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originally posted by: Aazadan
Sadly, you're not going to get the quality responses deserving of your post.
I want to point out though that you missed one part of the economic argument. Many illegals come here and send money home taking advantage of the difference in the value of currencies. This is true of South/Central Americans that work the fields, and it's true of the Asians (an even bigger demographic) who are sending money to China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so on.
What would cost a farmer $25/hour to give to a citizen (and in fact, people have proven that $25/hour is not enough to get substantial numbers into working agriculture), an illegal can live humbly in a 1 bedroom apartment with a couple other illegals in the US, send enough home to give their families a $75/hour lifestyle, and even visit home from time to time in the off season... while costing the farmer just $7/hour. In some countries the advantage from converting currencies between different economic zones is even larger.
This is the problem with the economic argument. Sure we could kick out the illegals, give our citizens $30/hour jobs (maybe even higher), and raise the cost of food to compensate but we also import food and that imported food doesn't have our labor costs attached to it. We could fix this with tariff's but that's only part of the issue. We also export food... a lot of food, and we would have to attach our labor costs to that as well which is an issue that we can't tariff our way out of, people simply won't buy the product.
So in the end, if we kick out the illegals we also have to be willing to be willing to give up our second most valuable export (next to oil), we have to destroy a whole bunch of trade deals (and the attached benefits we get for those deals), and we have to be willing to accept much higher food prices.
That is a lot to ask. How are our farmers going to react when they're only able to produce half as much produce per year because the government refuses to sign trade deals that open the doors to them producing at full capacity? How would you feel if the government imposed rules on your industry that halved the amount of product your company can sell?
Lastly, if you did the math on this, it means we create a bunch of $60k/year agriculture jobs but our median wage if $52k. That means there's going to be a lot of people bringing in $15k-$40k per year who will suddenly have to absorb exorbitant increases on the price of food. That will lead to a lot of instability, and ultimately backdoor more government farm subsidies in the form of food stamps. This is already a problem where we're effectively paying farmers to not grow food, such a change would multiply this problem by several times, both directly (because we're reducing what farmers can grow and sell) and indirectly in giving people money to buy food.
However, the costs you are talking about below would be at least partially offset by keeping this money in the US. Lets take the moderate estimate of 11 million illegals in the US. If most of them are sending money home, that could be Billions of dollars a year.
originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Humans have migrated since before we have written words, there will never be a stop to people moving to a different part of the world, people act like they invented this illegal immigration crap, the more walls we build between each other the more people will break them down.
originally posted by: Grambler
I agree this is a problem. However, the costs you are talking about below would be at least partially offset by keeping this money in the US. Lets take the moderate estimate of 11 million illegals in the US. If most of them are sending money home, that could be Billions of dollars a year. This is money that could be kept in the states.
I think you are massively overestimating how much we would have to pay people to do these jobs. I honestly hardly know anyone that makes close to $30 an hour, this seems like an extremely high wage. I think the wage would be at least half of that to get people interested in the work. And here is the thing, markets force people to innovate. The farm land in the US wouldn't just dry up. These farmers would find ways of balancing the wage increase while still being competitive in the market. This means that free trade wouldn't necessarily have to be given up.
You are also assuming that illegal immigrants make up the majority of the agricultural sector, and I don't know if that is true. In addition, we already have subsidies on many agricultural products, and we haven't seen the disaster you speak of. Another thing is countries need food, and despite what we do with trade deals, there will always be a market for our farmers.
Even if all of what you say is true, it is still immoral. To allow the abuse of these illegals for economic benefit is not a moral position. Again, if someone wants to make that argument, I am fine with it, but I will not let them accuse people who want to deport illegals as somehow being less moral.
originally posted by: Grambler
These workers are unique in that they do not have the bargaining power of an average legal worker. A legal worker can say if I don't like the wage, I will go else where. Illegals can't really say that, because the businesses own the monopoly of where the can work. This destroys free market principals, and forces these illegals to live in poverty. So in a way they are forced to take these jobs, or starve or leave.
This was answered in my first post, but here is the short version. One, maybe they used all of their resources to get here, so they can't leave. Second, many of them may still be holding out hope for becoming citizens or their wage increasing.
All of your points here prove the selfish nature of of the economic argument. They aren't forced to work, they can leave if they want. Again, you are inadvertently legitimizing several arguments that the liberals hate.
Woman in an abusive relationship? She could leave if she wanted.
Poor person living in a ghetto? You could leave if you wanted.
But that was answered above, paying these illegals a fair wage proves that Americans would be willing to do the job and could, is unfair to people waiting to be legal immigrants, and would lead to an incredible increase in the amount of illegals trying to get here and get those benefits. It also eliminates any argument you could make as to why illegals benefit the economy.
originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: neveroddoreven99
As productivity goes up so did workers wages, well til 1979. The problem is the massive productivity gains since have been diverted to the 1%. Do 5 minutes of research, this may very well be one major reason we are where we are.
originally posted by: kaylaluv
Illegals have been coming here for many, many years. The ones who are here communicate and send money back to the ones still in Mexico. Everyone there is well aware of what they are going to be paid here. There are no surprises for them once they get here.
It is estimated that 17,000 to 19,0001 foreign nationals are trafficked into the United States each year. Trafficking is the recruitment and possible transport of persons within or across boundaries by force, fraud, or deception for the purpose of exploiting them economically. Victims are lured with false promises of good jobs and better lives, and then forced to work under brutal and inhuman conditions. Victims of trafficking are exploited for purposes of commercial sex, including prostitution, stripping, pornography live-sex shows and other acts. However, trafficking also takes place as labor exploitation, including domestic servitude, sweatshop factories, agricultural work and more. After drug dealing, human trafficking is tied with the illegal arms industry as the second largest criminal industry in the world today, and it is the fastest growing.
If they want to go back so bad, all they have to do is turn themselves in. They get deported at no cost to themselves. As for holding out hope, again, they have been doing this for a long time. They know what the reality is. My main point was that you are incorrect to compare them to slaves. Totally different situation.
Comparing the psychological damage done to a woman in an abusive relationship to someone coming here to make a living is pretty disingenuous.
Where is a poor person in a ghetto supposed to go to make more money? Mexico??? At least in the ghetto there is running water and toilets that actually flush. People who come from the poorest parts of Mexico think they're living the high life when they get to the ghetto.
The illegal situation as it is currently DOES benefit the economy. It also benefits the illegals, as they now have money to help their families, where they didn't before. I was just saying I could handle the hit to the economy - but not everyone will be able to.
originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Grambler
Human trafficking is a completely different topic than the undocumented immigrant topic - way to move the goal posts there.
Sending them back to Mexico is making them suffer a lot worse just so we don't have to see them in our cities and neighborhoods. They keep coming here because it is better for them and their families than it is there. That is a fact.