The Sabbath

Originally posted by Tiza
Riwka writes: (1) bere# bara eholim et hashamajim ve'et ha'eretz:

Hi, Riwka:

Things are not always as they first seem to be.

The first two words in Gen. 1:1: be-ra#h, in the beginning or starting time. This reveals a previous time before Gen. 1:2. How long a period, I do not know.

In Gen. 1:2, it talks about the earth had become tohu and bohu.

That might be a translation problem from hebrew into your language.

hatiah means "was"

(1) bere# bara elohim et haschamajim ve'et ha'aretz

means : In the beginning G'd created heaven and earth

(2) ha'aretz hajitah tohu vavohou .....

means: [Planet] Earth WAS disordered and muddle.

(3) vehaomer elohim yehi or wa yehi or.

means: And G'd said: let there be light - and there was light.


(5) wahikara elohim laor jom we ha hoshech kara lajla; wa jehi erev wa jehi woker: jom echad.

means: And G'd called the light day and the darkness he called night; it has been evening, it has been morning: a day.

This has been DAY 1 on planet earth.


Rebekka

Originally posted by Tiza

Adam was a priest in the Garden of Eden. If Adam was a priest, do you think that Adam would have forgotten the sabbath day

?

Adam was neither a priest, nor did he have a shabbos at Gan Eden.


Rebekka

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Riwka]

Riwka writes: This mitzwa is only for those who accepted the tora (jews)


Hi, Riwka:

To get a better understanding of terms, please explain what you mean by "Jews." In your understanding, are you trying to say all the Israelites were Jews? Are you trying to say Abraham was a Jew? How about Adam?

Thanks,
Tiza

Riwka writes: hatiah means "was"


Hi, Riwka:

Well, I'm not having a problem with undestanding the word meanings at all. And it doesn't really matter if my transliteration is different of the actual words than yours. It doesn't change the meaning of the words. Hitah, your transliteration, hatiah, can mean to exist, i.e., be or become, come to pass.

So whether "hitah" means "is, was" or "became" is by the context. Remember, I said earlier the Scriptures say for us to learn line upon line, precept upon precept, etc.? And by the context of the Scriptures using this method of study, it stands to reason that when you put it altogether, hitah means "became."

For example, in Isa. 45:18 and following, For this says Yahweh, creator of the heavens. He is the elohim, forming the earth and making it. He established it, not bara-h (creating towards) tohu (a wasteland); he formed it to be inhabited.

So since Yahweh did not create the earth to become a wasteland and it was previously tohu and bohu (i.e., waste and wild), then it stands to reason that at some point in time after the creation of the earth, it had become a wasteland.

And then again, you have to also put together with what the Scriptures speak of the previous olam (world-age), what life form existed in it, the fact that Yahweh destroyed it.

Tiza

Originally posted by Tiza

To get a better understanding of terms, please explain what you mean by "Jews."

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

Originally posted by Tiza

In your understanding, are you trying to say all the Israelites were Jews?

The Jewish people are generally referred to as the Children of Israel.

Originally posted by Tiza

Are you trying to say Abraham was a Jew?

Awram acepted the offer G'd made and so the b'rit (covenant) between G'd and the Jewish people was established ( lech lecha (Gen) 17,11)
and G'd changed Awram's name to Awraham (father of many)

Originally posted by Tiza

How about Adam?

The hebrew word for human, man, person is Adam - he has been the first human on planet earth, created on day 6.

(Adam has NOT been a Jew, Awram has been the first Jew.)

Originally posted by Tiza

Riwka writes: This mitzwa is only for those who accepted the tora (jews)

The mitzwa to keep Shabbat is one of those G’d gave to the jews


Rebekka

Originally posted by Tiza
Riwka writes: hatiah means "was"


Hi, Riwka:

Well, I'm not having a problem with undestanding the word meanings at all. And it doesn't really matter if my transliteration is different of the actual words than yours. It doesn't change the meaning of the words. Hitah, your transliteration, hatiah, can mean to exist, i.e., be or become, come to pass.

My Tora is in hebrew, I do not use a transliteration.

But that's what I tried to explain to you. It MATTERS what is the written Tora and in the oral Tora - and you can't translate as you like it.

(Of course you can, but then the meaning you will get might be different to the original version)


Rebekka

Riwka, you write: But that's what I tried to explain to you. It MATTERS what is the written Tora and in the oral Tora - and you can't translate as you like it.


Hi, Riwka:

My whole OT is in the Hebrew, also English, and I have the English and Greek NT, so I surely can understand what is being written. All one has to do is research the wordings. It also helps to have a good teacher.

What it sounds like you're trying to say is that nobody can understand the Hebrew but you? Not! It's there for everyone to understand who wishes to take the time to search it all out.

BTW, I'm interested in what's in the written Torah, not the oral Torah at all.

Tiza

Originally posted by Tiza

All one has to do is research the wordings.

No. That is a very big illusion.

Give it a try and put an text into an electronic translator, for example google. You will see that the result is a big difference to the original, a complete different and new context. Each word, each letter ( Hebrew does not have vowels) matters, grammar of each sentence is important for understanding.
It is much much much more than only "research the wordings"

Originally posted by Tiza

What it sounds like you're trying to say is that nobody can understand the Hebrew but you?

What it sounds for you is not what I wrote. I pointed out, that in case a transliteration into another language is bad, the whole context could be missinterpreted. (In my opinion, this happend in your interpretation of bere#)

Originally posted by Tiza

BTW, I'm interested in what's in the written Torah, not the oral Torah at all.

Jews need both - written and oral Tora - to understand and keep everything G'd wanted us to do......
.....and the Christian Testament plays no role, no role whatsoever in the religious thinking of the Jew.

Different religions.


laijla tov,
Rebekka

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Riwka]

Riwka writes: What it sounds for you is not what I wrote. I pointed out, that in case a transliteration into another language is bad, the whole context could be missinterpreted.


Hi, Riwka:

I think you are mixing up 'transliteration' with 'translation.' Transliteration is bringing the actual sound of a word from one language over into another language. What I was trying to explain to you is that my transliteration is different than yours.

It's like taking the sacred name Yahweh as in written in paleo-Hebrew letters, then bringing the exact sound of his name over into Engish alphabet, for example, like writing Yahweh or also sounds Yah-oo-ey or Yah-u-ey. All those ways his name can be transliterated into the English language.

Also, Riwka, no, I do not go by the oral traditions at all and do not care to.

And I understand be-ra#h very well and what it means in Gen. 1. One way you can understand it better is to have the NT. The NT actually enhances what is taught in the OT.

Tiza

Originally posted by RiwkaSomewhereinbetween,

G'd said "Shamor we sachor" - I do not exactly know how you translate this to your language but it means "keep and think" of the shabbat.

This mitzwa is only for those who accepted the tora (jews) - and since he said "wa jehi erev wa jehi woker: jom echad" ( this means: it became evening, it became morning: a day) it is clear, how a "DAY" has to start and end.

Once more, this does not address how Adam and Eve knew to celebrate the 14th day as the sabbath, nor does it address anything else I have raised. So I fail to understand why you all think that quoting me hebrew text is relevant to my statements.

it is not an idea, but TORA. BERE# (Gen) 2,3.

It is indeed an idea. With tomorrow he will be creating a new day, and we have heard nothing from him about his not resting from over 5,764 years ago.

But this is, what I tried to explain to you: The minutes YOU use are meaningless. The jewish hour is not absolute. It is NOT devided in minutes - the hour is relative.

For the last time, what does this have to do with proving to me that Adam and Eve knew to celebrate Shabbat?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

But 5,000 years ago, no one knew this did they?

Of course, at least one knew: the creator.

Well I am very glad he knew this. Did he impart this knowledge to Adam and Eve?

The Hebrew calendar ( which incorporates both the cycle of the sun and the moon into one useable calendar [the solar cycle retains the importance in regard to the measuring of the agricultural times and the lunar cycle is used for the marking of the festivals]) is NOT an invention of the Jews.

So what?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

For the last time, what does this have to do with proving to me that Adam and Eve knew to celebrate Shabbat?

I never said, Adam celebrated Shabbat. Adam was not able to celebrate Shabbat. He even did not know what Shabbat means

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

The Hebrew calendar ( which incorporates both the cycle of the sun and the moon into one useable calendar [the solar cycle retains the importance in regard to the measuring of the agricultural times and the lunar cycle is used for the marking of the festivals]) is NOT an invention of the Jews.

So what?

Important, because it is given by G'd - and of course you are only able to keep a shabbat and to keep all the Mitzwas the time it is explained to you what it means (for example Shabbat or kosher food, etc. ) and how to keep it.


Rebekka



[edit on 1-2-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Tiza

then bringing the exact sound of his name over into Engish alphabet,

simple.

Whenever the Tetragrammaton (Shem HaMeforash) is written yud-hay-vov-hay, it is read Adonai. However, when it occurs in conjunction with the name adonai, it is read Elohim.

The Tetragrammaton is never pronounced as it is written, even in prayer. We (Jews) are taught that one who pronounces the Tetragrammaton disrespectfully is worthy of death and has no portion in the World to Come.

Originally posted by Tiza

Also, Riwka, no, I do not go by the oral traditions at all and do not care to.

And I understand be-ra#h very well and what it means in Gen. 1. One way you can understand it better is to have the NT. The NT actually enhances what is taught in the OT.

Tiza, I have always been proud to be a Jew. I have always tried to respect the religions of others. We, the Jews, have a faith which is full and complete and no need for the Christian Testament to understand the meanings of the written and oral Tora.

Please be so kind and respect this fact.


Rebekka

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka

I never said, Adam celebrated Shabbat. Adam was not able to celebrate Shabbat. He even did not know what Shabbat means

Thank you, as you can see from excerpts below, after your tangential route you have come to the point I initially made and was debating when I said that the Sabbath could be Thursday for all we know:

And nowhere in Genesis does it determine that Saturday is the 7th day…
Consequently, neither the Sabbath nor any named day is correctly accounted for..
How then can you tell me it has always been the 7th day, when in fact as you see above the last hour of the 6th day is then referred to the Sabbath?
And what did Adam and Eve have to assist them with this keen observance?...
Not a sole has told me how Adam and Eve knew to celebrate same.

.
Sabbath keeping is not a New Testament requirement and that is why you don't see the apostles mention it, nay, not even once!!!

If you can show me where the apostles (or even the Lord Jesus Himself) said that Sabbath keeping is a requirement, then I will recant. But you can't. And you know it!!!

The attempt to yoke New Testament believers with the Old Testament Sabbath is an apostasy. The true believers of Christ are yoked with His grace. The apostisized are yoked with the requirement to fulfill the law.

Which will save you: Jesus or Sabbath keeping? Here's the litmus test:
1. You can reject the Sabbath and still be saved.
2. You cannot reject Jesus and still be saved.

Anyone who says that we are damned for rejecting Sabbath keeping is teaching a false doctrine!!!



[edit on 1-2-2005 by Yxboom]

Originally posted by Yxboom
.
Sabbath keeping is not a New Testament requirement and that is why you don't see the apostles mention it, nay, not even once!!!

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

"After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. " Acts 18:1-4

"And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither." Acts 16:13

"Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down." Acts 13:13,14

"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42-44

If you can show me where the apostles (or even the Lord Jesus Himself) said that Sabbath keeping is a requirement, then I will recant. But you can't. And you know it!!!

There is nothing that anyone can do for salvation. It is a free gift that is given by grace alone. Once again you are attempting to confuse the issue.
The way we worship (follow the commandments) is what we are instructed to do in order to develop the character we will need for our intended future.

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:23,24

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

The attempt to yoke New Testament believers with the Old Testament Sabbath is an apostasy. The true believers of Christ are yoked with His grace. The apostisized are yoked with the requirement to fulfill the law.

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:12-17"





.

Hello, Rebekka:

I'm sorry that I've been calling you by your screen name, Riwka. I now realize your name is Rebekka.

I didn't get a chance to explain what I mean by word searches and studies last night. I was just exhausted last night and didn't feel like being on the computer after working on it all day. Now that I have a little time, I'll explain what I mean.

Here is how we study something that may be controversial, as some Hebrew, Greek words and certain phrases have been controversial throughout time. To do these various studies, we follow certain scriptural guidelines.

One is in 1 Thess. 5:20-22, Do not set prophecy to nothing, PUT TO THE TEST ALL THINGS, hold fast to the virtuous, abstain from the wicked.

In doing the above, one must have to sort through the good AND the bad to get to the truth.

Isa. 1:18, Come, let us reason together.... This means reasoning is used to get to the truth.

More than one witness is required, 2 Cor. 13:1; Heb. 10:28-31; John 8:12-20; Deut. 19:15-20, etc.
Oh, in John 5:30-47 it states that the father, Moses, Yahushua are witnesses as well as the Scriptures and the works.
Isa. 34:16, Search from the book of Yahweh and read. Not one of these (points) misses, each not missing her mate.
Meaning, at least two witnesses required. Then also compare Isa. 28:9-10, line upon line, precept upon precept, etc.
All of these things protects us from isolating one verse and building an entire doctrine upon it. There are many religions in this world and this is exactly why. This is a provision that Yahweh made to protect us from human error and also the lying pen of the scribes. Jer. 8:8.

Now, here is our format on how we study various difficult words and phrases and controversial words and phrases.

First off, we might spend several weeks on one particular word or phrase if it's got a lot of history on it and many different writings. Obviously we don't do this on every word or we'd never get anywhere. But be-ra#h was one such word that we spent a good deal of time on.

To start with, we have the definitions from several Heb. lexicons. Every study should start with a definition, even in school. Then we'll look at the Greek translation of that word from the LXX and various Greek lexicon definitions.

Next we'll go through many Scriptures and observe ways this certain word or phrase is used and the context that it's used in.

Usually the next thing that we do is look at various ancient writings on a particular word or phrase to see what those people's mindsets were. Take the Jewish Priest, Josephus, for example, who BTW used the Temple scrolls, which the MT is not a Temple scroll at all. It's not the best text, but it is what we have, anyway. We'll see what Josephus has to say, if anything. Same with Philo and other writers. We look at various ancient Jewish writings and ancient Christian writings and while many don't agree with each other, at least one gets an idea of why they're saying what they're saying. We'll look at the Book of Enoch, Jubilees, Book of Yasher if any of these apply to what we're researching. At times we've looked into the Targum Onqelos, DSS, Syriac, Pe#ta, etc., whatever is out there on that specific subject. These are just a few things that pop in my head right now. Oh, lots of ancient historians too.

But anyway, by the time you get to the end of this particular study, you pretty well know what the ancients thought about it. It really does help you gain an understanding. Then most importantly, we ask the Scriptures, carefully harmonizing and not putting human interpretations into it.

Tiza

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

And nowhere in Genesis does it determine that Saturday is the 7th day…
Consequently, neither the Sabbath nor any named day is correctly accounted for..
How then can you tell me it has always been the 7th day, when in fact as you see above the last hour of the 6th day is then referred to the Sabbath?
And what did Adam and Eve have to assist them with this keen observance?...
Not a sole has told me how Adam and Eve knew to celebrate same.

The Day that follows yom Schischi (day 6) is Shabbat Shmot (Exodus) 20:8-11 ,it starts in the evening , right after sunset.

Adam, he was no jew. G'd did not ask him to keep Shabbat.

G'd told the Jews to keep Shabbat Shmot (Exodus) 31:12-17

whereever we live. Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:3

He told us to observe Shabbat Shemot (Exodus) 31:17

how to keep it Dvarim (Deuteronomy) 12-15,

not kindle a fire Shemot (Exodus) 35:2-3

Talmud enumerates the 39 categories of forbidden Melachot (work) during Shabbat
(Talmud, Shabbat 73a


Rebekka

Originally posted by Tiza

Here is how we study something that may be controversial, as some Hebrew, Greek words and certain phrases have been controversial throughout time.

Sounds interesting........but only if is not the Tora, given by G'd.


Since there is no greek word within the written or oral Tora, Jews do not have any such controversions.


Rebekka

Rebekka:

The LXX "the seventy" (some 72) was translated by Hellenistic Jews. Actually the Torah is very accurate. Grant you that Greek is not a living language like Hebrew is, but nonetheless, it helps give us another opinion.

BTW, did you know that pre-Christian copies of the LXX has been found (just pages; not a complete text) with the sacred name Yahweh written in Hebrew-Aramaic and also Paleo-Hebrew? I find that very interesting too!

Yes, the way we study is interesting. It's nice to go back mentally and place your mind in a certain time frame to see what others have said. I do love ancient history.

BTW, do you happen to know how to read 15th century C.E. Hebrew? I have a document that I need read, and there's some interesting characters, probably circumlocutions.

Thanks,
Tiza

.
I met a Seventh-day Adventist who said that he will receive a chip in his right hand or in his forehead. When I asked him why, he said that it is not the Mark of the Beast.

He said that worshipping on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast.

But I don't believe that.

Jesus is enough.
.

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Yxboom]