Vulcans Borgs and Earthlings

I had drinks with a professor, a great philosopher and what i believe a kind hearted man.. We discussed Star Trek, he is a trekkie and i dont know if i am, but ive seen every episode, even the fan-made. We discussed the movie First Contact, and he asked;" Do you think Earth would do better under the influence of the Borgs or the influence of Vulcans. The Vulcans made contact under the rules of their Prime directive, while the Borg forced theirs." I thought for a while, and i know the portraying of the Borgs are evil, but i stripped away the ideals of good an evil and only looked at their solution.
So i said;" The Federation is the outcome, and the Galaxy looked at the earthlings as primitive. Both offer a solution, but the best solution is to compromise. They are similar both the Vulcans and the Borgs, no emotions. I believe earthlings can offer creativity, Vulcans and especially the Borgs can not. "
" I believe the problem are the ideals, not the solution. Let the Borgs influence their lives, and when the earthlings reach maturity, let them decide."
I looked at the professor, and i said;" I really dont know, what do you think? "

The professor said;" I believe no one should interfere "

a reply to: tikbalang

At least the Borg assimilate, if we were in their position, flying around in a cube, visiting other worlds and civilisations i think, as a species we would Kill rather than Assimilate.

The Borg are nice as compared to us (current tense, perhaps we may learn in the future)

CbG

a reply to: tikbalang

I lived in the Philippines for over 15 years are you claiming to be a tikbalang, or just using the name for the names sake?

Filipino's believe that just to mention its name is to call it forth.

Beware of folklore sometimes it comes back to prove itself real.

I have had the tribal people of the Batak Tribe tell me stories of seeing it.

Of course these same people wondered as I tried to resuscitate a child with mouth to mouth why I was trying o blow up the child like a balloon. I had to explain it was a technique used in saving lives.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I know that people have a tendency to believe anything

a reply to: tikbalang

I looked at the professor, and i said;" I really dont know, what do you think? "

The professor said;" I believe no one should interfere "

The original Trek series "non interference protocols". They violated them all the time. Like rules of engagement (ROE) during war.

Is it for our benefit they pretend to have rules and protocols? Deceptive it seems to keep their interference protocols ongoing.

Grrr...

The concept itself is noble, stems from the Constitution (whats that) where it states, free trade and good relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none.

Why people split Europe in the first place, to get away form endless war, debt, poverty and disease.

We're slipping back to futures past.

If you've seen all the episodes, you are probably a trekkie

Would earth have been better off being assimilated? Interesting question. At first I was like heck no. But thinking for a minute about the "ideals" gave me pause. Still say no, based on losing individuality etc, but to strive for perfection and have a "society" that functions at near %100 efficiency is an interesting thought. What is the Borg endgame? Assimilate the entire universe...then what? What do they do when not assimilating? They would just sit there and do nothing. And after what Janeway did to them, it might take a while!!!

a reply to: tikbalang

The Borg are very much based on the old cold war view of an aggressive expansionist communist superstate, every individual is part of the whole and is nothing more than a drone, this was added to later by the invention and addition of the borg queen whom was supposed to be a unifying and directing presence in the hive.

Not the first time Star Trek explored communism in a futuristic world as the Binars a race of cyborg's within the federation are similar but do not have the drive to assimilated other's.

In part the Borg a later invention were probably invented to distance the new Star Trek from the veiled semi socialist ideology's (with more personal freedom and a Utopian society threatened on all sides by aggressive aliens) of the original series, a series which of course added to the modern jargon term's such as Red Alert and also had the first television kiss between a black actress and a white actor so positioned itself very much against the social racial divide and stereotyping that was still prevalent (And sadly still is today) in the US of the time.

Though science fiction it was a seminal and important social catalyst as it was so very popular among the younger and often also more intelligent age group of the time.

As for the Vulcan's there place and lore has also changed since the early day's of the Star Trek series culminating in a rewriting of Star Trek history as shown in the film first contact but based on that they took a not so hand's off but custodial approach to helping the human race to develop as we had developed the mean's by which we were then able to step on there toes and were in what they regarded as there area of the galaxy, how they went from being the main power to a bit player in that region was explained in the series Enterprise with the founding of the federation which is supposed to be a multi species pooling if resources and technology's.

Between the two only the Vulcan's were Benign if condescending and certain of there own superiority, the Borg's structure on the other hand is a totally oppressive regime that purges all personal expression and imprison's the mind - or expand's it dependent upon your own opinion and so starved of original thought they instead assimilate other's to bring them and there new originality into there own single mind before having to move on to another race/culture in order to feed this appetite for new knowledge and experience which there single shared mind has denited them by oppressing or swamping away any individuality along with any original thought and inventiveness that are born of that individuality, nevertheless the Borg see themselves as good guy's and believe they are elevating those they assimilate.

Human's are hinted at as becoming something else in the distant future in several episodes of all series, the Q another utopian society of almost god like being's fear or envy human's (or what they or rather the Federation become's) of the future yet the series is also filled with allegorical story's about lost civilization's such as the Next Generation's T'Kon empire a civilization that was once almost god like with the ability to move stars and planet's but with the exception of Sentinal a long survivor whom has been dormant until the Enterprise and an early encounter with the Ferengi have a tussel over his dormant outpost.

The Ferengi are a good example of an Analogy of the modern Corporate world, profit is life and they would sell you there own mother, they are inherently dishonest but bound by an aggressive corporate manual called the Rule's of Acquisition which is venerated as an almost religious text among them, to make there interaction more common they were later toned down into an almost clown like race of small time business men in Deep Space 9 but originally were an aggressive and highly developed culture that would have given the romulan's, klingon's or even the federation a run for there money.

Through out the series though the theme of a culture that has banished human hunger and poverty is kept a constant and human population is not controlled as the federation is based not only on inter species interaction's but also upon Federation Colonisation and even terraforming (earth forming - making earth like) of suitable world's.

The Borg, Aggressive Communist Superstate with Totalitarian rule like an internet and thought police in your head.

The Vulcan's a group of concerned professor's and intellectual's whom strive to shape those that they see as lesser and in need of there guidance, no real world parallel though several tenuous one's could be constructed.

The Ferengi - Mad Corporation's.

The Klingon's, originally the old series take on a fear of mongol type invaders and marauders from the east also founded in a lack of understanding based view of the old soviet union but later morphed into lovable head banging nut cases whom eat bowl's of life worm's and keep pet pig's called targ, oh and by that point they do not value personal hygiene and stink as well.

The Romulan's, what the Vulcan's could have been had they been aggressive but of course they also had to be intellectually inferior to the Vulcan's or we would never have stood a chance.
Name was taken from the Roman legend's of Romulus and Remus (Remus a later character as well) the founders of Rome, this also helped to shape them as a Roman empire type space faring species but only in so far as they have a senet etc.

Other lesser races also frequent the series and each encounter has a moral tale, often social or totalitarian oppression of a minority is a factor, bigotry, racism and economic inequality's are challenged and studied in a round about fashion in many of the episode's and it was this moral thread and vein that made so many of the original Star Trek story's so pertinent, something I feel has been lost in the Reboot movie's.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Aside from Q you forgot The Traveler in NextGen.

A seemly nicer version of what we could become. While I too have seen all the ST episodes it was Babylon 5 that made more sense to me. Well, that & Stargate & Firefly. If Roddenberry was trying to make analogies with the Klingons etc...he underestimated us already being fed that from Lord of the Rings, Rocky & Bullwinkle! LOL!!!

Most of us kids were more fascinated with the tech/geek/toys.
Who didn't want a Tricorder???

Altho to this day I'm leery of wearing a red shirt cause they always died first...heeheehee!

originally posted by: corblimeyguvnor
a reply to: tikbalang

At least the Borg assimilate, if we were in their position, flying around in a cube, visiting other worlds and civilisations i think, as a species we would Kill rather than Assimilate.

The Borg are nice as compared to us (current tense, perhaps we may learn in the future)

CbG

I know it's just fiction, but the Borg only assimilate once thousands are killed during the resistance. So, the Borg do destroy thousands of individuals choosing to keep their identity. Destroy the will to fight. And destroy all identity. Like conquering a race, the victorious forcing their racial identity on the conquered, and breeding out the blood line of the conquered. Might want to rethink your answer. The Borg kill the soul and leave a shell.

I like the Dune universe with the difference schools that allow persons to excel in a specific direction suitable to one's abilities. To be a mentat! I know it's fiction. But Dune really explores human potential!

a reply to: Caver78

Yes he was a very mysterious character, possibly also a traveler in time but maybe far beyond even the Q, that was the one were they went all quantum mind and reality being manipulated by thought on us with Wesley Crusher being the promising human that had the traveler intrigued.

He was no spock but I still think DATA was one of the best character's, followed closely by seven of nine (though of course she won hand's down on look's).

Phaser, the tricorder though would be a fascinating tool, the best new gadget was from Guardian's of the Galaxy were the lead character is searching on a deserted planet using a device that can replay echoes of the past and project them as image's.

Stargate the Sarcophagus, even if only used once because of it's addictive property's but of course they had to kill off characters so it seldom made an appearance and of course the Stargate itself sadly stargate universe could have been immensely better but was left off unfinished and stargate atlantis had even more potential but likewise was cut short and an entire series that was meant to be was never produced.

a reply to: neutronflux

It had far more potential than it's author intended, Herbert's writing style was a little off but he was a great visionary and painted a huge tapestry of intrigue and character's across a vast empire set in an extremely distant and very alien future, the idea of the human's overthrowing the machine's was a pertinent one as well but to do so they required the spice and of course were no longer a single race but many race's with the pilot's of the spacing guild having become something else entirely (similar to that episode with the Traveler in star trek TNG they moved space and time with there mind's) and then the Beni Geserit and the Mentat forming both the real power behind the houses and there human computers.

I did like the later book's as well but think there may have been a ghost writer as well as co writer at work as there style changed considerably from his earlier novel's though the world remained contiguous and recognizable, the last I read was were the emperor finally died and the sand trout were released from his body each with all his memory's, he of course had become the least human of all of them.

Asimov was a great author as well, his foundation novel's though dated are still excellent.

Personally I enjoyed Julian May's science fiction novels about time travelling human's who find a gateway to the past and how it unfolds as the story progresses, they find out that they are not alone when they get there and it get's better from there.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: LABTECH767

Data's schtick got a little old after awhile.
It'd been covered in Asimov's books previous and others, so you saw it coming at you like a train.

Sadly they didn't do more with the Traveler storyline.

Dune was great! The movie sucked tho.

Wasn't a big fan of Atlantis, but Farscape was good. All of the sy-fy has elements in what I assume Darpa is working on.
It's interesting you mentioned the Beni Desert as that's the part that we have the most difficulty with in understanding that component is necessary.

Pardon me for being a little rusty with the classic sci-fy as it's been ages since I read it.

a reply to: Caver78

Probably the wierdest sci fi book I read was called Man of Two World's by frank herbert, basically a story about an alien drug addict (Addicted to Basil which can only be found on earth), from an alien race whom created reality but no one know's who created the earth with it's illicit Basil, very funny.

Then there were some great idea's (if you can look past his cult and strange squirrel fetish thing) in L'Ron hubbard's early sci fi novel's, they were just pulp fiction as he was always a B grade author but still fun to read.