From Nothing to Nothing

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Always good to hear from Hall

a reply to: dismanrc

No my faith is in my Gods My education is in science.

So is English not your first language?

I appreciate the fact for the most part this topic has stayed pretty civil.
Well for the most part.



I know I wasn't trying to sway anyone in any regards just wanted to hear others opinions.

It's all good peeps

a reply to: SLAYER69

Its weird how people get mental over things... like arrg some secret knowledge the pleebs man the pleebs they dont need to know secret stuff.

Im like where the hell did you fall off? A typical people lose comprehension after 7 words think during a conversation missing the entire point a speaker is making waiting to interject their own crap and if the other does the same? Nothing has been said at all in reality just dust and echos waiting for a hello.

Of course either people have had an experience or not the same way rote learning does not mean grasping of the subject matter... so worthy? Not initiated? Didnt pay 1000s of dollars in some correspondence course? Either someone knows or they dont either someone has experienced or not no amount of opinion bashing (hate) or lip sealing (greed)makes any damned difference... people either know or will know or not know and only practice and karma will ripen or water that moment. Words can inspire or disuede, encourage or seek sides.

When all else fails? Ive seen converted white rice in the grocery isle depending on how its cooked it can taste like heaven or get the hell burnt out of it just the same as the rest.

I respect everyone's beliefs, including atheists'. I was a borderline atheistic agnostic individual for 20+ years myself.

What finally led me to faith was this:

In the harsh light of objective, empirical knowledge, there is no purpose or meaning other than that which we ascribe to our existence. The universe came into being through the collusion of natural forces of nature - be it an as yet unknown mechanism, the collision of two dimensional membranes, or whatever cosmological theorem one subscribes to - without meaning, or reason beyond the intrinsic nature of said forces.

Through the laws of physics set in motion in this universe following the Big Bang, and through the immutable law of causality, time came into being along with space, and events flowed from past to future, and the arrow of time pointed ever outward. In time, ever more complex ripples in said membrane or space time or quantum foam or however one wishes to conceptualize it, resulted in organized matter and energy. With the further passage of time, from complex elemental interactions, life emerged. With the further passage of time, natural selection - which is not a magical force of any sort as some imagine, but merely "how things shake out," with those mutations which are best suited to survival in their environment naturally and inevitably outnumbering and outliving those which are not led to beings with complex enough sensory organs and brains, to experience conscious thought and awareness. Hence, humanity enters the picture.

Now we exist. We live. We die. There is nothing beyond that. All the things we think matter - love, life, liberty, politics, our families, our posterity, the future survival of our species, ALL of it - mean absolutely nothing. The meaning we ascribe to them is illusory. Chemical and neurological reactions within our brains. Evolved behaviors. Social bonding and pheromones. Meat and ion channels. Our very consciousness, our very senses of identity and personhood... all meaningless. We live, and we die. And in time, the universe will grow cold and dark, rendering the survival of intelligent life impossible. No trace of us will remain, and no trace of any other life that could ever detect that we had ever been at all, will either. An endless meandering through time, arising from natural processes and interactions (and possibly, if you subscribe to M or membrane theory, or other similar cosmological theories, a complex interdimensional series of interactions and frictions, if you will.)

That is the long and short of our existence and its meaning - or lack thereof - that can be derived, unless we permit self delusion and cognitive dissonance, from the empirical, scientific, materialist view of reality. Even our sense of free will, is largely illusory in this paradigm. As some generative psychologists and neurologists as well as physicists now assert (from a study a few years back,) "Free will is an illusion, but it's a persistent illusion we cannot escape from." But it doesn't ultimately mean anything. We are simply the effects born of causes which began longer ago than we can possibly fathom, experiencing subjectively as meaningful, that which is objectively meaningless. We comfort ourselves by saying, "But that's okay, because it's our nature. We have evolved to do this - to ascribe meaning to our existence. It is how our evolved brains cope with existential terror." And that's all well and good. But it's still belief in something that objectively, is not real or true.

But therein was my escape from that paradigm, in which I was trapped for 20+ years, experiencing the pain of existential terror because my cognitive dissonance was not strong enough for me to simply accept that. I required more. I required belief in a greater meaning... yet none was forthcoming. But that's when I realized: even the staunchest atheist does have faith. Unless one is a complete nihilist and moral relativist (if you are, I respect your view,) everyone living engages in belief - however briefly - in things for which there is no objective proof! When you feel love for your family, a parent, your own very child, a lover, etc. - while it may be little more than physical processing giving rise to subjective emotions - you are engaging in belief and feeling that that matters and means something. If you believe your vote, your political activism, even your advocacy of atheism, matters because it will result in some good or some future security for the world or your offspring or what have you, you are engaing in belief that that matters in any real sense despite knowing that - objectively - for all of the above reasons... it really does not. The universe will still follow the same path it was always going to, and your free will and your love and your sense of meaning and personhood will still be just as illusory.

Unless that isn't the reality. Unless you choose to believe that that isn't the reality. And that, with all respect, is faith. It is the very definition of faith.

Once I realized this, I recognized that not only did I already have faith... but there was no escaping it for me. Every time I sat down and watched a movie and looked forward to that experience of sharing that entertainment with someone I loved... as if it mattered... that was faith. Every time I expressed concern about an event happening in the world, or my compassion for those suffering from said event... as if it mattered... that was faith.

And once I realized that we all delude ourselves (or are we deluding ourselves?) and engage in faith anyway, whether we want to accept or we realize that or not... I was able to let go, and allow myself to explore other possible delusions and belief systems as well. And in so doing, very gradually, because I was open to them (or because I was now willing to delude myself for the first time depending on how you want to look at it... take your pick... it doesn't matter since we all delude ourselves anyway,) I began to have experiences which confirmed my faith and strengthened it. What those of religious persuasion might call "private revelations."

So you can choose to view this in two different ways. Either I am deluding myself, simply to a greater degree now than those who are atheistic... which should be fine, since we're all deluding ourselves anyway to one degree or another, I now realize... or I am engaging with something that is not immediately or materially apparent, but is nonetheless somehow, in some mysterious way, true, and being revealed to those seeking it earnestly. Take your pick. But it shouldn't matter either way. So long as I'm not harming anyone, or telling anyone else what they should believe... I'm just engaging in delusion like every other non-nihilistic human being on the planet, right? Allow people their delusions... if indeed they are delusions... for you yourself are deluded as well, if we live in a purely empirical, materialist reality. It's inescapable that life has no objective meaning or purpose if that's the case, in which case anything goes because what does it matter anyway unless I'm hurting you?

Which in itself, is an irony. Because that sounds an awful lot like, "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you," at a fundamental level. :p

So that's how I came to faith. And I continue to respect the views and feelings of those who disagree. Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

Yes, death is scary, but I fail to see the point in deceiving ourselves into believing that we can avoid it with some fancy promises of eternal life and happiness afterwards. The universe is indifferent to our existence, dreams, our aspirations, our loved ones, our hopes. That's a hard pill to swallow but I'd rather live a hard truth than an easy lie.

a reply to: GetHyped

So be it, and I will not judge.

For myself, it doesn't matter either way in that case. If nothing matters, then neither does the choice between an easy lie (if it is a lie,) and a hard truth (if it is the truth.) Even the belief that that distinction matters... is faith imho. I respect the views of those who disagree, and bear none ill will. (That part of my belief system has never wavered, from agnosticism to faith.)

Peace.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: chr0naut
Then please explain the specifics of the steps with which one would apply the scientific method to any one of them.

Or consider the Laws of Thermodynamics. These are considered facts, fundamental, even, are they not?

This is actually a very common misunderstanding. Scientific Laws are able to be broken. They are not designed to be absolute. They are merely the resulting conclusion of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and may be found false when extrapolated.

Really it's no different than any other part of Science. If an observation is made that 'breaks' the previous conclusion then that previous conclusion is scrapped and a new, more accurate conclusion is formed.

That is precisely my point.

Elements considered fundamental and which other theory is built upon, are themselves fairly ephemeral.

Aristotlean physics, involving all sorts of philosophial musings no longer considered science, were similarly based and now proven wrong. Definitely they all lack the rigour of test by scientific method.

How is modern supposition without test any different from the Aristotelean?

When someone finds an exception to such a fundamental precept, by rights the entire construct of scientific belief dependent upon those invalidated precepts needs redaction. Due to the fractured nature of hundreds of specialities in science, this doesn't happen.

In the instance of the firewall issue at the event horizon around a spacetime singularity, a defined demarcation point is provably a nonsense, as regertfully acceded to by Hawking. Yet the implications to existing theory has had almost no effect upon the field and most calculations and papers are continuing to be based upon the disproven! This is the way science really works.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Please provide the case which falsifies one of them, not something general, some specific theory that is supported by observational data and can be tested.

I'm not sure you are able to accept such evidence. From your writing it seems as though you believe "observation" means "Being there to witness it first hand". Scientific observation doesn't require subjective observation because objective observation is far more accurate.

"But if you are wanting very specific things, perhaps the "Superluminal Inflation" of the early universe after the Big Bang, which breaks all the rules of physics, had no observer, is not possible to experiment upon and is based upon entirely circumstantial and possibly misapplied evidence. "
~ chr0naut

Could you clarify what you mean by "observational data" just so we know we're on the same page?

I would be happy to accept any unequivocally indisputable evidence. One does not have to be 'in the moment' temporally to observe.

I do not accept circumstantioal or ambiguous evidence as a proof. My rules of evidence are similar to those accepted in a court of law, the caveat is that science's evaluation of what constitutes evidence should be even more critical and exacting than legal requirements.

The Hubble constant based upon redshift data assumed to be from optical doppler shift, may not be that at all. The cosmic microwave background is assumed to be ONLY from the leftover heat of the Big Bang but we have no evidence of such. It could have another source.

To build cosmologies on such 'proof' as the CME and Hubble constant, is folly. It is hypothesis based solely upon other hypotheses.

You also make the assumtion that a disproof in science means that an alternate theory is proposed. In practice, such is NOT the case. There is no such dictate of science that says the disproof of a theory should immediately lead to the search for its replacement. As previously noted in regard to the singularity firewall issue, there are examples this very issue occuring.

a reply to: AceWombat04

This is pretty typical in the line of self rationing after someone has had a look through the veil a glimpse of reality and got scared and ran back to base trying to forget the experience.

I'm not judging you I have been there decades ago seen friends there and yeah depression or nilhism can and often does follow after that bubble pops reforming that bubble with cognitive dissonance or denial wont change reality... nor the past that lifted it for however long to see behind the curtain.

If that requires it being called faith? A belief that its too big to comprehend or grasp in totality and full on f-ing scary wheres the other pill to swallow to forget it back in dreamland? I understand... thats why there are sudden, quick, and gradual paths to fully waking up but everyone is on it regardless of desires to bubble pretend its 1950 or some other time than right then or agree on those bubbles in groups... to preserve some dream over reality.

Thats wholly ok it does get a lot better the fear goes away so does any doubt meaning no need for belief or faith that someway somehow things get taken care of and handled... well it does get handled by everyone that keeps going that doesnt stop that understands energy does not have to be attached to limited form out of fear that consciousness will somehow end with the body... all the crap in the mind already echos this group speak of consciousness... the only difference is the attachment to form makes it nearly impossible to experience via ego of one body one consciousness when its countless bodies and forms and countless consciousnesses and many people set on closed source instead of open source...

Well sorry to hear you got scared but urging others to run away from unlimited to limited? Is like saying would you rather give up on billions and come live on a fixed income for the ego of one.

Theres no need for any belief, dogma, or faith wen its simply reality... just keep going or not, eventually itll happen one lifetime or 1000s. I personally just got to the point where I couldnt make excuses any more trying to bubble trying to hide trying to deny reality for fantasy... glad I havent I may not be concidered rich by material standards but in constant awe and love of others more than any single self could ever feel or know... and you dont need a single damned thing in this entire universe, no now happy now sad see saw, no constant up and down, pain or suffering... sure you learn with that, which is exactly where the love and empathy for others arises from.

Well, have a good one

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Fair enough!

Peace.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: mOjOm

I am not stuck on repeat, I am repeating because you cant hear

You made it clear that suicide was damnation as you understood, in a faith you dont accept
You say I dont grasp the language, think, just think

You said you have been told suicide was condemned and repeated what you heard

There is no evidence, Catholic, Orthodox, whatever you decide to rely on, no biblical truth to damnation for those who take their own lives

Exodus 20

Oh great
Exodus, thats relevant in context

Maybe go ask a Rabbi

originally posted by: SLAYER69
a reply to: Stormdancer777

Always good to hear from Hall

Long video, I watched half last night, amazing man so knowledgeable

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Oh great
Exodus, thats relevant in context

Maybe go ask a Rabbi

The Ten Commandments aren't relevant to Christianity?

a reply to: Ghost147

What do yoiu think ghost, is there a chasm of intellect between me and you on this issue, do you really know nothing about this subject

www.gci.org...

It seems ghost, you dont know as much as you try and let others believe you do
or
Maybe you are a Jewish Pharisee, adding your burdens to people because you think you are more special than everyone else.

You are the typical religious fundamentalist, pretending you know, adding laws, berating people, you act smarmy and knowledgeable, sadly you dont know and have never thought to try.

I just cant believe your ignorance mixed with so much arrogance, you havnt a clue but act all knowing
The very idea that christians are subject to OT laws is insanity

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147

What do yoiu think

www.gci.org...

It seems ghost, you dont know as much as you try and let others believe you do

I never said I knew a lot about Christianity. No reason to be an a** to someone because they aren't knowledgable about a topic

I honestly thought that the Ten Commandments were relevant to Christianity because I constantly hear Christians bring it up.

Tell me, why is it a bad thing to honestly not know something?

I was asking a question and immediately all you do is belittle me for no apparent reason.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
You are the typical religious fundamentalist, pretending you know, adding laws, berating people, you act smarmy and knowledgeable, sadly you dont know and have never thought to try.

When did I say "I know everything"?

I fully admit I don't know everything, I fully admit that I don't know a lot about Christianity, I fully understand that I'm unknowledgable about a number of topics outside of religion as well.

However, at least when I see someone honestly make a mistake about a topic I do understand I don't call them a pompous fundimentalist moron. Instead, I opt to try and help them understand.

But way to show your true colours. Jesus would be proud

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147

What do yoiu think ghost, is there a chasm of intellect between me and you on this issue, do you really know nothing about this subject

www.gci.org...

It seems ghost, you dont know as much as you try and let others believe you do
or
Maybe you are a Jewish Pharisee, adding your burdens to people because you think you are more special than everyone else.

You are the typical religious fundamentalist, pretending you know, adding laws, berating people, you act smarmy and knowledgeable, sadly you dont know and have never thought to try.

I just cant believe your ignorance mixed with so much arrogance, you havnt a clue but act all knowing
The very idea that christians are subject to OT laws is insanity

And there's the pot calling the kettle black.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Ghost147

What do yoiu think ghost, is there a chasm of intellect between me and you on this issue, do you really know nothing about this subject

www.gci.org...

It seems ghost, you dont know as much as you try and let others believe you do
or
Maybe you are a Jewish Pharisee, adding your burdens to people because you think you are more special than everyone else.

You are the typical religious fundamentalist, pretending you know, adding laws, berating people, you act smarmy and knowledgeable, sadly you dont know and have never thought to try.

I just cant believe your ignorance mixed with so much arrogance, you havnt a clue but act all knowing
The very idea that christians are subject to OT laws is insanity

every single arrogant and condescending word you addressed to Ghost applies far more to yourself than to the poster you are addressing. You are a vulgar pretender of Christianity and it is pathetic. The icing on the cake is that your "proof" of how to interpret scripture comes from a denomination of roughly 50,000 evangelicals. Is this the church you belong to? Does this one faith and its 50,000 adherents really speak for over 2 billion Christians worldwide? I think not. You would do well to remember that while some of us are no longer practicing Christians, many of us still grew up in and spent a nice chunk of our lives in the Church.

For example, the denomination I grew up in consists of 1.27 billion adherents today. In that faith, the 10 commandments are most definitely a part of Christianity. Furthermore, if you actually understood the context of your link, the whole point of watering down the 10 Commandments was to make it easier to convert non Jews to the new Christian faith. It's the equivalent of when Rome became a Christian Empire and they renamed pagan festivals such as Sol Invictus, and made the formerly pagan holidays and festivals Cristian holidays/festivals/feast days etc... there was one purpose and one purpose only, to make conversions to Christianity easier for the general populace to go along with.

Sorry, your 50 thousand member church does not trump the teachings of the other 2 billion congregants. You need to check your ridiculous levels of condescension and arrogance and learn a little about the faith your proclaim to represent.

a reply to: peter vlar

originally posted by: introvert

At this point, I am comfortable sitting on the fence. I don't know if there is a higher power/creator, but I will not say there isn't one either.

We will just have to wait and see.

It really is quite the inner struggle isn't it? It's so hard to commit to a belief.

Yet we so badly want to believe in something.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: mOjOm

I am not stuck on repeat, I am repeating because you cant hear

You made it clear that suicide was damnation as you understood, in a faith you dont accept
You say I dont grasp the language, think, just think

You said you have been told suicide was condemned and repeated what you heard

There is no evidence, Catholic, Orthodox, whatever you decide to rely on, no biblical truth to damnation for those who take their own lives

Amazing. That's the first time you've made a post that is consistent and perfectly understandable. Thank you.
So I guess maybe you do grasp the language just fine and just choose to be confusing sometimes. I'm not sure but I hope you continue this way now.

Of course there is no evidence. We're talking about Religious Dogma. What evidence would there be for what happens to someone if they commit suicide??? They're dead and they'd be the only one who could verify what happens.

Unless by evidence you mean just a reference to it. In which case I already showed you exactly where that is referenced within Catholic Theology.

You seem to want to argue Religious Theology as if there is actually some hard evidence or proof that can be shown. But we're talking about the interpretation of scripture not some objective things which can be measured or known to be factual independently. So I don't get where you're trying to go with this discussion. Whatever someone interprets from their chosen religious theology will be subjectively true if they believe it to be. But subjective truths are just that, subjective so you're wasting time trying to argue about it.

But I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is why I said I was done talking to you earlier. But I can't seem to stop myself because it's just so damn entertaining wondering what weird avenue of thinking you'll reply with next.

I've always been a sucker for a troll I guess. I know you're not supposed to talk to trolls but I just can't help it. It's just so fun to talk to them that I almost always do it. It's just one of my many vices I guess.