Were the Jews Expecting the Son of God?

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII


'Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).

What's really being done is comparing the coming Messiah, obviously not Jesus if you want to pull it out as authoritative you got to go all the way and rule out any possibility of Jesus being Messiah to take the position that the Talmud has any weight as an argument about the Messiah as it is all after Jesus when penned and declared sacred.

I was using this as a refutation to the idea of Suffering Servant=Israel. Not as a validation of Jesus as Messiah.




The Zohar:

Thats false, Origen reports this view and the Zohar was written in Medieval times WAY after Origen. Nice try.

But the Talmud precedes Origen.

So the FACT that Origen writes of the tradition being Israel as suffering servant isn't hindered by the Talmud preceding it but the obvious source of the belief.

Talmud was compiled over centuries probably not written down until the 3rd or 4th century, and again, Origen cites the tradition refuting your claim that it wasn't one and you re enforce it by saying it preceded Origen thinking that it makes the opposite claim, but the Talmud doesn't connect suffering servant and Messiah only COMPARES the 2 ruling out the possibility of it being the same thing, Israel is the suffering servant and the Messiah hasn't come yet.

When was Jesus cut off from the land of the living? That'd make him dead, not reigning in Heaven.

When he was murdered, and again when he ascended to heaven. Which is out of the realm of the living.

Myth and superstition doesn't make history and doesn't make it reality, so b if he was murdered he wasn't the real Messiah and a failure really. Which IS the case as Rome ascended in reality as the Jewish situation worsened, no Messiah, no Kingdom of the Messiah. Just a very corrupt history and a very corrupt church/tradition not based on anything historical and probably a total myth.

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII


'Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).

What's really being done is comparing the coming Messiah, obviously not Jesus if you want to pull it out as authoritative you got to go all the way and rule out any possibility of Jesus being Messiah to take the position that the Talmud has any weight as an argument about the Messiah as it is all after Jesus when penned and declared sacred.

I was using this as a refutation to the idea of Suffering Servant=Israel. Not as a validation of Jesus as Messiah.




The Zohar:

Thats false, Origen reports this view and the Zohar was written in Medieval times WAY after Origen. Nice try.

But the Talmud precedes Origen.

So the FACT that Origen writes of the tradition being Israel as suffering servant isn't hindered by the Talmud preceding it but the obvious source of the belief.

Talmud was compiled over centuries probably not written down until the 3rd or 4th century, and again, Origen cites the tradition refuting your claim that it wasn't one and you re enforce it by saying it preceded Origen thinking that it makes the opposite claim, but the Talmud doesn't connect suffering servant and Messiah only COMPARES the 2 ruling out the possibility of it being the same thing, Israel is the suffering servant and the Messiah hasn't come yet.

When was Jesus cut off from the land of the living? That'd make him dead, not reigning in Heaven.

When he was murdered, and again when he ascended to heaven. Which is out of the realm of the living.

Myth and superstition doesn't make history and doesn't make it reality, so b if he was murdered he wasn't the real Messiah and a failure really. Which IS the case as Rome ascended in reality as the Jewish situation worsened, no Messiah, no Kingdom of the Messiah. Just a very corrupt history and a very corrupt church/tradition not based on anything historical and probably a total myth.

Was the Torah not compiled until the 4th century. Knew the bible was, but...