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Putting Religion/The World Into Perspective. In One Fell Swoop.

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posted on Sep, 3 2016 @ 11:39 PM
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Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.




posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 12:29 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor






Do you think "quite possibly" that maybe your said "god" made a bad decision? Probably not.


I don't personally think so, but feel free to point them out.




So, you think he needs to "break some eggs" to grow us the "f" up? Ok, so tell that to the little girl that doesn't get a chance to "grow up" because she has some incurable disease, or tell that to the woman who just watched her family be buried in an earthquake or killed by a tornado. Oh, how bout telling those little African, starving, children, that they need to "grow the "F" up...you know, cause God needed to break some eggs to teach them how to be mature.


I think God placed us (as individuals) where we are because He knew what we would become in alternate circumstances. So perhaps that starving child in Africa would have been the next Hitler. Or not. Maybe suffering just expedites maturity.

The fact is that you and I are here because He put us here. He is the one that knows our hearts and minds.

You don't control when or where you are born. But you can control your decision making process. That is my point. Those Africans starve because we collectively oppress them. Its not God's fault. He just makes use of our choices.
edit on 4-9-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 08:54 AM
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originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor




Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.


I am not of Native American descent but that sounds a lot like my Gnosticism. I believe that God is a Great Invisible Spirit far removed from the goings on of this realm who has sent Spirits of Wisdom, Knowledge and other divine attributes that we can tap into if we just try.

If we don't try we end up either completely clueless or corrupt, if we learn our beliefs from men and consider anything too sacred to question we end up sheep.

The only God of this world is a spirit I call the Spirit, which is the Spirit of all that is good.

The dark forces in this world are all human or the result of undiagnosed mental illness.
edit on 4-9-2016 by Taxiarch because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 01:23 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor






Do you think "quite possibly" that maybe your said "god" made a bad decision? Probably not.


I don't personally think so, but feel free to point them out.




So, you think he needs to "break some eggs" to grow us the "f" up? Ok, so tell that to the little girl that doesn't get a chance to "grow up" because she has some incurable disease, or tell that to the woman who just watched her family be buried in an earthquake or killed by a tornado. Oh, how bout telling those little African, starving, children, that they need to "grow the "F" up...you know, cause God needed to break some eggs to teach them how to be mature.


I think God placed us (as individuals) where we are because He knew what we would become in alternate circumstances. So perhaps that starving child in Africa would have been the next Hitler. Or not. Maybe suffering just expedites maturity.

The fact is that you and I are here because He put us here. He is the one that knows our hearts and minds.

You don't control when or where you are born. But you can control your decision making process. That is my point. Those Africans starve because we collectively oppress them. Its not God's fault. He just makes use of our choices.


Truth is, Believer priest....you can't answer any of the things I pointed out. To actually think OBJECTIVELY or logically, would mean you would question God's lack of intervention in so much suffering. Trying to pass it off as "that starving child might have become the next Hitler is really reaching...cause guess what? He allowed a Hitler in the first place.
It never ceases to amaze me how many excuses are made for God's lack of involvement.



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 02:19 PM
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a reply to: BlackProject

hey mate, seek personal relationship with our Lord Jesus and when you receive Him, all will be clear to you. Praise the Lord



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 03:15 PM
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The OP is right. Its obvious God is mostly hidden in this world or timeline of what the Gnostics call the demiurge.

This is the world corrupted after the fall of man.

The only thing one can do is heal ones own microcosm after long and hard developmental work on oneself.


That WILL NOT heal the world only the inner world of that individual


Bottom line, God, as the Buddhists know is irrelevant until the world in macrocosm heals in full at the time of what is known or called the apocalypse (the revealing)

The apocalypse is the time when all the missing elements of the Garden of Eden are back where they were originally in the macrocosm.

Then and ONLY then can humans have true happiness and God will be God...


That’s just the way it is. One can’t change that other than inside themselves.



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest






You don't control when or where you are born. But you can control your decision making process. That is my point. Those Africans starve because we collectively oppress them. Its not God's fault. He just makes use of our choices.


Yes, we can control our decision making process. Here's the thing though, I WOULD SAVE ALL OF THEM AND FEED THEM IF I HAD THE MEANS. God does...yet He doesn't. Don't you find it a little bit of a double standard that WE are told to help the least of these (while simultaneously being held responsible for NOT doing so)...yet, a God with omnipotence can not seem to??
There is NO reasonable answer to that...none.
When I'm on here making these points about God (the biblical one anyway), it's because I actually took a step outside the fundamental religious box and really started to question it all. I know what scriptural answers are to all the things I've ranted about, so you aren't telling me anything I don't know. Here's the thing....they are not sufficient anymore.
IF there is a "god" of this world....it's not good. Call it the Demiurge or whatever you want. It's NOT good. IF there is something better and higher (which I feel I've experienced), then it's not of this realm.

I want to add one more thing....do you know what the main underlying theme is in Christianity? We DESERVE all this pain and suffering, because it's all OUR FAULT. Yes, it's US who brought this plague of sin and suffering on ourselves, so "God" gets a get out of jail free card. YET....WHO made it all in the first place? I know, I know, Adam and Eve brought this crap on all of us (well, EVE did...if you believe Paul's BS). SO, here we all are, just trying to somehow cope in this messed up world and planet, while simultaneously being made to feel guilty for all of it. Yea, that's what Christians mostly promote to the rest of the world. They are all waiting to be rescued and if you aren't on the rescue train of Jesus, you're basically screwed.
What's even more crazy, is even IF you do "His will", you're still going to suffer. So God can make his wonderful omelet.
edit on 4-9-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 4 2016 @ 07:14 PM
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originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor




Did Native Americans/Indians believe in God?


Majority of their culture were very good people. They shared and open their hearts to Pilgrims,slaves, and missionary people.
So What made indians so nice, compassionate, giving and hardworking? Was it God or some other spiritual being?


Kanien:kaha'ka-[]-[]-^-[]-[]


Best Answer: so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.


I am not of Native American descent but that sounds a lot like my Gnosticism. I believe that God is a Great Invisible Spirit far removed from the goings on of this realm who has sent Spirits of Wisdom, Knowledge and other divine attributes that we can tap into if we just try.

If we don't try we end up either completely clueless or corrupt, if we learn our beliefs from men and consider anything too sacred to question we end up sheep.

The only God of this world is a spirit I call the Spirit, which is the Spirit of all that is good.

The dark forces in this world are all human or the result of undiagnosed mental illness.


Yes, I agree. Though, I do believe there are other "entities" in this realm that are evil and feed on our suffering and fear. I even think the "god of this world" does, as well...and I don't mean "Satan", either. I agree with the Gnostic's view on a demiurge who controls and maintains this planet. I also believe Jesus was from outside this world (or at least the Spirit within Him who was from the true Most High was). Perhaps the true Creator actually made this world, but something high jacked it and caused the animals to kill one another and the pain and suffering we see here to flourish. OR....the demiurge has created this material realm and sort of used the matter already in existence to do so. I'm still pondering all of it. This I do know, a loving God would not have made a creation, put his first creations in a situation to for sure fail, then curse them for messing up. It's like I've said before....an abusive spouse is just like that....put all the blame on the other, for something they created or caused in the first place. Most people on this earth are just trying to survive and find some sort of joy and happiness in it. It does no good to put them on a guilt trip for just being human and struggling. Yes, there are truly evil people, but most are good hearted. To tell someone they will never measure up to God's "standards" and if they don't repent and BELIEVE then they are going to hell...is wrong on so many levels, it really angers me.
Yahweh is no better than "Allah". All the Abrahamic religions are awful.



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 02:16 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor



Truth is, Believer priest....you can't answer any of the things I pointed out. To actually think OBJECTIVELY or logically, would mean you would question God's lack of intervention in so much suffering. Trying to pass it off as "that starving child might have become the next Hitler is really reaching...cause guess what? He allowed a Hitler in the first place.


I answered you honestly. That is the best that I can do. Your understanding of OBJECTIVITY is subjected to the whims of your emotions. I don't enjoy suffering, nor do I enjoy knowing that other people suffer, but at the same time, I realize that temporal suffering and physical death are not the worst things that can happen to a human.

So I don't blame God anymore for what we do to ourselves and what we do to each other. He gave us the freedom to choose, He warned us of the consequences of our bad decisions before hand, and He provided us a way to rise above our bad decisions after the fact. God has done more than enough to help us, and when our sickness has finally run its course, He will clean up the mess.
edit on 5-9-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 02:34 AM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor




Yes, we can control our decision making process. Here's the thing though, I WOULD SAVE ALL OF THEM AND FEED THEM IF I HAD THE MEANS. God does...yet He doesn't. Don't you find it a little bit of a double standard that WE are told to help the least of these (while simultaneously being held responsible for NOT doing so)...yet, a God with omnipotence can not seem to??


Our problems stem from our inherent lack of impersonal love for each other. We are supposed to grow out of it by learning God's Word. So how would it benefit us as race in eternity if God were to simply come down and feed the world for us? How would it benefit you if your math teacher did your homework for you? You wouldn't learn anything.




When I'm on here making these points about God (the biblical one anyway), it's because I actually took a step outside the fundamental religious box and really started to question it all.


So have I. I spent about 8 years away from my faith before finding what I needed to know. To be honest, most Pastors and Christians do a sorry job at teaching and following through, but we are each still responsible for finding the truth regardless of our stagnant socio-spiritual environment.




I know what scriptural answers are to all the things I've ranted about, so you aren't telling me anything I don't know. Here's the thing....they are not sufficient anymore.


Not sufficient, or you just don't like them? Are you thinking emotionally or logically? (I don't want your answer. Just think about those questions.)




IF there is a "god" of this world....it's not good. Call it the Demiurge or whatever you want. It's NOT good. IF there is something better and higher (which I feel I've experienced), then it's not of this realm.


Experiences can be misleading, especially if they are from another realm. A human cannot objectively gage extra-dimensional phenomena with empiricism and emotion.




I want to add one more thing....do you know what the main underlying theme is in Christianity? We DESERVE all this pain and suffering, because it's all OUR FAULT. Yes, it's US who brought this plague of sin and suffering on ourselves, so "God" gets a get out of jail free card. YET....WHO made it all in the first place? I know, I know, Adam and Eve brought this crap on all of us (well, EVE did...if you believe Paul's BS). SO, here we all are, just trying to somehow cope in this messed up world and planet, while simultaneously being made to feel guilty for all of it. Yea, that's what Christians mostly promote to the rest of the world. They are all waiting to be rescued and if you aren't on the rescue train of Jesus, you're basically screwed.


I have learned a lot from the small amount of suffering I have experienced. Maybe if you tried to see it from God's eyes, you might learn something new. No pain, no gain...its true in the spiritual sense too.


edit on 5-9-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 09:26 AM
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originally posted by: richapau
a reply to: cooperton

Have you watched Christians, en masse they practice none of Jesus's teachings.


Jesus warned of hypocrites and those who preach with their mouth and not their heart.

"...you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false." Rev 2:2


Nor do the Christians on this website. They're to busy emulating Paul or Yahweh's judgmental attitude.
And they feel entitled to do so.


"Judge lest ye be judged". I have noticed that the ideals of Christianity are seldom, if ever (I've never met one 100% Christan, nor am I 100% following the Words of Christ [yet]), truly followed by its claimed adherents. To be perfect requires a leap of faith and perseverance through persecution:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

And we wonder why nobody is moving mountains... It's because no one is truly following the Word. Which makes you wonder the joy and amazement that would coincide if one could actually full-heartedly leave mammon and follow God, the new Exodus into the spiritual frontier of Endless Possibilities



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 06:50 PM
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The apostles Jesus was referring to were Paul, Barnabus, and Timothy. Jesus was addressing the church in Ephesus, which is in ASIA, which Paul said himself in (I believe) 2nd Timothy...all had turned AWAY from him.

Oh, and I know many, many, Christians who pray fervently, believe every word of the Bible, give exceedingly and abundantly, and still can't move a mountain. Honestly, they have the same problems as the rest of the people in this world.

So, how many mountains have you moved, Cooperton?
edit on 5-9-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-9-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-9-2016 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 07:04 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor




Yes, we can control our decision making process. Here's the thing though, I WOULD SAVE ALL OF THEM AND FEED THEM IF I HAD THE MEANS. God does...yet He doesn't. Don't you find it a little bit of a double standard that WE are told to help the least of these (while simultaneously being held responsible for NOT doing so)...yet, a God with omnipotence can not seem to??


Our problems stem from our inherent lack of impersonal love for each other. We are supposed to grow out of it by learning God's Word. So how would it benefit us as race in eternity if God were to simply come down and feed the world for us? How would it benefit you if your math teacher did your homework for you? You wouldn't learn anything.




When I'm on here making these points about God (the biblical one anyway), it's because I actually took a step outside the fundamental religious box and really started to question it all.


So have I. I spent about 8 years away from my faith before finding what I needed to know. To be honest, most Pastors and Christians do a sorry job at teaching and following through, but we are each still responsible for finding the truth regardless of our stagnant socio-spiritual environment.




I know what scriptural answers are to all the things I've ranted about, so you aren't telling me anything I don't know. Here's the thing....they are not sufficient anymore.


Not sufficient, or you just don't like them? Are you thinking emotionally or logically? (I don't want your answer. Just think about those questions.)




IF there is a "god" of this world....it's not good. Call it the Demiurge or whatever you want. It's NOT good. IF there is something better and higher (which I feel I've experienced), then it's not of this realm.


Experiences can be misleading, especially if they are from another realm. A human cannot objectively gage extra-dimensional phenomena with empiricism and emotion.




I want to add one more thing....do you know what the main underlying theme is in Christianity? We DESERVE all this pain and suffering, because it's all OUR FAULT. Yes, it's US who brought this plague of sin and suffering on ourselves, so "God" gets a get out of jail free card. YET....WHO made it all in the first place? I know, I know, Adam and Eve brought this crap on all of us (well, EVE did...if you believe Paul's BS). SO, here we all are, just trying to somehow cope in this messed up world and planet, while simultaneously being made to feel guilty for all of it. Yea, that's what Christians mostly promote to the rest of the world. They are all waiting to be rescued and if you aren't on the rescue train of Jesus, you're basically screwed.


I have learned a lot from the small amount of suffering I have experienced. Maybe if you tried to see it from God's eyes, you might learn something new. No pain, no gain...its true in the spiritual sense too.



I've learned a lot in the large amount of suffering I've experienced. I've learned compassion, empathy, to help those in need, to protect the defenseless and a whole bunch of other things. Guess what? I did those things as a child way before I "got saved". I could only do so much as a kiddo, though.
Do you really think Christians are the only ones who experience that? Do you honestly think it takes all the above to know right from wrong?
Do you think the only way to have those qualities is to suffer???



posted on Sep, 5 2016 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I never said that only christians learn from suffering.

Right from wrong is not the point. Its an elementary concept. Objectivity through humility is more important, and for many people, humility only comes through suffering.

Also, both suffering and prosperity are needed at some phase of the spiritual life to test one's capacity for impersonal love. Are you as loving as an afflicted person as you would be if you had $1Million (prosperity doesnt always come in the form of money)? Again, I'm making a point. I'm not interested in your answer to that question.



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 07:38 AM
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originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

Oh, and I know many, many, Christians who pray fervently, believe every word of the Bible, give exceedingly and abundantly, and still can't move a mountain. Honestly, they have the same problems as the rest of the people in this world.

So, how many mountains have you moved, Cooperton?


IF they truly believed without doubting it would be done for them. You can't perceive people's doubt. Ask them if they believe they can move mountains, they'll say no. And, as I said in my own post, I do not claim to have such faith either, otherwise I wouldn't be on this computer - unfortunately I have some financial debt to take care of before I leave my gift on the altar and leave Babylon.


The apostles Jesus was referring to were Paul, Barnabus, and Timothy. Jesus was addressing the church in Ephesus, which is in ASIA, which Paul said himself in (I believe) 2nd Timothy...all had turned AWAY from him.


You'll discover more Truth in the words of Jesus if you realize he is addressing all generations. This world and the heavens will pass away, but His Words will never pass away.



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 07:46 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest





Our problems stem from our inherent lack of impersonal love for each other. We are supposed to grow out of it by learning God's Word.





Right from wrong is not the point. Its an elementary concept. Objectivity through humility is more important, and for many people, humility only comes through suffering.


So, which is it? Is God's word supposed to grow us out of impersonal love or is suffering?
Here's what I've found..."God's word" causes division (even among believers). It causes those who follow it to be judgmental and more callous. Not every time, but the majority of it.
Suffering can produce humility...or bitterness and despair. Depends on the individual, actually. It also depends on the amount of suffering endured, or the circumstances involved.

I'll say again, there are many, many, people who are NOT Christians, who are kind, loving, giving, and there for others. They don't need the Bible to tell them to be that way, either. Oh, and if you are a member of the human race...you're going to suffer. It's a given.



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: BlackProject

The Bible does not control anyone.



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 09:28 AM
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a reply to: Taxiarch

Oh wait you are gnosisisfaith reincarnated.

Aren't you running out of ATS user names yet?



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 12:46 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: BlackProject

The Bible does not control anyone.



Of course not it's inanimate.

The people who call themselves, Ironically, servants of God USE the Bible to control people and use it well.

How many Christians take the Bible as a form of history when it's at BEST historical fiction, religious historical fiction.

Many people are subdued by religion and in a constant state of fear semi masked with plastic smiles.

The Bible is for people initiated into esoteric trths/wisdom and the literal reading and believing robs them of actually understanding what the human (Bible never says Jesus is God, that was later) Joshua Ha Maschiach taught.

If people spent more time trying to be like Joshua Ha Maschiach then it wouldn't matter.

But they spend to much time with the poor me attitude of "I'm a sinner, I was born a sinner, blah blah.



posted on Sep, 6 2016 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Learning from our suffering is not for Christians only. There is much that can be learned about ourselves and the world through our suffering. But for believers in Christ who abide in His word, there is a higher wisdom to be obtained. The Word teaches a new kind (καινός) of love (ἀγαπάω), and in our experiences (be it suffering or prosperity), we apply the Word. By that process we grow out of our worldly nature and begin to see how God fits it all together in His divine plan.



Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


It takes patience, humility, objectivity, and love to watch the picture begin to materialize; but before the process can be initiated, you must:

1) Believe that Christ Jesus died as a payment for all sin. John 3:16, John 1:29.

2) Then you must consistently cite your known sins (in the privacy of your own soul) as they are committed to God the Father, in order to stay in fellowship with God. This must be done on an 'as needed' basis. 1John 1:9.

The mass hypocrisy and disorder that you witness today in Christendom is a direct result of failure to properly utilize one or both of the two aformentioned devices, that are so vital to our relationship with God and consistent spiritual growth.

So you said you gave the Bible a shot?

>Was your understanding of salvation based solely on Christ's payment for our sins? If not, then the Gospel was misrepresented to you.

>Were you taught to utilize 1John 1:9 as a tool to consistently renew/refresh your mind? If not, then the spiritual walk was misrepresented to you.

Therefore, if you so desire, you could employ both of these tools now for a trial run, and see if the Bible can take on a new meaning for you? That would be the objective approach to the issue...to try something again in a different way, perceiving from a different perspective.

Or feel free to ignore me. It makes no difference to me.





edit on 6-9-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos




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