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Rebellion as a Necessary Means Towards Independence; or, Why Eve Had to Eat.

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posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 02:58 PM
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The notion of free-will has been heavily on my mind as of late. Some of you might have seen a previous post of mine on Einstein's concept of the divine, and here I'll submit a quote of his that has had me pondering the nature of life as it is, vs. how it could have been.

"The highest satisfaction of a scientific person is to come to the realization that God Himself could not have arranged these connections in any other way than that which does exist, any more than it would have been in His power to make four a prime number." -Albert Einstein

This notion (to which I agree) has allowed me to come to the conclusion that The Fall, as unpleasant as it might be for those of us still in its midst, was an imperative part of human development, and an important first step in the pursuit of perfection.

So here I'll submit the idea that rebellion is the only true way to achieve independence, and to establish one's self apart from the laws that govern us.

When I am able to step outside my duties as a parent, I can see my son's occasional refusal to follow "orders" as his attempt at establishing his self, apart from the mandatory and tyrannical parental law


Here's an excellent quote that hits certain key points of creating an individual space for ourselves-- a Self of our very own.

"We may remember how, in childhood, adults were able at first to look right through us, and into us, and what an accomplishment it was when we, in fear and trembling, could tell our first lie, and make, for ourselves, the discovery that we are irredeemably alone in certain respects, and know that within the territory of ourselves, there can only be our own footprints." -R.D. Laing, The Divided Self

Herman Melville saw obeyance as a form of slavery, as he so eloquently posits in his chapter The Lee Shore from the great Moby Dick.

"But as in landlessness alone resides the highest truth, shoreless, indefinite as God--so better it is to perish in that howling infinite, than be ingloriously dashed upon the lee, even if that were safety! For worm-like, then, oh! who would craven crawl to land! Terrors of the terrible! is all this agony so vain?"

As I wrote before, rebellion is an imperative first step in the pursuit of perfection, and is not a sin in itself but rather the only way to establish one's self outside of the law.

Once independence is achieved, the act of submitting, of humbling one's self by changing one's focus from a self-centered to a God-centered universe, is all the more beautiful and righteous.

Life as we know it is a process, an alchemy of the soul if you will.

Peace.

edit on 9-9-2016 by zosimov because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 04:12 PM
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Understanding boundaries and their true service can go only through their annihilation. It's a dual process, only a limited environment can rise a desire for freedom.

a reply to: zosimov



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 05:39 PM
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I agree with you. I also believe that Judas's betrayal was necessary and I read somewhere that Jesus knew it was going to be Judas and more or less had to convince him to do it. It might have just been an opinion piece but without the betrayal, how long would Christianity lasted?

Might not be on topic but your thread title instantly made me think of that.



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 06:04 PM
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I love this thread. Very thought provoking.

So did God, being all knowing, also know that Eve would partake?

As rebel on the verge of another rebellion, I sympathize.



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 06:33 PM
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There have always been serpent worshippers in the world. Even the ancient Israelites had the bronze serpent of Moses and in angelology the Seraphs and Ophanim are both serpents with wings. the names come from Ophis and Serapis, a greek name for a Serpent god (or Orphis, Ophiuchus) and an Egyptian name of a Serpent named after Osiris-Apis.

The Serpent in the garden of Eden was Lilith the rebellions first wife of Adam turned powerful demoness and the Serpent of Eden, cursed though she was she was to blame for infant death and nocturnal emissions. She is the wife of Samael, the angel of death sometimes considered to be Satan, not by me though.

So the rebellious woman Lilith goes on to seduce to rebellion Eve, who recieves the (eventual) death penalty while Lilith's fate is TBD, though I can't see her getting off lightly.

I admire Lilith actually, she demanded equality and was severely punished for it, though it was knowledge she gave to Eve who gave to Adam, a metaphor for sex.

It was also knowledge of good and evil and a hightened awareness of who we were. It seems that the God of Eden was kind of a ckfu up not being able to plan things or see the outcome ahead of time, basically setting up Adam and Eve for failure knowing that the Serpent was lurking, having created the Serpent even.

So thanks Lilith, we owe you one!!!



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: kosmicjack
So did God, being all knowing, also know that Eve would partake?


Thank you! And I love all the responses so far.. more food for thought! Gratitude to all.

Your question got right to the crux of the matter! I wrote this thread in defense of our first mother, yes, but more so in awe of our Almighty Father, who was wise enough to understand that perfection cannot be created, but rather achieved, and who saw that achievement would be a result of trial and (much) error.

I can see that giving free will to intelligent beings would result in both great pain and joy to the creator. But I, for one, am so grateful for the life I was given.

Thanks to all for contributing, hope to hear more!



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 06:55 PM
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originally posted by: LucianusXVII

It was also knowledge of good and evil and a hightened awareness of who we were. It seems that the God of Eden was kind of a ckfu up not being able to plan things or see the outcome ahead of time, basically setting up Adam and Eve for failure knowing that the Serpent was lurking, having created the Serpent even.


Here is where I'll respectfully disagree with you and offer the alternative idea that God did indeed know that Adam and Eve would disobey, and saw the process as an imperative step by which we could achieve freedom, of our own will.

Had he created beings who could not (and therefore would not) fail, he would not have created a man, but rather a pre-programmed robot of sorts. A slave to good. With truly free will comes of course the potential for the greatest good and the greatest evil, which would inevitably (and very early on, as we saw it) come to pass.

He was willing to wait the long haul, and in the meantime to bestow us with as many blessings as we offer ourselves curses, in order to allow us the choice to align ourselves with Him (and the forces of good). Or not.

At least that is how I have come to see things.. and this knowledge has brought me tremendous peace.



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

It was also knowledge of good and evil and a hightened awareness of who we were. It seems that the God of Eden was kind of a ckfu up not being able to plan things or see the outcome ahead of time, basically setting up Adam and Eve for failure knowing that the Serpent was lurking, having created the Serpent even.


Here is where I'll respectfully disagree with you and offer the alternative idea that God did indeed know that Adam and Eve would disobey,


Then punishing them with death and exile is too harsh of a punishment.



and saw the process as an imperative step by which we could achieve freedom, of our own will.

Had he created beings who could not (and therefore would not) fail, he would not have created a man, but rather a pre-programmed robot of sorts. A slave to good.


Why couldn't he make non evil humans who lived forever and if the population gets too high make the planet bigger or move people to other realms?

Why wouldn't he make a world without suffering, perfect in all ways? Nature obeys God's laws without fail, it is our intelligence that leads to evil and knowledge of, as well as the need for things we don't have or don't need and have too much of.

Why can't God create a perfect earth?



With truly free will comes of course the potential for the greatest good and the greatest evil, which would inevitably (and very early on, as we saw it) come to pass.

He was willing to wait the long haul, and in the meantime to bestow us with as many blessings as we offer ourselves curses, in order to allow us the choice to align ourselves with Him (and the forces of good). Or not.

At least that is how I have come to see things.. and this knowledge has brought me tremendous peace.


I am not complaining. I just wonder, why?

I have Faith, God has been good to me, the Holy Spirit has been good to me, so I have no beef with God.

I am just not afraid to question that which I think I should, I don't think an absentee God who allows evil prevalence on a massive scale would blame me for questioning, why?



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

It was also knowledge of good and evil and a hightened awareness of who we were. It seems that the God of Eden was kind of a ckfu up not being able to plan things or see the outcome ahead of time, basically setting up Adam and Eve for failure knowing that the Serpent was lurking, having created the Serpent even.


Here is where I'll respectfully disagree with you and offer the alternative idea that God did indeed know that Adam and Eve would disobey,


Then punishing them with death and exile is too harsh of a punishment.



and saw the process as an imperative step by which we could achieve freedom, of our own will.

Had he created beings who could not (and therefore would not) fail, he would not have created a man, but rather a pre-programmed robot of sorts. A slave to good.


Why couldn't he make non evil humans who lived forever and if the population gets too high make the planet bigger or move people to other realms?

Why wouldn't he make a world without suffering, perfect in all ways? Nature obeys God's laws without fail, it is our intelligence that leads to evil and knowledge of, as well as the need for things we don't have or don't need and have too much of.

Why can't God create a perfect earth?



With truly free will comes of course the potential for the greatest good and the greatest evil, which would inevitably (and very early on, as we saw it) come to pass.

He was willing to wait the long haul, and in the meantime to bestow us with as many blessings as we offer ourselves curses, in order to allow us the choice to align ourselves with Him (and the forces of good). Or not.

At least that is how I have come to see things.. and this knowledge has brought me tremendous peace.


I am not complaining. I just wonder, why?

I have Faith, God has been good to me, the Holy Spirit has been good to me, so I have no beef with God.

I am just not afraid to question that which I think I should, I don't think an absentee God who allows evil prevalence on a massive scale would blame me for questioning, why?



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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Ops! Sorry.
edit on 9-9-2016 by LucianusXVII because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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I know one thing, whoever is in charge of earth, whether it's God or he has delegated the task, is doing a pretty ishty job.

Some say it's the devil, that there is an Antichrist just waiting to incarnate and usher in Armageddon, I don't buy that, it is not even what Revelation or any other part of the Bible, except metaphorically that Satan is in charge but I don't take that literally because if God put the most evil being in the Universe in charge of all earth he would destroy it by manipulating someone to blow it up and he would defeat God, if they were fighting, they aren't.

No, I think the only rational explanation for life in the mortal realm is a test to see what you are made of. Some people are at harmony with the Universe and are actually happy, harm no one and always improving as a person. Others just lie around and do nothing constantly complaining about life and wonder why they are miserable. Others suffer unspeakable injustices and others commit them.

How would an intelligent God sort out all these people?

I don't think it is going to all boil down to whether or not you believe in Jesus in the manner the churches preach, that sounds like a pipe dream. I don't believe anyone ever died for my sins. Or was crucified, entombed and ressurected to show a few people (and not 99% of the world) and then ascend to Heaven and be known henceforth as God the Son. It's so unbelievably unreasonable to believe actually happened, but as a tale of righteousness and betrayal and the lessons that Jesus taught are very good even if they aren't actually his words or all his words. Whoever wrote them had knowledge of several religions including the third eye and 7 Chakras of Hinduism.
edit on 9-9-2016 by LucianusXVII because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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If God was able to harden Pharaoh's heart when he was submitting to his will and consistently drive him to pursue the Hebrews until death it's safe to say he is capable of and at times willing to interfere with free will, although that's just a story.

Seriously, if God were to induce a state of euphoric do good ambitions in everyone so that we were always blissfully aware of the greatness of everlasting life and blessed everyone in such a way that nobody ever had the slightest urge to do evil the world be perfect, no death, no hunger, no disease, and permanent blissful intoxication it would work, if plants and medicine can induce feelings of bliss I think God can and in a way that it has no downside.
edit on 9-9-2016 by LucianusXVII because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

It was also knowledge of good and evil and a hightened awareness of who we were. It seems that the God of Eden was kind of a ckfu up not being able to plan things or see the outcome ahead of time, basically setting up Adam and Eve for failure knowing that the Serpent was lurking, having created the Serpent even.


Here is where I'll respectfully disagree with you and offer the alternative idea that God did indeed know that Adam and Eve would disobey,


Then punishing them with death and exile is too harsh of a punishment.



and saw the process as an imperative step by which we could achieve freedom, of our own will.

Had he created beings who could not (and therefore would not) fail, he would not have created a man, but rather a pre-programmed robot of sorts. A slave to good.


Why couldn't he make non evil humans who lived forever and if the population gets too high make the planet bigger or move people to other realms?

Why wouldn't he make a world without suffering, perfect in all ways? Nature obeys God's laws without fail, it is our intelligence that leads to evil and knowledge of, as well as the need for things we don't have or don't need and have too much of.

Why can't God create a perfect earth?



With truly free will comes of course the potential for the greatest good and the greatest evil, which would inevitably (and very early on, as we saw it) come to pass.

He was willing to wait the long haul, and in the meantime to bestow us with as many blessings as we offer ourselves curses, in order to allow us the choice to align ourselves with Him (and the forces of good). Or not.

At least that is how I have come to see things.. and this knowledge has brought me tremendous peace.


I am not complaining. I just wonder, why?

I have Faith, God has been good to me, the Holy Spirit has been good to me, so I have no beef with God.

I am just not afraid to question that which I think I should, I don't think an absentee God who allows evil prevalence on a massive scale would blame me for questioning, why?



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:19 PM
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Woah, the quadruple post!

(Or perhaps I've lost count
) Any chance you could go back in and edit/erase 4 of them in order that the thread isn't weighed down a bit?

Hey, I understand your points and have grappled with them plenty myself.

As for suffering, that could be fodder for another post in itself, but I do believe that we are made more perfect (and complete) through our suffering. Not to mention, Jesus said "Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted." I do believe now, through my own experience with grief, I was never alone. I also believe that my experiences with suffering have made me a more compassionate being, and with more depth.

Death is a hard one for us all to accept. I thought of it today as a way in which to prompt us to consider the beauty and fragility of life, and to emphasize the importance of each moment.
I will also say that our brains are flooded with (a certain chemical that for some reason is being edited) at birth and at death, and that it is a fearful experience because it is so unknown, but may not be as horrendous as we imagine.

What do you think?
edit on 9-9-2016 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: zosimov

The whole Garden of Eden story is just describing how our freewill came into being. It’s all symbolic of our own inner walk with God. When we fell, we experienced being cut off from our knowledge of the Spirit within us. Being cut from the Spirit is living in that lower aspect of ourselves, and is represented by the snake in the garden. The Knowledge of Good and Evil is needed for freewill to be present.

Freewill is a loving thing though because without the duality we wouldn’t be able to learn and grow. It’s helps us to see the light by showing us the darkness, so in that sense it is actually good for us; choosing to stay in darkness is what is bad.


- JC



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 07:36 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Agreed, 100%. In my own spiritual odyssey, reading the Bible as a factual account seems to add more problems than it solves. I'd rather look through the story to the actual Truth which is beautiful and pure, IMO. They say the devil is in the details and I'd agree.
I've been a lover of fiction my whole life, and never because I thought the stories were fact, but rather because I saw they were true.

So I'm not gonna disqualify the Bible as a literal history, but neither am I going to get hung up on it.

Thanks for the comment.



posted on Sep, 9 2016 @ 09:29 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov
Woah, the quadruple post!

(Or perhaps I've lost count
) Any chance you could go back in and edit/erase 4 of them in order that the thread isn't weighed down a bit?


I did, my joint was acting up, sorry. I basically wrote a book replacing 2 out of 4 messages because I didn't want 3 blank messages so hopefully the input makes up for the error.



Hey, I understand your points and have grappled with them plenty myself.

As for suffering, that could be fodder for another post in itself, but I do believe that we are made more perfect (and complete) through our suffering. Not to mention, Jesus said "Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted." I do believe now, through my own experience with grief, I was never alone. I also believe that my experiences with suffering have made me a more compassionate being, and with more depth.


I suffered for a long time myself, now I truly have a blessed life with no likelihood of it changing for the worse, it can only get better.



Death is a hard one for us all to accept. I thought of it today as a way in which to prompt us to consider the beauty and fragility of life, and to emphasize the importance of each moment.
I will also say that our brains are flooded with (a certain chemical that for some reason is being edited) at birth and at death, and that it is a fearful experience because it is so unknown, but may not be as horrendous as we imagine.

What do you think?


I think the transition to the next life will be as smooth as the transition into our conscience existence on earth and that it will be in a better place for a lot longer with exactly what you deserve being given you.



posted on Sep, 10 2016 @ 09:04 AM
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originally posted by: superman2012
I agree with you. I also believe that Judas's betrayal was necessary and I read somewhere that Jesus knew it was going to be Judas and more or less had to convince him to do it. It might have just been an opinion piece but without the betrayal, how long would Christianity lasted?

Might not be on topic but your thread title instantly made me think of that.


Judas is indeed an interesting character! In John's account, you'll see that when Jesus handed communal bread to him, the "spirit of satan" entered Judas, and Jesus told him "What you are about to do, do quickly."

So, yes, I do believe that Jesus both knew who would betray him and also prompted him to do so.

Great insight, thanks!



posted on Sep, 10 2016 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: zosimov

Back in 1969 I read a short story in a Science Fiction anthology. I don't remember the title or author's name or even the name on the anthology cover, but here's the story line:

A biologist living under a rather totalitarian government has managed to create life in his lab at just about the time the Bureau of Science has implemented a policy of shutting down all such experiments and research. Rather than flush the life away and destroy all his notes he builds a modest habitat in which they can multiply and evolve.

In a few weeks of his time, many hundreds of generations had passed for the creatures, who had developed agriculture and small villages. But you get the idea that one day for the biologist represents 20 generations of the creatures in the habitat. He then decides to communicate with a message stating, "I created you to live in your world. You may call me Father."

Two days later, the Father gets a reply, "Oh Father, what would you have us do?" By this time, 40 generations in which the people had been able to discover the symbology and the message, they had also built observatories by which they could observe the universe outside their World and watch the actions of the Father. They expanded their habitat through technology and chemistry, tapped in to the computer which controlled the input of nourishment, and could send messages using the Father's computer.

He replied, "You're doing great. Continue as you will."

Meanwhile, the Bureau of Science was aware that the Biologist had defied their decrees and were assembling an assault team to take down the impromptu defenses put up.

In the World, which the people had continued to expand using materials they had added to the list of nutrients to be imported, new discoveries in the fields of electronics, field wave generators, power generation through passive gravitational induction and amplification, etc. were progressing at an enormous pace. Also, new abilities to observe the activities of the Father and interpretation of motives driving his actions. By chance, a notice of impending action to be taken against the biologist by the bureau had been left on a desk observable by the People. The People, in solemn council, determined that they had a mission of utmost urgency to pursue.

When the amassed forces descended upon the lab, they were met with an impenetrable force field. On every police and military radio band came the message, "We are the People. Any future dealings you wish to conduct with the Father will be through us."
-----------------------------------
Anyway, that's pretty much the way I remember the story line.

The difference, as I see it, between our World and the World of the People, is that the People were never told that they were flawed and therefore exiled to a horrible degraded existence because of their own actions.

Would we be better able to adapt and regulate ourselves in a sustainable way if the idea of "fall and exile" had not taken hold of our imaginations?



posted on Sep, 10 2016 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: zosimov

After that, shrimping was easy.







 
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