The Wall and Deportations, Something we arent Asking and They aren't Addressing

originally posted by: pl3bscheese

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I can fix the illegal issue much cheaper. No wall needed.
Just make it illegal to hire them. Anybody employing someone without the proper paperwork is fined $10k.
Get caught twice, 5 years in prison.
Shouldn't take much to iron out the details.

It is illegal to hire them. This law has as much effect as the law against jay walking.

Are people really this naive?

What is the penalty for employing illegals? Obviously it needs to be stiffer and enforced.
As far as jaw walking, I saw a sign downtown that said 200 fine, I didn't see any jaywalkers.

You are a criminal, that feels safe enough to sign up for a government benefits, the laws are meaningless. Without laws, we don't have a society.

On the flip side, once you have a president who will enforce the laws, do you really think that the criminals will stay where they are registered? There will be millions of self-deportations.

The average criminal Mexican in America, does not have a high school degree and doesn't have the best command of English. How do you think that they are NOT taking more then they are "giving back" so you can switch the money from benefits to enforcement and actually save money, now and even more in the future.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Like I said it takes money to enforce all the laws and catch everyone. Peoples instincts are rooted in survival. They hide they bolt others lie for them or hide them. This has been going on forever.

Where is the money??? Not from reduced taxes. That usually buys less not more.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: Sillyolme

Like I said, enforce the law.
Big fines the first time, prison the second.

Then orange juice will be $12 a gallon. Do you want this job?

Not to mention the Mexican tequila to go in it ! !

originally posted by: Sillyolme

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: Sillyolme

Like I said, enforce the law.
Big fines the first time, prison the second.

Then orange juice will be $12 a gallon. Do you want this job?

Not to mention the Mexican tequila to go in it ! !

Oh damn, we do not want to upset Mexico enough so they put a huge tarrif on tequila on top of that.

a reply to: ezramullins

Trust me. It would ruin our economy. You think things are bad now. Just wait until everything triples in cost.

It's not gonna happen anyway. The large corporations who hire these people cheap are going to work on their congress rep, and the laws about hiring illegals won't be enforced any more than they are now.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ezramullins

Trust me. It would ruin our economy. You think things are bad now. Just wait until everything triples in cost.

It's not gonna happen anyway. The large corporations who hire these people cheap are going to work on their congress rep, and the laws about hiring illegals won't be enforced any more than they are now.

Trump can't and won't enforce anti illegal hiring by corporations that profit from cheap labor, especially agribusiness. He just won't have the power. Congress will not allow it. Their first allegiance is to the corporate oligarchy not orange politicians.

And there will be no wall to stem the tide of cheap labor. Americas is addicted to cheap labor and that's not going to change.

It's called capitalism and free enterprise. America is about profit first and foremost. It's our economic bed and we have to lay in it.

Trump says there will be no amnesty, but he will flip flop on that as well.

a reply to: onehuman

If Trump manages to win the election, I'd bet dollars to donuts that we will immediately begin to see a mass exodus of illegals via self-deportation, just like we saw here in Arizona after passing sanctions against employers.

Illegal immigrants leaving Arizona

Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.

For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect Jan. 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

And by all appearances, it's starting to work.

This law was challenged by both the DOJ and the Chamber of Commerce and was ultimately upheld by the Supreme Court.

Of course not all illegals will take it upon themselves to self-deport, but many will.... especially if/when they know the laws are actually being enforced.

Here's a scholarly paper on legal enforcement and self-deportation:

Attrition through Enforcement: A Rational Approach to Illegal Immigration

a reply to: reldra

I K R ! !

a reply to: onehuman

Congratulations for thinking! I really don't understand how thinking human beings can think this is a viable option, considering the cost, red tape and time involved. There's also land disputes (much of the land is owned by citizens, including Native Americans, who refuse to sell), environmental concerns (endangered wildlife and river flood zones) and geographical concerns, all of which would add to the cost.

This video explains how much JUST the material will cost - for a 20' wall - and how long it will take. $10 Billion and at least 4 years. That's JUST for the job. If you take all the red tape, lawsuits and planning into consideration, it could be 8 years or more. That $10 Billion doesn't include labor, vast land purchases, lawsuits and upkeep of the wall. And WE will be paying for this wall with INCREASED taxes. Mexico is under no obligation to do so, and has outright refused.

Video

Trump is all talk. He and the supporters of this wall are NOT thinking at all. They're operating from an emotional position, with little logic and pragmatism evident.

a reply to: onehuman

Hmm ok. Lets just say he does magically get the wall built over night and now it is time to round up 11 million people to move back across the border. Even if it is half the count or only 5 million, what kind of man power is going to be required to do this? Not only that, just exactly how are you going to send them all back, and most importantly, On Who's Dime???

Yah pretty much a bogus claim. People without legal status run when the INS show up. Unless you surround a whole neighborhood wth swat and dogs then search every room, every closet and crawl space.

Ever see Schindler's List? Great scene. Not the elimination, the first part, the search. Imagine cordoning off LA and doing this kind of thing?

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I can fix the illegal issue much cheaper. No wall needed.
Just make it illegal to hire them. Anybody employing someone without the proper paperwork is fined $10k.
Get caught twice, 5 years in prison.
Shouldn't take much to iron out the details.

Well who would be left to donate to the two parties then?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The more I study the Trump phenomenon; the more I realize it's not about illegal immigration, the wall or "making America great again" ... it's about demonizing and scapegoating an entire class of people for an entirely other reason.

God I hope I'm just being paranoid but it scares the **** out of me.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Trump and the supporters of this wall are NOT thinking at all. They're operating from an emotional position, with little logic and pragmatism evident.

Actually, I see quite a bit of emotion on both sides.

Yes, a wall will be expensive. Yes, a wall will take time to build. Yes, there will be logistics problems that must be addressed. But Donald Trump does this for a living. He builds things; that's what he does. And his record shows a propensity for coming in under budget and ahead of schedule.

Just because one person can't do a thing, it is not a forgone conclusion that no person can do a thing.

As to the cost: what is the cost of doing nothing? As I see it, the cost is the sovereignty of the country. No other country in the world has the devil-may-care attitude we do about borders. The result is an influx of a dangerous criminal segment, the influx of massive amounts of dangerous recreational drugs (heroin), and the influx of untraceable people who survive in the shadows of society by working for slave wages, in violation of our laws.

That's a pretty hefty cost: housing, food, and medical care for prisoners, additional police to combat higher crime rates, medical costs for addicts, social services for those who make so little, and that's only the direct costs. Indirect (social) costs include the increased crime rates, loss of jobs, increased poverty, and loss of lives due to drug abuse.

I do feel for the majority of illegal immigrants; most are just looking for a better life. I support immigration reform avidly. But I will withhold that support until there is a reasonable method of border control in place. As I said before, it's like herding cats otherwise. And without some method of ensuring otherwise, undesirables will come in along with that majority.

We tried enhanced border security... we tried improving the laws against hiring illegal workers. All attempts have failed to slow the problem, primarily due to action and inaction by the very people who are now decrying the wall idea. These actions to water down solutions have led to the realization that the only real solution is an impenetrable wall.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Nothing is going to happen overnight. If Trump wins, it will take a year at least to construct it, probably two more to finalize all the details. Deporting citizens will do no good without a wall of some kind in place. It's too much like herding cats.

If it took a year to construct that wall, it would be a pretty shoddy wall. Though that IS something I'd expect from Trump knowing his business history.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

For a job of this kind, you want multiple crews working simultaneously. You establish a timeline, estimate how much a crew can construct in that timeline, divide the total workload into segments that can be completed timely, and hire the appropriate number of crews.

Logistics plays into this as well, managing coordination between crews. I have seen a house go up in a week, from the first shovel breaking dirt to locking the door and walking away. It just takes coordination.

It's done all the time.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Krazysh0t

For a job of this kind, you want multiple crews working simultaneously. You establish a timeline, estimate how much a crew can construct in that timeline, divide the total workload into segments that can be completed timely, and hire the appropriate number of crews.

Yeah and doing that alone would probably take a year by itself. Especially considering the speed that the government operates.

Logistics plays into this as well, managing coordination between crews. I have seen a house go up in a week, from the first shovel breaking dirt to locking the door and walking away. It just takes coordination.

It's done all the time.

TheRedneck

Yeah, by private companies. This is the government we are talking about. Something riddled with bureaucracy, mismanagement, and no profit drive.

ALSO comparing local constructions projects to literally the biggest construction project this country will have ever undertaken like they are comparable situations is laughable. You'd have better luck comparing the length of time it took to make things like the Erie Cancel or Mount Rushmore.

Excellent thread points! Yes. Questioning. Something that Americans have not been encouraged to do for some years now.

Dropping 6.2 million Mexicans without proper papers over The Wall; sounds good to many, especially since The Wall is on the Mexican border. What is to be done with the 1.8 million Central Americans who cannot be dropped over The Wall? What about the 1.2 million Asians who cannot be dropped over The Wall? What about other countries' nationals who cannot be dropped over The Wall?

Actually, Trump is backing off of what to do with workers who are already working here illegally (because it is illegal TO HIRE them). He has been made to see the oligarchic light, that the oligarchy needs these illegally hired workers and that these workers need to be kept in the shadows. Trump is one step closer to open borders, the free flow of oligarchic labor and capital.

a reply to: Krazysh0t


I wonder how long it will take to settle the property law suits, immanent domain issues, native American sovereignty rights, water access rights, that will shut down an expansive project like this before the first backhoe is unloaded? Even the idea of a WALL will be a gold mine for lawyers both for and against the construction. Even the plans for such a wall will be tied up in the courts for years and years.

The wall is now a symbol for conservatives, something like the Cross is for Christians. THE WALL has taken on a mystical quality completely divorced from reality; an icon that Donald Trump uses, knowing full well, it will never be built.

curious....

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Now there you have a point. Based on previous government projects, the idea of doing this in a year is laughable.

But the biggest part of Trump's appeal is that he's NOT government. The hope is that things will change. I share that hope. We'll have to wait and see if it's a false hope or not.

The difference between building a house and building a wall is scale. The point was that scale can be accomplished in more ways than time or quality.

TheRedneck