Putting Religion/The World Into Perspective. In One Fell Swoop.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So you said you gave the Bible a shot?

Ummm....I've read the Bible voraciously for 20 plus years. I know it very well. You should see my Bible. It's probably my 8th one and it's falling apart, duct taped, and written all in. It also has a Greek/Hebrew Concordance. So, please do not talk down to me or like I'm some sort of church pew warming newbie. I know what it says, I've experienced the HS speaking to me, and I have done EVERYTHING that you say is necessary to follow God.
What's so interesting is every fundie on here has made assumptions of me. Not one of you asked why I'm questioning it all. THAT'S what Christians do...they ASSUME. I used to do the same thing to people, who weren't "saved".
Much has happened in the past 5 years for me...much that I attribute to "Something" bigger and good....but, what I've been shown, definitely doesn't fit the parameters of all "Christendom".
You wouldn't understand, though.
Oh, and I can't stand Pauline doctrine...or Saul (aka Paul). He was a false apostle. So, quoting he's rhetoric is not going to mean a thing to me....and I spent 2 1/2 years digging into that.

Or feel free to ignore me. It makes no difference to me.

That actually gave me a laugh. Do you even realize you sound nothing like Jesus? Even when people ignored Him or walked away from Him, He loved them. He even said, "love your enemies". You can't mix Jesus and Paul. Paul cursed those who challenged him....Jesus would never do that.
Do you think indifference is love?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

God has done more than enough to help us, and when our sickness has finally run its course, He will clean up the mess.

So, for 6000 years, He let our "sickness" run it's course? Then, He sent Jesus....and the sickness is still running it's course (even in Christians who are supposed to be "FREE IN CHRIST" . Ok. Why? Why allow it all in the first place?
What purpose does it serve? To glorify HIM? We have to suffer, to glorify Him? Cause that's what "the good book" teaches, BP. Not only that, but all those "loved ones" who aren't saved, won't be there with us. Never mind that we may LOVE them....they just didn't "accept Jesus" into their hearts and confess with their mouths, so they could be saved, too.
And if we just hate this world and cling to the "next life" that's coming...it will all be made well. We'll have all our tears wiped away and there will be no more death or suffering. IN THE MEANTIME, it's going to suck really bad here. But, it's all to teach us how inept we are without God...how our miserable sinful lives can not ever measure up to His "Holiness'".
So, as soon as we all realize that, the better off we'll be. Right?
But..."OH HOW HE LOVES US!"
In the meantime, most Christians don't leave their church buildings or functions. They stay in their "holy huddles" in order to not be tainted by "the world" (or Babylon) if you want to get all eschatological. Most Christians don't even realize THAT. (eschatology, I mean). They are spoon fed on a weekly basis by their favorite pastor or latest guru Bible teacher (oh look! it only costs 9.99!) It's all for those Beth Moore Bible studies for all the ladies. The men usually are no shows for the "men's groups", unless it's the core 10 percent who actually give a crap. But, don't forget about those "home groups" and "pot lucks", where everyone plasters a fake smile on their faces and hopes most there don't see that they are dying inside.
Am I getting just a little close? That's been EVERY church I've been in. Now, there are some truly decent people in them, as well. Those who would go that extra mile Jesus spoke of, or give you the shirt off their backs if you needed it. But, they are few and far between. Churches are BUSINESS'S. Not only that, but fear is a lot that drives people...fear of being REAL, fear of actually questioning, fear of just about every danged thing there is...including the God they serve.
I've met more genuine people OUTSIDE of organized Christianity in the past five years, than I've met while IN IT...and they aren't even Christians! Plus, they don't feel the need to pretend and talk "Christianese" to you. There's not an "I'll pray for you" or an "Amen brother" at the end of every sentence.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I don't enjoy suffering, nor do I enjoy knowing that other people suffer, but at the same time, I realize that temporal suffering and physical death are not the worst things that can happen to a human.

Do you know what I feel sorry for the most? Animals.
They are sentient beings (supposedly made by the Creator), and we treat them so inhumanely, it's unfathomable. All so we can eat them.
THAT is one of the many things that made me question the "god of the Bible". If He made them to feel pain and suffering, just as we do...then, why the he** would he tell us to EAT THEM? There is no love, rhyme or reason, to that.
If you have the juevos for it, watch "Earthlings" on YouTube. Bet you won't, though.

SO...I'm going to ask you to be transparent...WHAT suffering have you been through that's changed you and made you who you are??

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move."


But seriously, the guy was satisfied with the size of his faith.
He tucked his caliper into his pocket saver
turned to the mountain and said "move from here to there."

The mountain sat right there laughing.
The guy asked what was so funny.
The mountain replied, "You missed the word this
in this mountain. This mountain is not this mountain.
do you know which mountain is this mountain?"

It probably only can work on one particular mountain. I don't even want to guess which one.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Ummm....I've read the Bible voraciously for 20 plus years. I know it very well. You should see my Bible. It's probably my 8th one and it's falling apart, duct taped, and written all in. It also has a Greek/Hebrew Concordance. So, please do not talk down to me or like I'm some sort of church pew warming newbie. I know what it says, I've experienced the HS speaking to me, and I have done EVERYTHING that you say is necessary to follow God.
What's so interesting is every fundie on here has made assumptions of me. Not one of you asked why I'm questioning it all. THAT'S what Christians do...they ASSUME. I used to do the same thing to people, who weren't "saved".
Much has happened in the past 5 years for me...much that I attribute to "Something" bigger and good....but, what I've been shown, definitely doesn't fit the parameters of all "Christendom".
You wouldn't understand, though.
Oh, and I can't stand Pauline doctrine...or Saul (aka Paul). He was a false apostle. So, quoting he's rhetoric is not going to mean a thing to me....and I spent 2 1/2 years digging into that.

I've been from church to church, and cant find a single one in my locality that doesn't heavily distort the gospel, and they never so much as mention the importance of 1John 1:9, so I was not talking you down. I was giving you information that is no longer taught in the vast majority of protestant churches. There is no need for hypersensitivity.

You seem content with your present system of perception.....

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor




Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

I am not of Native American descent but that sounds a lot like my Gnosticism. I believe that God is a Great Invisible Spirit far removed from the goings on of this realm who has sent Spirits of Wisdom, Knowledge and other divine attributes that we can tap into if we just try.

If we don't try we end up either completely clueless or corrupt, if we learn our beliefs from men and consider anything too sacred to question we end up sheep.

The only God of this world is a spirit I call the Spirit, which is the Spirit of all that is good.

The dark forces in this world are all human or the result of undiagnosed mental illness.

Yes, I agree. Though, I do believe there are other "entities" in this realm that are evil and feed on our suffering and fear. I even think the "god of this world" does, as well...and I don't mean "Satan", either. I agree with the Gnostic's view on a demiurge who controls and maintains this planet. I also believe Jesus was from outside this world (or at least the Spirit within Him who was from the true Most High was). Perhaps the true Creator actually made this world, but something high jacked it and caused the animals to kill one another and the pain and suffering we see here to flourish. OR....the demiurge has created this material realm and sort of used the matter already in existence to do so. I'm still pondering all of it. This I do know, a loving God would not have made a creation, put his first creations in a situation to for sure fail, then curse them for messing up. It's like I've said before....an abusive spouse is just like that....put all the blame on the other, for something they created or caused in the first place. Most people on this earth are just trying to survive and find some sort of joy and happiness in it. It does no good to put them on a guilt trip for just being human and struggling. Yes, there are truly evil people, but most are good hearted. To tell someone they will never measure up to God's "standards" and if they don't repent and BELIEVE then they are going to hell...is wrong on so many levels, it really angers me.
Yahweh is no better than "Allah". All the Abrahamic religions are awful.

Yahweh is Allah, but nevertheless I actually like the Qur'an, it's a lot less violent than the Bible and doesn't tell ridiculously tall tales. If it were classified from the Judeo-Christian perspective it would fall under wisdom literature. It actually espouses tolerance of other religions that aren't threats and it's only in relatively modern times that propaganda has made it to be an "evil" religion. Before the Crusades Palestine was a haven for all 3 religions and the Catholic denomination was poor and uneducated en masse including the Monarch's of Europe who all got together and decided to invade the Holy Land for $$$ because they were broke. They plundered every nation along the way and when they reached Jerusalem they murdered every Muslim and Jew, adult or child and ruined the Middle East in the name of Christ (the pagan Messiah, not the Jewish).

I believe that this was the will of the demiurge, who must be evil and is recorded as saying that he is good and evil and the only god, which is not what the Bible says (Deuteronomy 32 for example and have no other gods BEFORE me) it actually mentions Asherah, wife of El then Baal, was worshipped in the Temple which I believe was the true religion of Israel and is under Shekinah or Binah the feminine aspects of Kabbalah's tree of life.

Without the Goddess you have an incomplete religion and I believe that Yahweh is a lesser being than God Most High as even D 32 says this.

I actually do believe in evil spirits too, the demiurge can only create things that already exist so out of himself he created many "archons" that can only influence the willing, like people who believe that religions are true when they are man made (even if the some of the events are true).

This is why religious people suck, they are loath to admit it but lots of them walk around believing that they are going to Heaven and anyone who doesn't agree with what they were told to believe is going to hell. They must hate their lives so much (secretly) that they want to recruit more people to sell their souls to the church.

Jesus never approved of a hierarchical clergy and railed against it saying call no man father and such, which seems to have gone unnoticed by Catholics who are the biggest liars on earth and have been since Constantine.

Which makes the New Testament totally unreasonable as the oldest New Testament in existence is Catholic. Protestants think that seperating from Catholicism and removing several books makes them the "true" church and from there it has splintered to the point where Christianity persecutes Christianity now, not to mention every other religion in the world.

As long as you don't let religion dictate who you are you are safe from evil spirits. If you keep an open mind and just extract the wisdom from the books you can genuinely advance spiritually, but if you take it literally you open yourself up to evil (and insanity).

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

"Holy huddles" - Priceless image in my head, thank you.

And thumbs up to the rest of your post.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: BlackProject

The Bible does not control anyone.

Seems to control you, seeing as you claim to have read 35 different editions.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move."

But seriously, the guy was satisfied with the size of his faith.
He tucked his caliper into his pocket saver
turned to the mountain and said "move from here to there."

The mountain sat right there laughing.
The guy asked what was so funny.
The mountain replied, "You missed the word this
in this mountain. This mountain is not this mountain.
do you know which mountain is this mountain?"

It probably only can work on one particular mountain. I don't even want to guess which one.

That gave me a good laugh over my morning coffee.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Thanks...hey, I really liked your "Our Morality vs. God's Morality" thread.

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor




Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

I am not of Native American descent but that sounds a lot like my Gnosticism. I believe that God is a Great Invisible Spirit far removed from the goings on of this realm who has sent Spirits of Wisdom, Knowledge and other divine attributes that we can tap into if we just try.

If we don't try we end up either completely clueless or corrupt, if we learn our beliefs from men and consider anything too sacred to question we end up sheep.

The only God of this world is a spirit I call the Spirit, which is the Spirit of all that is good.

The dark forces in this world are all human or the result of undiagnosed mental illness.

Yes, I agree. Though, I do believe there are other "entities" in this realm that are evil and feed on our suffering and fear. I even think the "god of this world" does, as well...and I don't mean "Satan", either. I agree with the Gnostic's view on a demiurge who controls and maintains this planet. I also believe Jesus was from outside this world (or at least the Spirit within Him who was from the true Most High was). Perhaps the true Creator actually made this world, but something high jacked it and caused the animals to kill one another and the pain and suffering we see here to flourish. OR....the demiurge has created this material realm and sort of used the matter already in existence to do so. I'm still pondering all of it. This I do know, a loving God would not have made a creation, put his first creations in a situation to for sure fail, then curse them for messing up. It's like I've said before....an abusive spouse is just like that....put all the blame on the other, for something they created or caused in the first place. Most people on this earth are just trying to survive and find some sort of joy and happiness in it. It does no good to put them on a guilt trip for just being human and struggling. Yes, there are truly evil people, but most are good hearted. To tell someone they will never measure up to God's "standards" and if they don't repent and BELIEVE then they are going to hell...is wrong on so many levels, it really angers me.
Yahweh is no better than "Allah". All the Abrahamic religions are awful.

Yahweh is Allah, but nevertheless I actually like the Qur'an, it's a lot less violent than the Bible and doesn't tell ridiculously tall tales. If it were classified from the Judeo-Christian perspective it would fall under wisdom literature. It actually espouses tolerance of other religions that aren't threats and it's only in relatively modern times that propaganda has made it to be an "evil" religion. Before the Crusades Palestine was a haven for all 3 religions and the Catholic denomination was poor and uneducated en masse including the Monarch's of Europe who all got together and decided to invade the Holy Land for $$$ because they were broke. They plundered every nation along the way and when they reached Jerusalem they murdered every Muslim and Jew, adult or child and ruined the Middle East in the name of Christ (the pagan Messiah, not the Jewish).

I believe that this was the will of the demiurge, who must be evil and is recorded as saying that he is good and evil and the only god, which is not what the Bible says (Deuteronomy 32 for example and have no other gods BEFORE me) it actually mentions Asherah, wife of El then Baal, was worshipped in the Temple which I believe was the true religion of Israel and is under Shekinah or Binah the feminine aspects of Kabbalah's tree of life.

Without the Goddess you have an incomplete religion and I believe that Yahweh is a lesser being than God Most High as even D 32 says this.

I actually do believe in evil spirits too, the demiurge can only create things that already exist so out of himself he created many "archons" that can only influence the willing, like people who believe that religions are true when they are man made (even if the some of the events are true).

This is why religious people suck, they are loath to admit it but lots of them walk around believing that they are going to Heaven and anyone who doesn't agree with what they were told to believe is going to hell. They must hate their lives so much (secretly) that they want to recruit more people to sell their souls to the church.

Jesus never approved of a hierarchical clergy and railed against it saying call no man father and such, which seems to have gone unnoticed by Catholics who are the biggest liars on earth and have been since Constantine.

Which makes the New Testament totally unreasonable as the oldest New Testament in existence is Catholic. Protestants think that seperating from Catholicism and removing several books makes them the "true" church and from there it has splintered to the point where Christianity persecutes Christianity now, not to mention every other religion in the world.

As long as you don't let religion dictate who you are you are safe from evil spirits. If you keep an open mind and just extract the wisdom from the books you can genuinely advance spiritually, but if you take it literally you open yourself up to evil (and insanity).

I have to leave for work, but wanted to say I agree with all of the above. Great post!

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor




Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

I am not of Native American descent but that sounds a lot like my Gnosticism. I believe that God is a Great Invisible Spirit far removed from the goings on of this realm who has sent Spirits of Wisdom, Knowledge and other divine attributes that we can tap into if we just try.

If we don't try we end up either completely clueless or corrupt, if we learn our beliefs from men and consider anything too sacred to question we end up sheep.

The only God of this world is a spirit I call the Spirit, which is the Spirit of all that is good.

The dark forces in this world are all human or the result of undiagnosed mental illness.

Yes, I agree. Though, I do believe there are other "entities" in this realm that are evil and feed on our suffering and fear. I even think the "god of this world" does, as well...and I don't mean "Satan", either. I agree with the Gnostic's view on a demiurge who controls and maintains this planet. I also believe Jesus was from outside this world (or at least the Spirit within Him who was from the true Most High was). Perhaps the true Creator actually made this world, but something high jacked it and caused the animals to kill one another and the pain and suffering we see here to flourish. OR....the demiurge has created this material realm and sort of used the matter already in existence to do so. I'm still pondering all of it. This I do know, a loving God would not have made a creation, put his first creations in a situation to for sure fail, then curse them for messing up. It's like I've said before....an abusive spouse is just like that....put all the blame on the other, for something they created or caused in the first place. Most people on this earth are just trying to survive and find some sort of joy and happiness in it. It does no good to put them on a guilt trip for just being human and struggling. Yes, there are truly evil people, but most are good hearted. To tell someone they will never measure up to God's "standards" and if they don't repent and BELIEVE then they are going to hell...is wrong on so many levels, it really angers me.
Yahweh is no better than "Allah". All the Abrahamic religions are awful.

Yahweh is Allah, but nevertheless I actually like the Qur'an, it's a lot less violent than the Bible and doesn't tell ridiculously tall tales. If it were classified from the Judeo-Christian perspective it would fall under wisdom literature. It actually espouses tolerance of other religions that aren't threats and it's only in relatively modern times that propaganda has made it to be an "evil" religion. Before the Crusades Palestine was a haven for all 3 religions and the Catholic denomination was poor and uneducated en masse including the Monarch's of Europe who all got together and decided to invade the Holy Land for $$$ because they were broke. They plundered every nation along the way and when they reached Jerusalem they murdered every Muslim and Jew, adult or child and ruined the Middle East in the name of Christ (the pagan Messiah, not the Jewish).

I believe that this was the will of the demiurge, who must be evil and is recorded as saying that he is good and evil and the only god, which is not what the Bible says (Deuteronomy 32 for example and have no other gods BEFORE me) it actually mentions Asherah, wife of El then Baal, was worshipped in the Temple which I believe was the true religion of Israel and is under Shekinah or Binah the feminine aspects of Kabbalah's tree of life.

Without the Goddess you have an incomplete religion and I believe that Yahweh is a lesser being than God Most High as even D 32 says this.

I actually do believe in evil spirits too, the demiurge can only create things that already exist so out of himself he created many "archons" that can only influence the willing, like people who believe that religions are true when they are man made (even if the some of the events are true).

This is why religious people suck, they are loath to admit it but lots of them walk around believing that they are going to Heaven and anyone who doesn't agree with what they were told to believe is going to hell. They must hate their lives so much (secretly) that they want to recruit more people to sell their souls to the church.

Jesus never approved of a hierarchical clergy and railed against it saying call no man father and such, which seems to have gone unnoticed by Catholics who are the biggest liars on earth and have been since Constantine.

Which makes the New Testament totally unreasonable as the oldest New Testament in existence is Catholic. Protestants think that seperating from Catholicism and removing several books makes them the "true" church and from there it has splintered to the point where Christianity persecutes Christianity now, not to mention every other religion in the world.

As long as you don't let religion dictate who you are you are safe from evil spirits. If you keep an open mind and just extract the wisdom from the books you can genuinely advance spiritually, but if you take it literally you open yourself up to evil (and insanity).

I have to leave for work, but wanted to say I agree with all of the above. Great post!

Why thank you, I enjoy your comments too.

a reply to: misscurious

not a claim but a fact. Yet of all those versions only one stands clear as the preserved word of God. and it does not control me it liberates me.

a reply to: Taxiarch

now I now who you are. go away already will ya.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Seriously, find something better to do than sending pointless messages claiming that you "know who I am." Who do you think I am, Satan?

You go away, I wasn't even conversing with you but having fruitful conversations with the ATS community and you are just pestering me because I don't see things exactly as you do, which is intolerant and rather pathetically pointless as I am not going to change my mind because you immaturely mock me.

a reply to: BlackProject

please list the countless war don in God's/god's name.