College is a scam! DON"T MISS

a reply to: Darkmadness


Upward mobility is severely limited and "loyalty" isn't a desirable trait anymore

Fixed that for you.



FOX.

a reply to: wdkirk

You have to realize that the majority of the country does not have opportunities such as these available to them right?

Is this common in your area and if you don't mind sharing a location for us so we can research the economic dynamic of opportunity and skills gap that everyone keeps talking about but no one can seem to find.

a reply to: Darkmadness

He hits the nail on the head pretty well - I believe that in some fields, you do need the additional training and experience (I doubt you'd want your surgeon to be someone that looked up how to do your surgery on youtube).

Take my case for example - I grew up around computers, and knew from 6th grade onwards I wanted to do something with computers. When I graduated, I immediately enrolled for a degree program, because in school, you are always taught that people tend to favor a degree over someone else that doesn't have one (old reasoning from my parent's age).

One of the cool things about IT is you have the potential to gain experience without taking a single college class. When I got my current job...they asked me about my degree, and I told them quite frankly, I don't rely on the degree to carry me: What I relied on was using the skills I've learned outside of the classroom and in other jobs I had prior.

I feel that college shouldn't push the BS degrees in "insert your area of study here". And, I'd tell any future high school'rs that are reading my reply this: If you are passionate about something, then chances are, there is a job out there for it that won't require a degree to get. If you want to be a violinist, you don't need a doctorate in music to be one; you need the experience. Focus on getting experience, as that is worth almost as much (if not more) than a degree.

On the side: Yes, while I love the IT industry and am passionate about what I do...An ever-growing part of me wants to have more experience playing instruments so that I can get payed to play. My end goal is something like the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. I hate staring at a computer screen all day

-fossilera

originally posted by: WeRpeons
I think the idea that if you want a good paying job you need a college degree is B.S.. Learning a technical skill at a trade school gives you hands on experience, something businesses want and colleges fall short. The cost of a college education doesn't always pay-off when you compare the type of salary a college graduate can expect to receive. There are many dead-end degrees. Too many students don't realize it until they graduate and reality sits-in.

I agree fully. There are a lot of degrees I just don't believe (apparently now you can get a degree in Social Justice Warrior), others will never earn you a great living, but might be just what you want in life. I have had instructors in history, polisci, literature and languages who will probably barely squeak by in later life because it didn't bring in a wad of money, but man did I learn from them.

I think if you're going to be into archaeology, history or English Lit, you'd better be a remittance kid. But if you don't care that it's never going to bring you in a good income, if it resonates with you, go for it. OTOH, I think they don't tell kids going into some fields that they'll never have a good job unless they're in the top 0.01% of the pack. Like communications degrees.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
I disagree with the notion that I can't teach myself as effectively as a professor who I've never met before.

There are some people who can teach themselves new subjects. But a lot of people have to have someone do it with them, and engineering pre reqs are not the sorts of things most people can do online.

originally posted by: Substracto
Three things in college, you get in debt, you get brainwashed, and most of the knowledge you acquire gives you no professional experience when it comes to practical matters..

I disagree on all three points. If you're a good student, you will end up with enough scholarship offers that you don't have to worry a lot. Myself, I had scholarships I turned down to go into the service (perhaps a mistake, hard to say), but after I ETSd, I worked during school at maybe three or four odd jobs and worked 'summers' at a really odd job. But the work was there, you just had to buckle down and bust your ass and study as you could.

So, do you HAVE to end up in debt, I used my VA powers to do school to some extent, but wasn't in debt when I graduated.

Brainwashed, also a no. I suspect this is more likely to happen in humanities degrees, and if you're a kid, you are a lot more susceptible. As a 'non-trad', I was either the bane or delight of my instructors, depending on how hard they pushed their viewpoints and whether we agreed. But kids tend to see instructors as either pseudo-parents or infallible.

So, I give you partial agreement, but it depends on the student. Personally, I think every kid ought to do a year or two before college either in the service or in some sort of civil service (Peace Corps, for example) to get them out of their comfort zone and away from the culture they were raised in, to provide them with some sort of contrast and a bit of time to grow up.

As for college giving you no experience, it gives you a foundation. It's not intended to give you experience. However, if you're trying to do science and you have no grasp of math, you won't get far. Skipping college is fine if you want to be a welder.

a reply to: Bedlam

I still disagree with your assumption that we can't teach ourselves.

Also I still see no correlation between what motivates someone.

I would take a motivated candidate over a non motivated candidate and make sure they get what they need in order to succeed.

The potential of someone is more important than their education level.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
The potential of someone is more important than their education level.

A motivated tech with less than college algebra is a bad bet for a EE.

a reply to: Bedlam

So the only way possible for him to learn college algebra is by paying a university to have a teacher teach it to him?

Nah sorry, you over value your education and you seem perfectly happy with the system because it's served you well so you see no reason to change it.

However as you may have noticed many many others are not simulating your current experience which is why college debt is being talked about as a crisis and will have generations of influence on the earning power of the middle class.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Bedlam

So the only way possible for him to learn college algebra is by paying a university to have a teacher teach it to you?

Some subjects, math is one, are pretty damned tough to just do.

COULD you do it, sure. WILL you do it, no. And that in spades with calculus x 4 semesters, finite algebra, diff equations I and II, numeric methods, fields I, II, III, etc. And if you've never had hard science and math classes at that level, I submit you do not know how hard it can be to learn them. I've done a pile of online stuff, but mostly humanities. It doesn't compare with trying to learn gradients and curl, tensors, convolution and the like.

originally posted by: Darkmadness

originally posted by: rickymouse
The guy is right about the whole thing. Some jobs require an education but most don't. What happened to going to work at a job and working your way up the ladder, getting paid while you learned. Then you apply for a better job and get paid more as you gain experience. After four years you are getting a good wage and benefits. Beats going into debt and then going to work at subway.

Companies don't promote from within anymore professionals are highered laterally from company to company.

Upward mobility is severely limited and talent isn't a desirable trait anymore.

BS talent isn't desired. If you're talented work for yourself. That's the upwards mobility which is still left. Fail until you succeed is what I keep aiming for.

a reply to: Bedlam

WILL you do it, no.

Seems like a pretty ridiculous assumption.

May I remind you that all of these things were not originally taught they were discovered by students of the craft.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
BS talent isn't desired. If you're talented work for yourself. That's the upwards mobility which is still left. Fail until you succeed is what I keep aiming for.

You pretty much HAVE to work for yourself if you're in a tech field. Either that, or get moved out at 40.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
May I remind you that all of these things were not originally taught they were discovered by students of the craft.

Only a few people have 'discovered' calculus, other than in a classroom.

I certainly don't want to wait around for you as an employee to 'discover' higher math and fields.

a reply to: Bedlam

Pickup a how to calculus book and study it until you understand it.

Thats what you do in college anyway.

I hope your not projecting your inability to educate yourself onto others are you?

Many programmers and coders, talented ones are self taught.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
a reply to: Bedlam

Pickup a how to calculus book and study it until you understand it.

Thats what you do in college anyway.

I hope your not projecting you inability to educate yourselves onto others are you?

Many programmers and coders, talented ones are self taught.

Coding ain't higher math.

I could code in junior high, before it was cool, back when loading something by switches was a possibility if you didn't have the monitor program.

But higher math, fields, physics and the like aren't that easy to pick up from a book by yourself in the woods somewhere.

I hope you can substantiate that YOU know these fields and taught yourself...because I'm betting your toughest course might have been general physics 101.

Again, CAN someone do this, maybe. Will they do it, no. Or you'd be able to point out the hundreds of people who taught themselves to be EEs from fields and networks books.

Let's also postulate as an employer what qualities I view as valuable and why.

I value someone self motivated because that's an important trait in a qualified candidate. I need people who can overcome challenges on their own using the problem solving skills they obtained learning their field.

I value someone who has the willpower to overcome challenges.

These qualities can easily be found in a self taught motivated and well educated person but as far as college graduates... I would say that's more like a needle in a haystack. Random guessing.

a reply to: Darkmadness

What about when they view you as a challenge to be overcome?

a reply to: Bedlam

But higher math, fields, physics and the like aren't that easy to pick up from a book by yourself in the woods somewhere.

I don't think your willing to give our ability to tap into a higher form of knowledge a proper chance.

You may not be able to accomplish this personally but many of US can, do and have.

originally posted by: Darkmadness
Let's also postulate as an employer what qualities I view as valuable and why.

Let me guess...a large amount of the things you do are basic relational databases and web work.

THAT is the sort of thing a tech can do. Webpage work is the lowest of the low.