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ELF Seeks to overthrow the World Governments

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posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
No, you can't quantify human suffering. It is just not possible because there is no measure between people. I am not talking about between situations to the same person.


I'm afraid we must diagree, I can. Anybody who would feel the same loss and suffering from the vandalism of their property, that they would from the loss of a loved one, is grossly materialistic, and does not get the same level of sympathy from me. If you choose not to make a distinction between life and material goods, that's you. From past discussions we have had, I would think you would have easily made that distinction. Not in any way to condone the vandalism and lack of civil behavior on the parts of these extremely misguided activists, but I can and will not place human life on the same level as property.



In any case, any group that seeks to murder others for any reason are just a stone throw away from being successful. Once they are they move into the same category.


Have these groups stated they seek to murder? If so I missed it, and if that's the case, and it's not just a childish pompous threat made by an individual who affiliates themself with one of these groups, who would never actually have the balls to act, then I would agree. But there are many groups in this country, gangs, skinheads, mafia, etc. who commit murders and violence daily, yet they are not being equated to Al Queda by the author of this thread like these activists, who have not actually committed any acts of violence on another person. So we should start labeling those groups as terrorist threats long before these activist groups.




posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
I'm afraid we must diagree, I can. Anybody who would feel the same loss and suffering from the vandalism of their property, that they would from the loss of a loved one, is grossly materialistic, and does not get the same level of sympathy from me. If you choose not to make a distinction between life and material goods, that's you. From past discussions we have had, I would think you would have easily made that distinction. Not in any way to condone the vandalism and lack of civil behavior on the parts of these extremely misguided activists, but I can and will not place human life on the same level as property. .


ok, to quote myself again (because I think I phrased it pretty easily):

"No, you can't quantify human suffering. It is just not possible because there is no measure between people. I am not talking about between situations to the same person"


Originally posted by 27jd
Have these groups stated they seek to murder? If so I missed it, and if that's the case, and it's not just a childish pompous threat made by an individual who affiliates themself with one of these groups, who would never actually have the balls to act, then I would agree. But there are many groups in this country, gangs, skinheads, mafia, etc. who commit murders and violence daily, yet they are not being equated to Al Queda by the author of this thread like these activists, who have not actually committed any acts of violence on another person. So we should start labeling those groups as terrorist threats long before these activist groups.


Do they have the desire? Yes. Have they? I don't know. But I am not condemning anyone. Because criminals and murderers have not been addressed does not negate their actions over, in lieu of, or measured against activists.

There are many that are good and some that are bad.



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Comments removed after reviewing above post.

[edit on 21/1/2005 by gowain]

[edit on 21/1/2005 by gowain]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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The thing is gowain the laws protect the animal torturers and not the animals...

When the laws stop animals being treated like this; (warning graphic pics)

www.all-creatures.org...

Then the ALF will no longer be nescessary....

Animals can't speak for themselves, so someone has to.



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
ok, to quote myself again (because I think I phrased it pretty easily):

"No, you can't quantify human suffering. It is just not possible because there is no measure between people.


Maybe I'm a moron or something, but to me the way you phrased it appears as if you are saying there is no measure of suffering, which is entirely false, again I ask, would you feel the same sense of sorrow and loss if you lost somebody close to you as you would if somebody set your car on fire?

The verb "quantify" has 2 senses.

1. quantify -- use as a quantifier; in logic
2. quantify, measure -- express as a number or measure or quantity; "Can you quantify your results?"

Again I will say, for those who think I'm defending arsonists and vandals, I do not condone their actions, if they commit those kinds of crimes they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm just saying to waste security and intelligence resources that could be focused on real threats, and to broaden the government's ability to brand anybody and everybody a terrorist, is lunacy. And there are different levels of suffering, is there anybody else reading this who disagrees?



I am not talking about between situations to the same person"


Sorry man, but this makes no sense to me, perhaps you could dumb it down a little for me. Does this make sense to anybody else? I really wanna know because maybe I'm just stupid, or I just need to cut down on the herb
. I think you are saying that in order to have an exact measure of suffering you would have to gauge it by subjecting the same person to different tragedies, and measuring their sorrow somehow. And what I'm saying is, if you subject everybody to different tragedies, the death of a truly loved one will weigh in far heavier than the loss or destruction of property, across the board.




Do they have the desire? Yes.


How do you know?



Have they? I don't know.


I'm sure the author of this thread would have advised us if they have, and with great enthusiasm.



Because criminals and murderers have not been addressed does not negate their actions over, in lieu of, or measured against activists.


You lost me on this one too. ME----->




There are many that are good and some that are bad.


I think that can be said for any group in society.







[edit on 22-1-2005 by 27jd]



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 04:30 AM
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I dont see how vandalism is terrorism, is it because it inspires terror? if thats the case then someone thats so fat and ugly they inspire terror are also going to be called terrorist?

a dog even tho on the leash is so big and scary inspires terror amoung those who pass by the yard is going to have the owner wanted for terrorism also?

it seems terrorism is the overused word which has become to general unfortunatly its a "buzz word" now and those of the pack animal mentally are going to lable and react to as intended.
and even sader the majority of the poeple have this primitive mentallity



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 04:59 AM
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ELF and ALF have gone far beyond just a little vandalism. Both have become increasingly violent. They are now advocating the use of "guns" or "any means necessary" to fullfil thier insanity.

Terrorising old women, grave-robbing, fire bombing homes and other property, and yes fire bombing SUV's is TERRORISM.

My "professional" opinion is they are just punks trying to impress some "slut" they "hang" with. They care noting for the "environment" nor do they really know the real harm they are doing to it. I think Marine recon teams is a good way to stop these "children".



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 07:42 AM
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let me just clarify :

A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

An Activist is a person who uses vigorous campaigning to bring about political or social change.

I think you can see which side of the line these supposedly morally and intellectually superior individuals lie. These idiots aren’t morally capable to crack an egg to make an omelet never mind important social decisions.

They are moral terrorists as opposed to the maniac ones you have in the middle east.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Vanguard]



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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By the way, yes you can quantify human suffering.

killing hundreds of schoolchildren in a gymnasium with explosives and then shooting in the back those that escaped even on the individual level is far more human suffering than setting a few fully insured SUVs or ski lofts on fire.

I again repeat myself, to put these pyro-punks that talk no tougher than some talk radio hosts have anywhere on the same level as the stone killers that perpetrated mass murder in Beslan, Madrid, New York City, Washington, Karbala, Baghdad, Mosul, Moscow, al-Khobar, Riyadh, Kabul, and Nairobi is an insult to the suffering endured by the victims of those massacres.



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Agreed these maniac islamic fundamentalists are pushing the terrorist evelope. Thats why i made the distiction of moral and maniac terrorists.



posted on Jan, 22 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
ELF and ALF have gone far beyond just a little vandalism. Both have become increasingly violent. They are now advocating the use of "guns" or "any means necessary" to fullfil thier insanity.


Who is advocating the use of guns? Are they officially advocating it as a whole? Or are there a few idiots talking out there @sses to look tough for a TV camera? And it's not insanity as much as obsession, they're obsessed with their cause and get themselves so worked up and angry, they resort to these tactics because they feel they have no other means of combating what they see as a great injustice, in a way they're right, not in their actions, but the fact that there is nothing they can do to change how big corporations operate. How can a "former liberal" psychology professor not understand the mindset of these misguided activists?



Terrorising old women, grave-robbing, fire bombing homes and other property, and yes fire bombing SUV's is TERRORISM.


Playing loud music terrorizes old women. They fire bomb newly built, vacant houses, which is wrong but don't try and make it seem that they fire bomb occupied homes, unless you can present a documented case. Grave-robbing is VERY wrong and I'm sure it is not a regular occurence, and those who have done it should have the book thrown at them, but it's still not murder, already dead. And fire bombing SUV's is not terrorism, it's arson, terrorism is the threat of bodily harm, I don't know about you, but if my car was set on fire I would likely be enraged, but not terrified. If I was tied up waiting to have my head slowly sawed off by a small fishing knife, I would feel terror. There is a profound difference.



My "professional" opinion is they are just punks trying to impress some "slut" they "hang" with. They care noting for the "environment" nor do they really know the real harm they are doing to it.


This "professional" opinon seems more like it was made by a clueless, backwoods redneck than a "former liberal" psychology professor who's "been there, done that". They absolutely believe what they are doing is right, and again, they are obsessed with their cause. Punks trying to impress "sluts" they "hang" with (and nobody says "hangs with" anymore), buy those annoying lowered Hondas and drive like bats out of hell around the city, there's not a whole lot of "sluts" that are impressed by hyper-activist hippies these days. Try back in the 60's.



I think Marine recon teams is a good way to stop these "children".


Nice. A "professional" psychologist who believes we should use our already stretched too thin Marines to kill American kids. As a psychologist, do you fail to realize you are suffering to some degree from delusional paranoia? You say these groups "seek to overthrow the world governments", that statement speaks for itself. Do you really think, even if that was their aim, they would have ANY level of success when REAL, well-equipped, murderous terrorists are trying and failing miserably?



[edit on 22-1-2005 by 27jd]



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