Michael Moore and Bowling for Columbine: BS

Originally posted by freudling
Not sure why you posted a link to a Canadian Intelligence report dated 1998 when I posted one dated 2004. Go read highlights of that report and then come back and talk to me about indo-Canadian gangs.

Not sure why you are even saying anything about my link. It was supporting your long list of crime in Canada.

In actuality your doing just what Moore did. You are showing all these links just to prove your point. Are they valid examples of violence in Canada? Sure. Was Michael Moore opening peoples doors a valid example of people not locking up? Yeah. He didn't Go to every door in Canada. He didn't take a poll to see what percent of the people lock the door. You slapping every crime link in Canada on here proves nothing. You can do that with any country.

Originally posted by freudling
In fact, lets look at the statistics. Canada actually has almost the highest crime rate of all developed countries. In 2003, per 100,000 people, almost 9,000 criminal offences were committed.

Those kind of comparisions are so irrelevant.
Last year, Amterdam was 'the most criminal' capital of Europe, in the US they advised people not to visit Amsterdam.

You know why it was/is 'the most criminal' capital? Because so many bicycles get stolen each year...

And as sensfan pointed out, he visited Toronto....

He DID visit small town Canada, that was before he went to Toronto. As for Toronto, the blunder is asking a few people about door locking and making a generalization. Property crimes are about 4200 per 100, 000, the highest of all criminal offences. Enough about locking doors: what about Vancouver? You want to break down bicycle stealing. Crimes of violence represent about 11% of all criminal offences committed. Breaking and Entering 10%. Compare that to Amsterdam. Of course, lets skirt the issue some more. The links I posted: MACHETE, MACHETE, MACHETE, GUNS, BEATINGS, FEEDING WOMEN TO PIGS, etc. Hardly bicycle stealing. HA! The bottom line: Canada is not as safe as Moore claims, end of discussion.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by freudling]

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
And as sensfan pointed out, he visited Toronto....

But what neighborhoods? Did he edit out the ones that said yes? Did he go to the more poverty stricken areas and ask them? Most cities have varying areas of safety depending on the neighborhood.

Little Rock Arkansas is one of the most violent cities in America (look it up) but there are areas that are almost crime free and areas the police are afraid to go into. Pine Bluff, also in Arkansas has the highest murder rate in the nation but I have been there dozens of times and have never been even yelled at.

houseandhome.msn.com...

Two of our cities are in the top 5 crime rates in the country but I am willing to bet most of us dont lock their doors except maybe at night. It just depends where you live


[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

These comparisons are irrelevant.
The reason he made Bowling for Columbine is to point out the US is much more violent than other countries, and that's a fact.

They sell/sold bullets @Wallmart for christ sake!
The NRA (rifle Assosciation) visited Columbine after the shooting, what a disgrace, how disrespectful towards the victims of the shooting and their relatives.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
They sell/sold bullets @Wallmart for christ sake!

The wal mart was in Ontario I believe, and why shouldn't walmart sell bullets? It sells everything else

I was right here is the quote

Bowling shows Moore casually buying ammunition at an Ontario Walmart. He asks us to "look at what I, a foreign citizen, was able to do at a local Canadian Wal-Mart." He buys several boxes of ammunition without a question being raised. "That's right. I could buy as much ammunition as I wanted, in Canada."

Is that irrelevant?

heres a link

www.hardylaw.net...

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
The wal mart was in Ontario I believe, and why shouldnt walmart sell bullets? It sells everything else

You obviously dont understand what Bowling for Columbine is all about, and why he made it.

Don't you think selling guns and bullets in normal stores, everywhere, will increase violence?
Dont you think it will make it a lot easier for kids to get their hands on a gun?

OF COURSE IT DOES.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
Don't you think selling guns and bullets in normal stores, everywhere, will increase violence?
Dont you think it will make it a lot easier for kids to get their hands on a gun?
OF COURSE IT DOES.

If only pocket knives were available to hurt other people that's what people would use. The only weapon in my house is Dog mace. If the kids got into that nobody is going to die or get mutilated.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
You obviously don't understand what Bowling for Columbine is all about, and why he made it.

I think I do its just not the same reason YOU think he did. I think he was just making a quick buck off of the tragedy

Don't you think selling guns and bullets in normal stores, everywhere, will increase violence?

Not if they are not being sold to criminals. How many convicted criminals buy their guns at walmart? It is not WHERE they are being sold its WHO owns them and what they are using them for.

Don't you think it will make it a lot easier for kids to get their hands on a gun?

OF COURSE IT DOES.

How? Wal Mart doesn't sell guns to kids, not even in Canada.

The bottom line is the Bill of Rights gives us the right to own guns AND bullets.

If your point is that America is more violent than Canada then I wont argue that point. But the gun laws here will NEVER change because most Americans agree with them.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
The NRA (rifle Assosciation) visited Columbine after the shooting, what a disgrace, how disrespectful towards the victims of the shooting and their relatives.

How is that any less disrespectful than the Million Mom March using these shooting incidents as a statistic in attempt to disarm people?

People have a right to defend themselves against criminals and foreign invaders without having to rely on police or the military to save them. People have a right to protect themselves against their own government should things go wrong with it. And it is for all these reasons, the last one especially, that excessive limitations on armament are wrong. Armament represents a serious responsibility, that people may be severely punished for misusing, but not until after the crime. Don't trample on the rights of others who do nothing wrong.

Guns are not easy to obtain legally in Canada. The laws are fairly strict: you have to obtain an FAC (Firearms Acquisition Certificate) which requires you to be screened for a criminal record as well as requires you to take a test by a designated Gun Smith, usually one-to-one. The option is self study and then take the test or classroom study and then take the test. If you get one thing wrong on the final, hands on test you fail. I believe once obtained the FAC is valid for 5 years? Most everyone carrying a gun has to do the aforementioned: from RCMP officers to Brinks security drivers. However, in the Military, it is not required.

The laws are strict in terms of transporting and storing your guns. They must be locked in an approved container at all times, even rifles while at home and in transport. You can only transport them most times to and from the shooting range you applied for. You can NOT under any circumstances carry it on your persons, only when at the shooting range. So, even if you have a permit to own a gun, you are NOT allowed to "holster it" and thus it will only be legally useful for target practice. The legislation may have changed over the past few years, but I don't know the details. In fact, generally, I know that the regulations got even tougher.

That said, one can easily obtain a gun illegally in Canada (i.e. Vancouver or Toronto within a few hours to days and a selection to boot).

As for allowing people to own guns, well, perhaps that IS the problem. We allow people to carry Machetes and anybody in Vancouver has probably heard of at least one youth machete attack in the recent past. Just follow the links I posted, there are numerous articles and special reports sprayed all over the web about the problem we have with them.

And sure, on a grand scale, and as I pointed out in my first point, Moore was right about pointing out the staggering numbers of homicides committed each year in the US. But I am sure, having lived in the most heinous areas of Vancouver, that parts of Canada, from my experience, would rival the US in terms of violence any day.

I can't help but notice that this has some how turned into freudling posting headlines from around Canada and the lock-doors argument is obviously that of personal choice. *Sigh* another thread that could have made some good points about Canadain life is now lost. Oh well.

Canadian Conspirator:

Canada is a great place: the greatest. But there are problems that need to be addressed in terms of politics that won't get solved on these forums. So many areas of Canada are beautiful and wealthy, especially BC. Vancouver is the nicest city I have ever been too, and I have lived and been around other parts of the world for years. That said, take a read of some of those articles. And it is not just that, but the drug trade in BC is over a 1 billion dollar industry per year. It is a great place to live and our Government, comparitively, is NOT corrupt and keeps its nose clean, but there is a lot of crime and violence too. I was actually thinking of doing a short film and letting people in the Gov look at it about the homeless problem in Vancouver and Victoria as well as all the prostitutes and drug addicts on Vancouvers East side. But I won't since that will screw up my career. My office was in a pretty nice part of one of the aforementioned cities, and almost everyday there were crack heads shooting up in the parking lot in midday.

Winnipeg has lots of crime too, with the huge Native population, as well as Regina and Toronto: blacks getting arrested on younge street with louisville sluggers holstered under their baggy pants. And as a Gen Xer, even 10 years ago in High School guys had guns and weapons: it was common.

The conclusion is that Canada is really cool, but there is an element of crime that exists that is huge in scale, that is why the RCMP and city police departments increased their funding over the past 5 years to fight it, and the drug trade was not even admitted to or mentioned much in the papers until about 5 years ago. As someone who worked in the Nightclubs all over, I knew when they stepped it up: undercover agents have been swarming clubs for the past 4 years. Some are good, but others can be spotted right away. They call this move counter attack task forcing. As a result, there have been some major busts, and recently about a dozen in Victoria, BC on Vancouver island. Vancouver is going after the HA, since they are the foundation of the infrastructure.

In terms of the pot business, here is how it works:

The Hells Angels set up huge grow operations in smaller towns in BC, and I am sure they do the same in other provinces. In BC, they have 5-10,000 plants per operation running with diesel generators housed in sound proof compartments. The plants are growing hydroponically of course, inside a warehous like building. Since there are many orhards in the interior of BC, it is an excellent place to do it since there are many warehouses (older ones). They use indiglo lighting, the best with the three colors, and have a rather sophisticated pumping system of water. Everyday they check the Digital PH reader to make sure it is exactly where it should be and spend hundreds on plant steroids to decrease growth time. With their operation, they can turnover a crop in about a month. Their are botonists involved as well. The plants themselves are the renowned HA clones, an excellent strain of POT. The resulting plants are incredibly rich in THC crystals, since they have perfected the pot growing environment, from CO2 generators to Temperature control.

Then there is Canada's lax immigration laws.....

[edit on 23-1-2005 by freudling]

[edit on 23-1-2005 by freudling]

ok.....???? Like I said before these just sound like things I read in the newspaper everyday.

freudling, you think Canadian cities are bad just look south.... I think we are doing a very good job keeping the Murder rate 5 times lower then the US rate.(Toronto had 64 Murders in 2004..) Crime rate in general is lower as well. I do agree that Heroin, Oxycontin(you can inject that too), Crack, and Meth are blights on our society but how can we stop it? We cannot go the US rout by locking them up and treating them like criminals but we cannot let kill themselves either. Maybe term them as Mentally Insane because no Sane person would do that to themselves and have them commited.

Homelessness is a biggie in Toronto, it seems that its not getting better. We could put money into affordible house but then we wouldn't be able to do something else. The Feds control the purse strings and everywhere budgets are strained.

Check this article out....

www.freep.com...

freudling,

Concerning the homeless problem in the East End, the provincial govt is well aware of the extent of it. Who do you think caused most of the problem by cutting back mental health funding, closing down much of Riverside, and throwing them out on the street?

Ya Duzy, you are right. Campbell has sent shockwaves in that respect. The homeless problem has always been just that: a problem. But since Campbell came in and made Social cuts, I noticed the problem INFLATE significantly. The problem is so bad that in the summer time in Victoria, if you know the city, you ZIG ZAG your way to the downtown core, avoiding all the main routes to avoid all of the pan handlers.

As for Toronto and homelessness, yup, it sucks their too. My opinion is that it is significantly worse in BC, since the climate is much milder, similiar to flux of homeless people that flock to and have flocked to LA. Moreover, BC has so many hippies. I love the one guy who is always downtown that has that sign that says, "Rent Boycott." All they do is bask in the sun, make bead neclaces, and smoke weed. And a significant amount of cases, they chose to live on the streets.

Also, you guys are right about the violence in the US: they have far more murders than we do. However, having someone break into your home or cut you up on the street is hardly safe. In fact, I am living in a very large center in somewhere in Eastern Europe in one of the "worst" areas and it is a joke compared to Vancouver's East End, and a very big joke compared to some of the poorest black areas in the US. Most don't have guns and they use other tactics to take your stuff, like putting knock out gas under seats in the train compartments, or incredibly good pick pocketers, etc. Less violence, but still lots of "crime."

In terms of Violence, Vancouver and Prince George, BC take the cake for the most violent places I have ever experienced. Canadians are not murdering each other, we are cutting each other up and smashing our faces in on the Ice Rink: fighting in Hockey is part of our culture. I am not saying that it makes people more violent on the street, but we are definately more violent in sport and in society than any other place I have been.

Actually freudling, I was referring to the cutbacks in the early nineties, the ones that started the problem in the first place. But Cambpell has only made the situation worse.