The Sabbath

It may come to a shock to a lot of you who think that the ten commandments were not kept previous to Mt. Sinai. What happened at Mt. Sinai was that they were finally put into writing for the first time. Previous to this, they were a verbal agreement. How do we know they preexisted Sinai and were a verbal agreement?

What was the sin of Adam and Eve?
The first sin was disobedience against the voice of Yahweh. In doing this, they also broke several commandments. One would be they disobeyed their parent, they basically put another eloahim before Yahweh, they coveted for something not theirs to have and broke several others in the process.

For example, Yahweh usually names things in order of importance. Here is what it says about Abraham in Gen. 26:5, 5 "...because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments (collectively all 10), my statutes, and my torath (plural laws)"

BTW, notice with Abraham this was also before Mt. Sinai. But for the order of importance, listening to the voice of Yahweh ranks number one. And another thing, Abraham was not a Jew. He was Hebrew. As a matter of fact, there weren't any "jews" in existence yet because the tribe of Judah hadn't been born yet.

Another place where we know that they understood the commandments would be with Cain and Abel. Cain was warned of committing sin before he killed his brother Abel (Gen. 4:6f). I.e, murder is one of the 10 commandments.

Then we have the story of Abimelech and Joseph and both feared the sin of adultery (Gen. 20:1-9 and 39:6-9). Adultery is one of the commandments.

In Gen. 31:32-16, Jacob acknowledged that stealing was a sin. You shall not steal is one of the commandments.

Then we have the statements about the grievous sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. See Gen. 19:5-9 and compare Jude 7; Ezek. 16:49 following and also see Lev. 18:22, 20:13; Josephus Antiq. 1:11:1; Jubilees 16:5.

All of these sins are before the Mt. Sinai covenant agreement.

Next we have this in Isa. 24:4f, The land mourns, languishes, droops and languishes THE WORLD; the proud people of the land droop; and the land is profaned under its inhabitants for THEY transgress laws, violate a statute, and break the WORLD-AGE LASTING COVENANT.

The whole world is under the same exact covenant. Y'all may not like this, but it's the truth. There is no separate thing for this group and another group of people. It's the same road to salvation for every person alive. If you understood the plan of salvation, then you'd understand with understanding.

In Hebrew thought, including the thought behind the Scriptures, all of mankind was in the loins of Adam, the first man.

Hos. 6:6 and following states: For I desired trustworthiness and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of eloahim more than burnt offerings, but they (THE ISRAELITES), LIKE ADAM, they have BROKEN THE COVENANT; they have acted like traitors against me.

Notice that the Israelites broke the exact same covenant as the first man, our parent, Adam. We all came from Adam. BTW, you'll have to read the Hebrew on this one.

Next, when the word "commandments" is written, it is collectively talking about all 10 commandments. They are also called the ten debarim and these are all tied together. They are unifed. If you break #10, you break the first one.

Tiza

Steve,
You have the right attitude. We can only work out our own salvation, not someone else's.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Tiza

I am a Saturday Sabbath breaker and I trample it under my feet.

Jesus is enough.

Originally posted by Yxboom
I am a Saturday Sabbath breaker and I trample it under my feet.

Jesus is enough.

I was going to reply to one of your previous posts but after reading this, it is obvious that you are simply trolling.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Why are you attempting to give me these history and Talmudic lessons that have nothing to do with the claim I make and presented with the very fact that Adam and Eve did not know anything about the sabbath?

it is just to explain that you are right. They did not know anything about shabbat - how should they be able to keep it? They have never been told to keep it, nor it had been explained to them how to keep it.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

is that no one can state that the seventh day of rest does in fact equate to friday/saturday, and can be thursday for all we know.

And this is wrong,

If you please take a look at the jewish calender which has been given to us by G'd. HE told us to keep the 7th day as a shabbat - and furthermore he created the very first day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, and day 6 and of course day 7 - shabbat.

You just have to count the days

It is pretty clear which day is shabbat day and how and wich time it has to begin and end.

....so....Where is your problem?

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Riwka]

Posted by shmick25
I was going to reply to one of your previous posts but after reading this, it is obvious that you are simply trolling.

I simply get tired of the heretical notion that we are subject to the requirements of Old Testament Sabbath keeping.

Okay, I stirred the pot a little bit too much.

But in all honesty, yes, I do trample over their Saturday Sabbath requirements. And if you don't keep the Saturday Sabbath, as it is described in the Old Testament, then you do too.



[edit on 3-2-2005 by Yxboom]

Originally posted by Tiza

And another thing, Abraham was not a Jew.

That is wrong.

Abraham (or Awraham) was the first Jew, the founder of Judaism, the physical and spiritual ancestor of the Jewish people. He is one of the three Patriarchs of Judaism.

See (Bere# (Gen). 12) : The b'rit (covenant) between G'd and the Jewish people was established.

Originally posted by Tiza

They are also called the ten debarim

Asseret (10) hadiberot


[edit on 3-2-2005 by Riwka]

Posted by shmick25
Snip...
Yxboom, you talk about these people as having cult tendencies when you are flashing around a masonic aviator?

LOL

Like I said: many SDAs, JWs and LDSs will go to heaven. Why??? Because Jesus is enough!!!

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Yxboom]

Rebekka writes>>Abraham (or Awraham) was the first Jew, the founder of Judaism, the physical and spiritual ancestor of the Jewish people. He is one of the three Patriarchs of Judaism.


Hi, Rebekka:

Abraham was not a Jew. The sons of Israel were in his loins, though, but he was a Hebrew. The term "Jew" is so misunderstood, and you can check the Scriptures and the history. The word "Jew" is not even mentioned in the entire Torah.

"Jew" is an abbreviated form of the term Yahud, Yahudi, Yahudai and so forth and so on------i.e., the tribe of Yahudah (Judah) and those that joined them.

Josephus states in Antiq., 11:5:7, "So the Yudaioi (Jews) prepared for the work (rebuilding the Temple of Yahweh): THAT IS THE NAME THEY ARE CALLED FROM THE DAY THEY CAME UP FROM BABYLONIA, which is taken from the TRIBE OF JUDAH, which first came to these places and thence both they and the country gained that appellation."

So the term "Jews" became attached to all those participating in the factions of Judaism. Judaism is not the religion of the OT. As a matter of fact, Judaism should be regarded as beginning at the time when the Jews came back from Babylonian exile.



Rebekka writes: See (Bere# (Gen). 12) : The b'rit (covenant) between G'd and the Jewish people was established

Rebekka, go back and restudy the covenant agreements. The covenants of promise, i.e., the eternal--->everlasting covenant---should not be confused with the Mt. Sinai covenant agreement. There are many covenants. The Abrahamic Covenants of Promise are for all of mankind. The covenant at Mt. Sinai, which also later augmentations attached to it in will form, was a covenant (marriage) agreement between the House of Israel, the House of Judah and Yahweh. However, they broke the covenant agreement at Mt. Sinai.

And yes, Adam & Eve surely did keep the sabbath, as well as the feast days. And even many ancient Jewish works aknowledge this too!

Tiza

For those that would like to read and comment.

www.biblesabbath.org...

www.biblesabbath.org...

Hello,
Yes, not only the Scriptures prove sabbath-keeping, but so does history thoughout time. All ancient Christians, who BTW where not called Christians at first, kept the sabbath. What I'm saying is, these were followers of Yahushua (Jesus) the messiah. They walked in his footsteps and kept sabbath. Saul kept sabbath and he was sent as an apostle to the nations. I'm not going to post all those places about Saul (Paul). I previously posted them already.

Tiza

Rebekka:

When I was talking about Christians at first not being called Christians, this is interesting.

Early on the followers of the messiah did not call themselves Christians. Most of the early followers were called Nazoraenes (Nazarenes) or Jesseans (Grk. is Iessaioi; meaning the same). However, amongst themselves, they called themselves Yahwehists after the name of their deity and also knowing this was the name of the messiah too.

After a matter of time, the name Christians became attached to them, but not in the beginning. Most of the early Christians were from the tribe of Yahudah (Judah).

Now, the Jews gained the term "jew" from outsiders, not amongst themselves. You can study the Scriptures on this point, because I'm thinking the first term of "Jews" used is in 2 Kings 16:6, but they were first called "Jews" from outsiders, maybe Syrians, but it was for the tribe of Judah. Again, this term "Jews" caught on amongst themselves. It was not a name that the tribe of Judah gave to themselves, just like what happened with the Christians.

Tiza

Look, I'm not an SDA, and I don't agree with the prophecies of E.G. White, simply don't hold to those prophecies, but I can look at their teaching of the Sabbath and tell you this: They have some of the best historical data available on sabbath-keeping throughout history. If you'll study their history on groups who have kept sabbath thoughout time, you'll see that it's always been kept and their use of historical documents proves it.

Next, the Scriptures about proving all things, sorting through the good and throwing away the bad is what is happening here. You can sort through their stuff on the sabbath regarding history and prove it's a good teaching. Just because it's good, doesn't mean it's all good.

Where are people's minds? Can't you-all think (reason) for yourself and sort it out with the Scriptures? Yahweh says we must R-E-A-S-O-N. This means sorting things out, the things that you research.

Here is the thing that one must have this attitude with the Scriptues and ask this specific quesiton: WHAT DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY? That is the specific question one must ask. This is the question that I can look at someone's post and say, yeah, he's/she's asking that question.

What this all boils down to is this, whether I believe something or not does not make it so. It's what the truth is. I can believe the moon is purple with pink dots and this doesn't make it so. Anyone can have a specific TRUTH that they think is so, but it's not reality. Yahweh's word is reality. The world believes in a fairy tale, sad to say.

I realize here that many do not hold the Scriptures as having authority. To those people, well, they just won't get it. Some hold the Talmud as having authority. Some hold the Koran as having authority. So what? That's their salvation and if that's what they choose, so be it. If you hold the Scriptures as having authority, then you MUST learn to ask the Scriptures and allow them to harmonize, because they do harmonize from GENESIS to REVELATION.

The NT simply enhances what the OT teaches over and over and over again. For example, keep the Torah of Trust, which includes the 10 commandments, feast days and various laws, keep the Covenant of Promise (same as Torah of Trust), which includes listening to the voice of Yahweh, keeping his charge. Keep these things and live! Love my sacred name, which is Yahweh!!!!!!!

Tiza

One more thing....

I don't get much of a chance to answer the posts. It gets difficult working and all and I've had rush jobs. But someone said, and I can't remember who -- Somehwereinbetween, was it you? -- who mentioned that how could Adam know when sundown was? Well, Somewhere..., it may not have been you, I simply can't remember.

However, to whoever it was, it wasn't necessary for Adam to simply guess when a day ended. At that time and because of the canopy that was in the upper atmosphere, there was no rain. No rain at all. The earth was watered with a fine mist before the great flood of Noah. These people had beautiful skin, BTW, because of their atmosphere.

Anyway, for those after this time peirod, after the great flood, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to map the days out and tell when sundown is. We do it all the time now because we observe those things. You can tell from one day to the next about when sundown is. And if you go a few minutes over sundown, doesn't matter at all because you've loved the sabbath. It's not a "sin" to teach Yahweh beyond the sabbath, by the way. It's a blessing!




And YXboom, I promise that I'll answer your post when I get a chance. You're not even close to what I was asking, but your post is good-hearted.

Tiza

Originally posted by Riwkait is just to explain that you are right. They did not know anything about shabbat - how should they be able to keep it? They have never been told to keep it, nor it had been explained to them how to keep it.And this is wrong,

If you please take a look at the jewish calender which has been given to us by G'd. HE told us to keep the 7th day as a shabbat - and furthermore he created the very first day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, and day 6 and of course day 7 - shabbat.

You just have to count the days

It is pretty clear which day is shabbat day and how and wich time it has to begin and end.

....so....Where is your problem?

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Riwka]

I cannot be right and wrong on the same issue. If Adam and Eve did not commemorate the sabbath, then they were not counting days, and those days did not begin until Moses. The Hebrew calendar after Hillel was adjusted to reflect the lunar year to a solar year by the attachment of a leap year to make up for the lost 11 days per year of the lunar calendar. the Jews have no, and I mean absolutely NO record of such an adjustment prior to Hillel. This adjustment came to the Jews either via Babylonian concept or Egyptian, where Jews were densely populating both Egypt and Mesopotamia. When Moses wondered the desert with his rag tag troupe, they were deficient in the ways of scholarly Egyptian teachings because of their status evidenced by their pagan worship, and had no choice but to use lunar phases.

The Hebrew calendar can be proven mathematically incorrect in a variety of ways, here is one:

In the Hebrew calendar 5,764 years have passed, and the calculation of those years is only one of many mathematical problems;

Counting from Adam to the days of the flood according to Biblical text shows that 1,656 years have passed. this is arrived at by using the ages of the patriarchs at the births of their sons and the 600 years of Noah at the time of the flood:

Adam 130; Seth 105:Enosh 90; Cainan 70; Mahalaleel 65; Jared 162; Enoch 65; Methuselah 187 Lamech 182. Total of 1,056 to the birth of Noah. The flood happened in Noah's 600th year, therefore 1,656 years after creation.

The Jewish calendar with the Hillel adjustment makes it on par with the Gregorian every 3 years, hence the 2,004 years past in the Gregorian equates to 3,760BCE years to Adam.

To calculate when the flood was then, takes 5,764-1,656 and takes you back 4,108 years from today.

To come to terms with the Gregorian calendar that would be 4,108-2,004 to 2,104BCE.

Since the Hebrew calendar has now caught up, the two results should be exactly equal, that is to say, the year 2,104BCE counting backwards to Adam and Eve should equal year 1.

As you can see, it does not.

The answer lies within the blatant rescripting of the Egyptian creation theories by the Jewish scribes, all three of the theories ( I have thus far mentioned only two elsewhere on purpose) to try and catch up in scope. But this did not work, for archaeology stepped in and spoiled the party.

To prove my point I present to you Abraham's introduction: he was the son of Terah who was born in "Ur of the Chaldees." Gen.11:28.

So what is wrong with that picture? Nothing save for the fact that Abraham was born 8-900 years before this was so. Let us go through that again in detail based on when who was born:

Adam 130; Seth 105:Enosh 90; Cainan 70; Mahalaleel 65; Jared 162; Enoch 65; Methuselah 187 Lamech 182. Total of 1,056 to the birth of Noah. genesis in one of its first questionable passages of lineage then says that Noah was 500 years old and gave birth to all three(really?).
Shem had Arphaxad at 102 years of age, Thus far that is 1,758 years and continuing:

Arphaxad 35; Salah 30; Ever 34; Peleg 30; Reu 32; Serug 30; Nahor 29: Terah 70 to Abe. In total then to Abe's birth was 2,048 years from creation. That equates in Hebrew years to 3,716 years ago; to 1,714BCE Gregorian.

The city of Ur, identified to us as the Ur of the Chaldees, was not a part of the Chaldeen empire until between the 8th and 9th centuries BCE, a massive 8 to 9 hundred years before this was known by Moses the supposed author of the Pentateuch.

Your historical account has a problem with chronology, does it not?







[edit on 2/3/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by sntx
I do not accept responsibility for what others chose to do. To say that I force or would force anyone to work on the Sabbath is simply a lie. As a general rule I do not spend money until sundown on Saturday. People would be working wether I used their services or not

Originally posted by FlyersFan

That's a cop-out.

You may be right about that. It is certainly something worth considering and praying about. Considering what I have recently been through I doubt that it is a cop out though. You see until recently I worked for a company that does business seven days a week. I was in the position of having to work every Saturday. I requested that I be given saturdays off. While my request was being considered I did struggle with the fact that if it was honored then one of my coworkers would then be forced to work on Saturday. My guilt was somewhat eased when I found out that the only reason my coworkers did not want to work Saturday was that it would interfere with their Friday night partying. The point ended up being moot because I was second lowest in seniority and my request was denied because honoring it would have been a "hardship" to the department. I think my point is even though my employer was "forcing" me to work it was ultimately still my choice as to wether or not to continue working there.

You have to accept responsibility for your part in
causing people to 'sin' by working on the sabbath.

I don't have to accept responsibility for others choices neither do I have any part in them making said choices.

You said that you go to the zoo and the park etc. That's spending money BEFORE sundown. To say that it's okay to use people working on the Sabbath because 'they'd be working anyways' is like me saying
that it's okay for me to kill people because they are going to die
someday anyways.

It's not the same at all. People do not have a choice about wether they will die or not. They do however have a choice regarding what days they will work. Also, the majority of Christians have no qualms about working on Saturday if that's what they want to do, and it is not my place to judge them. I doubt that the secular ones feel that I have anything to do with their weekend job either.

If you didn't use the services of people on the Sabbath then they'd loose business and they'd be forced to follow what you call God's rule about the Sabbath.

I think you attributing power to me that man in general has failed to demonstrate. We have been given thousands of years to follow the commandments and the world at large ignores them. Only the king of kings can enforce the law.

For you to continue to use their services on the day you say everyone should be doing holy and family things makes you just as 'guilty' as they are. It doesn't matter if you accept responsibility, you ARE in part responsible for the continuation of them working on the Sabbath.

You can assert that I am partly responsible and you may have a point. I remain unconvinced, but I do thank you for bringing up this point as it is worthy of thought and discussion.

Steve

[edit on 2/3/0505 by sntx]

Originally posted by sntx
It is certainly something worth considering and praying about.

Please do. From your post it seems that you are rather sincere about
trying to follow God's law as you see it. There is a bible quote that will
back up what I'm trying to say. "YOU are your brothers keeper'.
By contributing to the secular din on the sabbath you are indeed not
keeping watch over your brother. I wish you well on your journey.
Bye.

One of my take-aways from Jesus' message is that the people focused on the law of the Old Testament to such intensity, that they lost in their heart the meaning of the law. The ten commands has a theme. Love and respect for God in addition to love an respect for other people. With that being said, it follows up very nicely with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:34.

This question had been pressing me for some time as well and because of this thread, I hadn't the motivation to dig in and reach for the answer. Seek and you'll find I guess. Okay, enough about my ramblings, let's hear what the son of God has to say:

Matthew 12 - "At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. Hs disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him 'Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.'
"He answered, 'Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread-which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice ,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
"Then he said to the man, 'Stretch out your hand.' So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Check it out, here's what I got from it. The Sabbath is a day of worship and mercy. The original reason for the Sabbath was that one day of the week, peeps would put down their hammers and 'give it up to God'. Jesus epitomized this spirit by taking care of the people around him and doing good works. This is a model of how God should be with you.

Everyday should be the Sabbath! Don't wonder if you're breaking this law, make the law part of your every day life. Why do 'due diligence' one day a week? Christianity isn't supposed to feel like an obligation, work, or mandatory service one Sunday morning a week. God is supposed to be in your heart everyday, connected like a cable modem. How easy it is to stay in the spirit then! How easy it is to unconciously do good works everyday! How easy it is to forgive, love, respect, and help other people!


[edit on 4-2-2005 by saint4God]

Steve writes>>You can assert that I am partly responsible and you may have a point. I remain unconvinced, but I do thank you for bringing up this point as it is worthy of thought and discussion.


Hi, Steve:

You do not have responsibility for whether outsiders keep sabbath or not. That is not under your control. You have responsibility for Steve and whoever lives within your gates. For example, your family who lives in your household, you're responsible. One, because you're the head of the house and you don't want a divided house because it will not stand.

And Yahweh gives us all choices, he never forces us to do anything.

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life (the blessing) and death (the curse), blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live...

Tiza

Originally posted by saint4God I found the answer thank you.

One of my take-aways from Jesus' message is that the people focused on the law of the Old Testament to such intensity, that they lost in their heart the meaning of the law.

Actually, all you have done is detract from your case. You have not found the answer, you compounded the argument against yourself by choosing the reference you did. As with:

With that being said, it follows up very nicely with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:34.

The irony is that you chose to use Jesus referencing the OT to claim that others rely too much on the OT. Well, while choosing the Matthew reference was wise, it does not fly, since, if both testaments are supposed to be the divine word of God, then one of them is deceiving you.

For that we shall look to Mark's rendering of this event: "Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was hungered...How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread..."

Which one do you choose to discredit for not knowing who was what, Mark or Samuel?

Samuel 21:1 Then came David to Ahimelech the priest...

And who was Ahimelech you ask? Well, for one he was the priest with whom David had the shewbread issue. He was also:

1SA22:20 and one of the sons of Ahimelech the son of Ahitub, named Abiathar...

The father of the man wrongly named by Jesus as being the high priest at the time of the incident.


So much for the divine word of God.


[edit on 2/4/05 by SomewhereinBetween]