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Round 1. Jamuhn v.s. dreamlandmafia: Athletic Scholarships

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posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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The topic for this debate is "School athletic scholarships bring worthy students to school and should be continued."

dreamlandmafia will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Jamuhn will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 11 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (6) is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.




posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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Just like everybody else, I’d like to thank Kano…errrr…Mackiller for setting up this debate, and Jamuhn for debating it with me.

Do athletic scholarships bring “worthy” students to a school? I believe they do.

Colleges and universities that offer NCAA Athletic Scholarships require that you meet 4 strict requirements to be eligible:

    (1)
  • That you graduate from High School
  • Complete 14 of the Core High School Courses
  • Have a minimum GPA of 2.0 or a C average.
  • Achieve an SAT or ACT score that matches your GPA. So a GPA of 2.0 would require an SAT score of 1010.


To keep the scholarship athletes must maintain a C average, and keep their behaviour straight. Getting into fights on campus, failing a course, or falling behind your set GPA can get your replaced from the team, and cancel your scholarship.

These standards are basically the same as any other scholarship, you go below the set standards and your either have time to get it back up, or you lose your scholarship. It’s as simple as that.

If athletic scholarships are not continued then how would colleges compete in tournaments or in regular games? Many high school athletes may be unable to afford college tuition, and need some help to get in and play for their school. Without athletic scholarships there wouldn’t be many athletes and there wouldn’t be many sports teams since nobody would be able to play on them. Without sports school spirit will drop.

If the definition of worthy for this debate means academically, then yes I would say that athletic scholarships bring students with good academic skills and attitude. The scholarship requires them to meet standards, just like any other student.

If the definition of worthy for this debate means athletically, then yes I would also say that athletic scholarships bring students great at sports. The scholarship people, and scouts, go out and see the athletes play, and contact past coaches. They make sure they are top notch players before they are accepted.

So yes, Athletic Scholarships do bring “worthy” students, in both senses, to a school. Both academically, and athletically.

*announcer* Over to your Jamuhn.


(1) www.collegedata.com...



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:57 PM
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Thank you to MacKiller, DreamLandMafia, Judges, and ATS readers. I hope this will be an educational experience.

To begin answering the question of "Do scholastic athletic scholarships bring worthy students to school and should they be continued?" we must first answer key terms within this two-part question. On a side note, the last part "..should they be continued?" is answerable in conjunction with the first question.

First, let us define a key term, "worthy students." As we see, athletes can only be evaluated in terms of their academic merits and whether their achievements are suitable for any given school.

Let's take Duke University, for example, and examine the academic achievement of the average freshman student. The middle 50% of first-year students had SAT scores ranging from 1330-1520 (1) as opposed to the minimum of 1010 for NCAA specifics. As well, 76-100% of students had a high school GPA of 3.0 or higher as opposed to the minimum of 2.0 set by the NCAA. As well, what DreamLandMafia forgot to take into account, was that this 2.0 only applies to core courses and not to the overall GPA for athletes.

As we can see just from this one university, there are many a student that are overlooked by universities, each year, in exchange for an athlete and quite frequently, an athletic scholarship. Quite literally, what athletic scholarship recipients lack in the classroom, they make up for in physical ability.

But, do not confuse this as a generality to apply to all student-athletes. There are many that would have been accepted into a university regardless, but for the majority, they are accepted based on physical ability.

Now, let's take a look at some of the more prestigious academic institutions, namely the Ivy League Schools.

From IvyLeagueSports.com:

1945 The first "Ivy Group Agreement" is signed, applying only to football. It affirms the observance of common practices in academic standards and eligibility requirements and the administration of need-based financial aid, with no athletic scholarships.
(2)

The Ivy League schools continue rank among the top schools in the United States, according to USNews. This year, the top four schools are all Ivy League schools.(3) None of these schools feel athletic scholarships should be given to unworthy students. Yet, these schools still actively participate in sports.

On terms of shear athletic ability, recipients of athletic scholarships are worthy. But on the basis of their academic achievements, they are, in general, not worthy of such scholarships.

References:
1) Duke University's Academic Averages
2) Ivy League Sports History
3) College Rankings 2005



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 06:38 PM
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I currently have a massive headache, so this isnt as long as I would have liked it to be, but I like to get stuff in on TIME!


Of the Top 10 College Basketball teams of 2004-2005, 5 of the Universities are in the top 50 colleges, according to USNews, and About.com (1), with all but 2 being in the top 100. The exceptions being Memphis and Arizona.


  1. North Carolina (29)
  2. Kansas (95)
  3. Wake Forest (27)
  4. Memphis
  5. Illinois (39)
  6. Connecticut (66)
  7. Arizona (101)
  8. Georgia Tech (41)
  9. Duke (5)
  10. Notre Dame (18)


    Number 1 on this list, University of North Carolina, had a median GPA of 3.6, with the 25th-75th Percentile of its students getting above 3.39 to 3.79, respectively, in the entering class of 2002. (2)

    The University of Kansas has an average GPA of 3.5, Wake Forest with 3.4, Memphis with 3.5, Illinois with 3.4, Connecticut with 3.5, Arizona with 3.5, Duke with 3.6, Notre Dame with 3.5, and Georgia Tech with an average GPA of 3.8. (3)

    Emeka Okafor, University of Connecticut, has a GPA of 3.76 and carries a degree in finances. He is also a star basketball player. If this is not a worthy student, I don’t know what is. (4)

    (1) Top 10 Basketball Top 10 Lists
    (2) www.bcgsearch.com...
    (3) www.eckerd.edu...
    (4) sportsillustrated.cnn.com...



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 11:41 PM
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Sorry to hear you have a headache, hopefully it will be gone by your next response.


So, you were able to provide one scholar-athlete among the entire pool of athletic scholarship recipients. I'm sorry dreamland, but I don't think that will be enough. Even the context of your example gives the correct impression that Okafor is an exception and not the norm among athletic scholarship recipients.

Let's take Rutgers as another example of the disparity of athletic scholarships. 68% of athletic scholarship recipients actually graduate.(1) This number doesn't even factor in the actual academic conditions of the individual students. There is a multitude of financial aid going to athletes who transfer, drop-out, or go to professional sports early.

Athletic scholarships are given to the most talented athletes. As the name itself implies, these are "scholar"-ships, and not "athletic"-ships. Scholarships should be given on the basis of academic achievement rather than paying for students that may or may not succeed at the school.

Let's stop giving this money to part-time students and full-time athletes and give it instead to the full-time students who come to the college/school seeking academic opportunity.

1. Rutgers



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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Late again Jamuhn.

Without receiving that scholarship to the University of Connecticut, Okafor may not have been able to get in, and afford to go. If he wasn’t able to afford to go, he wouldn’t be able to have gotten his degree in Finances or help his college become the 6th best team in the Division.

As for Rutgers University (where my Brother goes), they only give 2.7 Million Dollars a year for Athletic Scholarships.(1) Which pales in comparison to the approximately 50 Million Dollars given in Financial Aid Total.(2) Of that 2.7 Million, 1.7 Million of it has to be split up between 27 Olympic Sports Teams that compete on the Varsity level, which is 670 students. The remaining 1 Million dollars is spent on football and men's and women's basketball

The percentage of the total Financial Aid that is given to Academic Students is approximately 95%, with the percentage of the total Financial Aid that is given to Student Athletes is about 5%.

(1) Concept to Change Athletics Affiliation Flawed
(2) Daily Targum - State Increases Financial Aid



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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Jamuhn forfeits his turn, dreamlandmafia, please continue.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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Schools are giving more and more Financial Aid every year to students, as can be seen in my reference in my last response. A small portion is going to Student Athletes that may not be able to afford to get into the college or university.

Too many colleges, sports are a big deal, and they want to stay on top. With the athletes playing in tournaments and being sponsored by big name companies, they can easily pay off their tuition that is given to them basically free, just by playing a few games of basketball, baseball, football, or whatever sport they are there to play for.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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There are a lot more students than athletes, which is why there is such a great difference in the amount of scholarships given at most schools obviously. Plus, any athlete can be given a scholarship on the basis of their being a "scholar". Okafor, the "model student-athlete," could have received a scholarship based on scholar. That is the point of this debate isn't it, for you to say why athletes should be given scholarships based on their physical talents rather than their actual student affairs? My position is that athletes, to be given a scholarship, must meet the same criteria given to regular students who have scholarships.

I mean, if we are just going to pay people to play for a college, why make them students at all? How about we just find the best players in the country and pay them to play under the college colors? We can make college basketball a form of amateur league play. After all, that is what it is reduced to when you start paying people who do not represent the academic merits of the school.

Te are talking about schools here, a place of education, not a playground. If any student wants a free ride, they must show the reasons why based on their intellectual merit.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Id like to thank Jamuhn for a great debate, albeit long. He fought his predetermined case really well, if I were judge Id say better than me, much. I find it especially hard to debate for a topic where you feel the opposite on.

Without athletes at a school, there would not be very much school spirit. No games for the students to rally themselves and show support for their school and team.

What are schools without sports? Boring buildings where you go and get your head stuffed full of facts. The athletes get to come and play for that school, get a free tuition, room and board, and maybe pay it off by playing in games and gaining sponsorships. If a school wants to allow student athletes to get scholarships, they should, a school shouldnt just be about education, but also about social interaction and being with your peers.

I know its not much of a closing statement, but im totally out of ideas.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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Thank you to you too Dreamlandmafia.

Schools are primarily a place of learning, preparing its students for the real world. Secondarily, the school is a place for growing, as a person. There are many facets of this second concept, athletics being one of them. I'd like to stress again, that noone is saying take away athletics. Scholarships, as they imply, should be given solely on the basis of "scholarly" pursuits. There is nothing preventing a basketball player from having a scholarship if he is a good student.

But, when we start passing up bright students, not only in admission, but in scholarship aid, in exchange for a good athlete, we are foregoing the primary function of the school for some other motive.

A consequence of this trend of granting athletes "scholar"-ships is that many highschool athletes are looking to pursue their athleticism rather than their academics, believing that they will have school paid for them if they become better as an athlete and, yet, remain mediocre as a student. We need to encourage students, especially the younger ones, the importance of academics now. Only a small fragment of athletes end up making a career out of it anyway. While athletics is a good outlet, their academic pursuits is what will count in the long run.

In the sense of this primary function of the schools, namely scholarly pursuits, athletic scholarships do not bring worthy students to the school on its own. What they bring are good athletes, but, generally, not good students. If a school is to preserve the academic spirit upon which it was founded, we need to reverse this trend and start granting students who are worthy, academically, these scholarships.



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Very good debate guys...

Off the the judges we go!



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 07:44 PM
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Judges have spoken. (After being kicked out of bed in the middle of the night by frantic u2u's from me
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The winner of this debate is Jamuhn by a margin of 5-3. Well done to Jamuhn and best of luck dreamlandmafia in future tournaments.




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