and television as I pointed out.

I think you forgot one source. Violence is also found in reality. Reality is inescapable. And we can't censor reality


Originally posted by JediMaster
Violence in Rap Lyrics

In many rap songs there is a large amount of profanity, violence and sex. One such example is

"I kill a devil right now. . . . I say kill whitey all nightey long. . . .I stabbed a #ing Jew with a steeple. . . . I would kill a cracker for nothing, just for the # of it. . . . Menace Clan kill a cracker; jack 'em even quicker. . . . catch that devil slipping; blow his #ing brains out"-Menace Clan, Da Hood

He may not be a mainstream rapper but here a few example from more well known artists.

"Nothing left to do, but buy some shells for my glock
Why? so I can rob every known dope spot
I got 19 dollars and 50 cents up in my pocket with what?
With this automatic rocket
Gotta have it to pop it, unlock it, and take me up a hostage"- Snoop Dogg

"I got a glock that say 'Pac run the block...
My gauge gets me... PAID
As I sit and reminisce about the old days
Hugging on my AK... getting played, hey ...
I pop a clip and grip my nine tight
Now it's on everyday could be my last day
That's why I blast on they ass as I past let the glass spray "- 2Pac

These artist (very important word here) are merely expressing their reality. These lyrics aren’t helpful tips in order to give yourself the gift of 5-20 in a state pen. That is the exact lifestyle that these artist are trying to prevent upon the youth and others.

Do you realize how Tupac Shakur was a revolutionary and poet before he was a rapper. He made these lyrics in order to give an insight to his life. His daily reality. The media wouldn’t allow it because of...you guessed it, Censorship. Why run 8'oclock feature on the local news about crimes that happened in the ghetto when you could easily cover the origin of the 'fruitcake' (true story).

Ignoring reality is the easiest way for people to forget the world they live in.

Tupac realized that his reality was being squelched. He exposed his world by the only means possible, lyrics.

The problem is not with censoring these artist. The real problem is fixing the root problem in society. Instead of putting another liquor store in the corner of a ghetto, why not put a child day-care? Or maybe a library?


Originally posted by JediMaster
Many children are buying and listening to these CDs. Sure there are the 'Explicit Lyrics" warning label on them but that does not stop them from listening to them. Parents buy the CDs for them friends let them borrow them the possibilities are endless.

Once again, the label reads. 'Parental Guidance Explicit Lyrics. Note the 'Parental Guidance'. That means that it is the sole responsibility of the parent to guide their kid into what they can own.


Originally posted by JediMaster
Glorified Violence in Movies

In movies, most notably in more modern ones where violence is more gratuitous, and realistic, violence has become glorified. A more disturbing fact is a study conducted in 2001.

"A 2001 report by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) reveals U.S. media corporations are "actively marketing violent entertainment to children and teens. The study showed that 80% of R-rated movies, 70% of restricted video games, and 100% of music with 'explicit content' warning labels were being marketed to kids under 17," reports Tallim." (Source)

A recent example is the remake of the classic "Assault on Precinent 13" which is clearly being marketed towards children mostly teens.

Once again. This is solely for entertainment as stated above. That is why there are laws in place at movie theatres preventing minors from seeing Rated R movies.


Originally posted by JediMaster
Children Affected By Violence

Like I said earlier children imitate violence and studies conducted since the 1950s have shown this.

"In 1956, researchers took to the laboratory to compare the behaviour of 24 children watching TV. Half watched a violent episode of the cartoon Woody Woodpecker, and the other 12 watched the non-violent cartoon The Little Red Hen. During play afterwards, the researchers observed that the children who watched the violent cartoon were much more likely to hit other children and break toys." (Source)

Do you realize that your study is nearly 50 years old?.

Also here is another quote from the same website that you forgot to include:



However, this line of research has attracted a great deal of controversy. Pullitzer Prize-winning author Richard Rhodes has attacked Eron’s work, arguing that his conclusions are based on an insignificant amount of data. Rhodes claims that Eron had information about the amount of TV viewed in 1960 for only 3 of the 24 men who committed violent crimes as adults years later. Rhodes concludes that Eron’s work is "poorly conceived, scientifically inadequate, biased and sloppy if not actually fraudulent research."
(Source)



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 03:09 PM
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First of Sim, violence may be found in reality but for the most part children are NOT watching it for entertainment. More children see violence on television than in reality.

According to the American Psychological Association a child will witness "8,000 murders and 100,000 acts of televised violence in his lifetime". Furthermore according to the Christian Science Monitor "More than 3,000 studies over the past 30 years offer evidence that violent programming has a measurable effect on young minds. Source

Sure you can say that "Well not all kids watch CSI or The Shield" but violence takes place in many children's cartoons as well.

"In 1992, WGN's "Cookie's Cartoon Club," Fox's "Tom and Jerry Kids," and Nickelodeon's "Looney Tunes" averaged 100, 88 and 80 acts of violence per hour, respectively" Which was taken from the above mentioned website.

The fact is that the children need to be protected, that we must step in and guide them since their own parents cannot. By censoring the violence in our media we would be able to see a generation that is less desensitized to violence and possibly have a more cultured one.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 07:18 AM
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I think the real problem lies in:
Why is it societies burden to raise a child?

In fact, censorship exist in order to protect children from society

Sorry for the short response but this is a very pertinent question



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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Because some parents do not raise their children right. The fact that some parents are letting their children get into sex, violence, and drugs is enouhg reason for the good people in society to step in and help raise the children.Not as in kicking the parent out of the home but in protecting them such as from sex and violence in the media.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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Since this is my last post before my closing statement, I must mention a vital point regarding censorship that hasn’t been mentioned by my opponent:

Censorship of language. This cannot and must not be allowed in our society

The evolution of our species has been dependent on the development of language. Besides the notable physical traits of the homo-sapien (opposable thumb, ability to fully operate on two legs) what distinguishes us from our primate cousins?

Culture you say? Logical response, but what exactly is culture? Isn’t it but the mere ability to transmit stories from person to person? How are these stories retained? This culture is stored by symbols, specifically language. This is the most efficient way to preserve, spread, and create culture and ideas. Language is what distinguishes us from the animal kingdom. Not mating calls or warning screams but a true systematic form of communication. Humans no longer physically evolve, we are passed that. Now it is the era of mental evolution, the manifestation of new ideas and new culture. This is what conjoins humanity.

Our world is made up of language. Take a moment and look around. Glance at your monitor, take a look at your keyboard, notice that chair you’re sitting on? All these objects are made possible with language. An idea is conveyed by language, the language manifest itself into a visual representation itself. And eventually, the idea takes on a tangible form. This is the mechanics of our world (at least since the evolution of language by the homo-sapien).

Therefore language should not be censored. It is our unique capability that nature embedded in our essence. Language is who we are. Regardless of whether the word is ‘hate’ or ‘f_ck’, these words evoke emotion. This emotion thus mutates into a unique ideology, a unique thought, and the possibility of a unique object in our world.

Sometimes the only way to evoke the correct idea is to use taboo ‘curse words’.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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Closing Statement

Beore I end this I would like to thank Sim for a wonderful debate and may the force be with you.

The fact that children are harmed by these violent images are enoigh to justify censorship.

As I have pointed out we can see the following which I qouted in my opening statement.

"1. Become "immune" to the horror of violence
2. Gradually accept violence as a way to solve problems
3. Imitate the violence they observe on television; and
4. Identify with certain characters, victims and/or victimizers"

Furthermore we see that the average child "8,000 murders and 100,000 acts of televised violence in his lifetime".

The simple fact that these violent images are damaing to the children and thi has been proven in many studies. Children have been imitating these acts, children have killed other children because of the violence in the media.

If we as a soceity has the violence in our media cut down/censored we will see a new generation, a generation of children not immune to violence and a generation who may be more kind.

Thefore we can see the effects of violence on our nations children and why we must censor it, thank you.

Good luck Sim.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 11:56 AM
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The debate of censorship surpasses the mere restriction of what your children view on their Saturday morning cartoons or what they listen to at their school dance.

The essence of censorship has to do with what we as citizens are allowed to know. Limitation of knowledge is one of the most efficient tools of control. The mainstream media is this tool. Let me ask you, if we didn’t have nightly news would most of America even know that there is a war going on in Iraq? Think about it.

The Media is the 4th branch of the government. It is our censorship. We must elevate above this form of manipulation. Remove it from our society and create a world in which our actions, beliefs, and way of life aren’t manipulated by an omni-devious form of control.

I just wanted to end this great debate (Thank you Jedimaster and MacKiller) with a quote from a man who tackles the issue of censorship on a daily basis. Last year I had the opportunity to meet with Immortal Technique and chat with him about censorship in our media. Here is excerpt from his piece 'The 4th branch'.

Censored of course, irony at its best.




The fourth branch of the government AKA the media
Seems to now have a retirement plan for ex-military officials
As if their opinion was at all unbiased
A machine shouldn't speak for men
So shut the **** up you mindless drone!
And you know it's serious
When these same media outfits are spending millions of dollars on a PR campaign
To try to convince you they're fair and balanced
When they're some of the most ignorant, and racist people
Giving that type of mentality a safe haven
We act like we share in the spoils of war that they do
We die in wars, we don't get the contracts to make money off 'em afterwards!
We don't get weapons contracts, *****!
We don't get cheap labor for our companies, *****!
We are cheap labor, *****!
Turn off the news and read, *****!
Read... read... read...

Artist: Immortal Technique
Album: Revolutionary Volume 2
Song: The 4th Branch




posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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Off to the judges we go...!



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Great debates guys! Here are the results...

JediMaster: 6
Simulacra: 3

JediMaster advances to the next round.

Here are some comments left by the judges:

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Wow....hats off to both these people, this was one well fought debate.

I beleive in the end, Simulacra just inched out on top as the winner.

Simulacra had some solid points which he was able to back up with some basic logic.
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JediMaster.

He presented his thoughts in a strong comprehensive manner and backed them up with facts more than opinion.
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JediMaster placed proper research and structure, along with facts and personal opinion, into written context that leads to the dominant position in this debate. Appreciation to both contestants is extended for their participation in this debate.



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