From Nothing to Nothing

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: VP740

You worship math? Have an altar to it and a bible, a patron saint to give thanks to before meals and holidays to celebrate? How then do you measure the divinity in math? What properties have you found to indicate godliness, and how have you defined the quality referred to as 'godlike'? What are you using as basis for comparison?

I don't have an altar to any god and I'm a Theist. I think the altar bit only applies to a few religious practices, not all.

Perhaps the Bible of mathematics is the "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica" by Isaac Newton?

Similarly, there would be many 'saints' of mathematics in the same way that there is no sole "patron saint" of Christianity.

As there is a certain amount of calculation involved in all calendars, I can't see why all feasts and holidays could not be claimed for mathematics.

If you type "mathematical measure of divinity" into Google search, you get many results for the "Golden Ratio" or "Divine Proportion". I'd guess that could be it.

Not all religions say that there is a god. So a measure of 'godliness' is not universally required.

Hay mods its only been 2hrs and i cant edit my post for stupid spelling mistakes.

It says its past the 4hr limit to edit.

God damn it. Lol. Ohh well

a reply to: chr0naut

If you are going to call something divine, it helps to know exactly what properties entail divinity and how.

a reply to: TzarChasm

You worship math? Have an altar to it and a bible, a patron saint to give thanks to before meals and holidays to celebrate?

None of that. Not all religions have those things. Some religions don't even have a god. True worship comes through thought and deed. Although setting aside some time every year to celebrate the mysteries of mathematics would be awesome! Maybe I can get my family to start celebrating some of these holidays: 14 Math Holidays Every Math Major Should Know

What properties have you found to indicate godliness, and how have you defined the quality referred to as 'godlike'? What are you using as basis for comparison?

Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe. -Galileo

As God calculates, so the world is made. -Leibniz

Though I was being somewhat tongue in cheek when I said I worship Math, I do think mathematical study has a spiritual quality (hence Hofstatder's quote). Let's look at the root:

from Ancient Greek μαθηματικός ‎(mathēmatikós, “fond of learning”), from μάθημα ‎(máthēma, “knowledge, study, learning”). -Wictionary

Where do we start in mathematics? We must begin with statements which are already accepted and require no justification, axioms:

from Greek axiōma ‘what is thought fitting,’ from axios ‘worthy.’ -Google

One example of an axiom is the statement: if a=b, and b=c, then a=c. I don't need a book to tell me this, I already know it. Supposedly, when Alexander asked Euclid if he could be given an easier course in his study of geometry, Euclid replied that for travelers through the country, there are roads for royalty, and roads for the lower classes; but in geometry there is but one road for all to follow.

The only thing I can truly know, is what I experience. One can't survive well without the ability to infer things beyond their momentary experience though. How do you know where to get food when you wake up hungry in the morning? You may remember buying groceries and putting them in the kitchen, but how do you know your memory is accurate, and that they're still there? Maybe if you just lie in bed for a while, your hunger will go away? If you get up to look for your food, you may not be able to find it, and just aggravate your starvation in the process.

Well, I need faith in something in order to make any kind of sound decision. Next to experience, I instinctively put most of my faith in reason. Math is a transcendent form of reason. I know 1+1=2, I know this even without a physical demonstration. In fact, someone could breed one mail and one female cat, and tell me the result was eight kittens. That doesn't change my mind; I'd just say they're talking about a different matter, even if they were using the same words.

So, math evokes in me a sense of faith, transcendence, universality, and revelation of truth. In my opinion, that's not a bad path for those seeking a religious experience.

a reply to: SLAYER69

soundcloud.com...

originally posted by: coomba98
Hay mods its only been 2hrs and i cant edit my post for stupid spelling mistakes.

It says its past the 4hr limit to edit.

God damn it. Lol. Ohh well

Expected from a product of homeschooling...

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: TzarChasm

You worship math? Have an altar to it and a bible, a patron saint to give thanks to before meals and holidays to celebrate?

None of that. Not all religions have those things. Some religions don't even have a god. True worship comes through thought and deed. Although setting aside some time every year to celebrate the mysteries of mathematics would be awesome! Maybe I can get my family to start celebrating some of these holidays: 14 Math Holidays Every Math Major Should Know

What properties have you found to indicate godliness, and how have you defined the quality referred to as 'godlike'? What are you using as basis for comparison?

Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe. -Galileo

As God calculates, so the world is made. -Leibniz

Though I was being somewhat tongue in cheek when I said I worship Math, I do think mathematical study has a spiritual quality (hence Hofstatder's quote). Let's look at the root:

from Ancient Greek μαθηματικός ‎(mathēmatikós, “fond of learning”), from μάθημα ‎(máthēma, “knowledge, study, learning”). -Wictionary

Where do we start in mathematics? We must begin with statements which are already accepted and require no justification, axioms:

from Greek axiōma ‘what is thought fitting,’ from axios ‘worthy.’ -Google

One example of an axiom is the statement: if a=b, and b=c, then a=c. I don't need a book to tell me this, I already know it. Supposedly, when Alexander asked Euclid if he could be given an easier course in his study of geometry, Euclid replied that for travelers through the country, there are roads for royalty, and roads for the lower classes; but in geometry there is but one road for all to follow.

The only thing I can truly know, is what I experience. One can't survive well without the ability to infer things beyond their momentary experience though. How do you know where to get food when you wake up hungry in the morning? You may remember buying groceries and putting them in the kitchen, but how do you know your memory is accurate, and that they're still there? Maybe if you just lie in bed for a while, your hunger will go away? If you get up to look for your food, you may not be able to find it, and just aggravate your starvation in the process.

Well, I need faith in something in order to make any kind of sound decision. Next to experience, I instinctively put most of my faith in reason. Math is a transcendent form of reason. I know 1+1=2, I know this even without a physical demonstration. In fact, someone could breed one mail and one female cat, and tell me the result was eight kittens. That doesn't change my mind; I'd just say they're talking about a different matter, even if they were using the same words.

So, math evokes in me a sense of faith, transcendence, universality, and revelation of truth. In my opinion, that's not a bad path for those seeking a religious experience.

But there is no god in math, no war for the souls of earth, no allegorical struggle between ultimate dark and ultimate light for supremacy over reality, no campaign amongst the mortals for political advantage in a subtle takeover of global governing bodies as per the edicts of one extraterrestrial/dimensional overlord or another, so on and so forth. No apocalypse, no Armageddon, no rapture, no heaven or hell. Not so much as a prayer for meals or times of crisis. Apples and oranges, really.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Eh as much as I want to not say it. Not all religions have that nonsense in it. Just the ones that get stabby if you say bad things about them

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

Eh as much as I want to not say it. Not all religions have that nonsense in it. Just the ones that get stabby if you say bad things about them

The vast majority include classic elements varying between a creation story, an end times story, some icon representing order and chaos or life and death or natural vs unnatural, a means of appeasing these icons, a person who speaks on behalf of these icons, a mass socioeconomic interface, and an entire country dedicated to its preservation and perpetuation. Does math have a pope?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

Eh as much as I want to not say it. Not all religions have that nonsense in it. Just the ones that get stabby if you say bad things about them

The vast majority include classic elements varying between a creation story, an end times story, some icon representing order and chaos or life and death or natural vs unnatural, a means of appeasing these icons, a person who speaks on behalf of these icons, a mass socioeconomic interface, and an entire country dedicated to its preservation and perpetuation. Does math have a pope?

You should probably do a Comparative Religion course. You might be surprised atthe varietyof beliefs and how little some of them look like Judeo-Christian religions.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Wow! You sure are looking for different things out of religion than I am.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

Eh as much as I want to not say it. Not all religions have that nonsense in it. Just the ones that get stabby if you say bad things about them

Like the way evolutionists get when their beliefs are questioned
They hate science, it terrifies them

Sad because outside of that they seem reasonable, guess that's fundamentals mfor you

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: TzarChasm

Wow! You sure are looking for different things out of religion than I am.

I don't look for anything in religion. This is what I observe in most religions, particularly the successful ones. The ones currently dominating the market.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

Eh as much as I want to not say it. Not all religions have that nonsense in it. Just the ones that get stabby if you say bad things about them

The vast majority include classic elements varying between a creation story, an end times story, some icon representing order and chaos or life and death or natural vs unnatural, a means of appeasing these icons, a person who speaks on behalf of these icons, a mass socioeconomic interface, and an entire country dedicated to its preservation and perpetuation. Does math have a pope?

You should probably do a Comparative Religion course. You might be surprised atthe varietyof beliefs and how little some of them look like Judeo-Christian religions.

But they share quite a few elements between all of them. Islam, Judaism and Christianity especially. And then the polytheistic systems also yield some significant overlap, Greek and roman pantheons being virtually identical in many respects. The point being, math has none of these elements. Math is not a religion, no matter how useful it may be in dismissing the fact that your divine properties have not yet been measured and are thus impractical as far as productive discussion. Unless you admit its all just conjecture.

a reply to: Raggedyman

When you can speak the truth, get back to me Till then *pat pat* go play with you little troglodyte friends in the young earther gang.

originally posted by: chr0naut
They were in different posts. Perhaps the topic had moved on?

So by "the topic had moved on," you mean you ignored the post. Great. If you don't want to address the point and can't argue it, just say so.

No field of human knowledge, including science, is dependent upon observation (alone). That was precisely my point, language and meaning, philosophy, reasoning and theorization are not depenent upon observation, and yet you used the lack of 'observed evidence' as a reason why semantic and philosophic constructs were not acceptable to you.

First, I say lack of objective evidence, not observed evidence. Second, you are misunderstanding what an observation is in science. It doesn't mean directly watching something in real time. It means gathering data. Of course nothing is dependent on watching things alone, that's why tests are performed. That doesn't give credence to the subjective reasoning you offered previously.

You actually presented four discrete concepts in the section I answered. The concepts stated were "logical default with the idea of nothingness; OR infinity in numbers with an actual "infinite universe"'.

The use of 'or' between the two comparisions (note also thet the "or" quoted was uppercase, probably to highlight its significance) I take to indicate that you concieve them to be mutually exclusive of each other, something with which I would disagree (i.e: 'one OR the other', not 'one AND the other').

No, that's not what I was saying in the least. I was trying to say "Don't confuse logical default with nothing. Also, don't confuse the concept of infinite universe with infinity." 2 separate scenarios, 4 different concepts.

I was not confusing "the logical default with the idea of nothingness" - they are obviously unrelated concepts.
I was also not confusing the "infinity in numbers with an actual "infinite universe" (the universe must be finite or the night sky would be infintely bright from infinite numbers of stars).

Then why did you mention suspending math? If you already understand that the idea of nothingness and the idea of infinite universe have nothing to do with math, why suspend it based on lack of observing those particular things?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Again I'd not say the "vast majority" either. Mostly it is the Abrahamic faiths (so that is the largest grouping). A lot of the polytheistic faiths the world over don't have those aspects, its only once monotheism gets its claws into them they show these signs.

I'm not going to argue that Mathematics is a religion, as you know I'm not of that opinion. I don't worship tools

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

Again I'd not say the "vast majority" either. Mostly it is the Abrahamic faiths (so that is the largest grouping). A lot of the polytheistic faiths the world over don't have those aspects, its only once monotheism gets its claws into them they show these signs.

I'm not going to argue that Mathematics is a religion, as you know I'm not of that opinion. I don't worship tools

The symptoms are the same across countries and centuries. But math does not share these symptoms. numbers are perfectly impartial. Numbers don't have an agenda. They say what is, and if you are good at reading them, they say how. But they don't tell you how to feel about the information or what you should do about it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I do not think I am disagreeing with you over the mathematics neighbour. SImply an oversimplification of spirituality Its not something major. Though to quote something back at you, why do you bother with this, and the creationists?

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: TzarChasm

I do not think I am disagreeing with you over the mathematics neighbour. SImply an oversimplification of spirituality

Its not something major. Though to quote something back at you, why do you bother with this, and the creationists?

Curiosity.

a reply to: TzarChasm

That is all which matters *Hands poking stick back*