(To the religious) Why is it so difficult to accept that some people don't believe in gods?

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Ghost147

I told you, in my first post, I came to Islam via spiritual experiences.

No one told me what to believe.

Yes, that's all fine and everything, but did you not read the Qur'an?

I'm just trying to understand how you came about to understanding islam. If all the information was somehow imprinted on you in your experience, then yes, that would certainly not be indoctrination. However, if your experience simply lead you to Islam, and then you followed by learning everything about it through texts, people and otherwise, then that would still be indoctrination.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: grainofsand

it is obvious

Me: Prove it.

You: I can't.

Me: & I cannot disprove it.

You: Agreed.

Me:

Okay, I'll concede with your caveat that we cannot prove a baby is in communion with some god "until they lose the knowledge as they grow", that's cool.
I can prove that every child who has never been taught about any gods has no idea about such claims.
The young kids of all my friends would be good examples. They haven't been indoctrinated by their parents, as my now adult son was not.

As a ( now ) heathen who was raised Southern Baptist in the Bible Belt, I can attest to the fact that religious behavior is deeply indoctrinated from birth in children here. Even amongst the Protestantant denominations here, there is a bit of "my team is better than your team" mentality. Don't even mention Catholic, Muslim, or Wiccan to a Protestant here...

Luckily, I began to question why a deity would create me, only to give me one choice or be eternally damned to "Hell" if I didn't conform.

Via a roundabout path, I wound up as an Agnostic Theist who prefers gods/goddesses who are more relatable and "human", rather than a judgmental, perfect sky-father who demands nothing but worship.

I still have to be careful who I divulge my beliefs to around here... I'm not entirely sure the pitchforks and torches wouldn't come out.

I lost track of how many times I've been told I'm going to Hell by now.

a reply to: Ghost147

That's off topic.

Suffice to say I read the Quran after my experiences and low and behold my beliefs and ethics matched.

I'm not a one off, so I do take offence to the generalisation.

Anyways...
Remember this is about your question "why do some religious people not understand etc etc"...


And you'll recall, the first thing I did was agree with you, by saying they're indoctrinated.

When I said "some" atheists are just as indoctrinated, to which I stand by, I specifically said the militants.
Anti-theists, or atheists who spend an weird amount of time obsessing about something they couldn't give two #s about.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Ghost147
I'm pretty sure that none of the US educational systems prescribe to a Christian point of view. God has been expressly forbidden from most secular schools, to the point even of changing the words of our own National Anthem. I agree with teaching a secular curriculum.

Unfortunately this is not totally true. In most states, yes, this concept is adhered to, however there are several states that have been altering textbooks due to religious actions.

"Critics said that some of the government and world history textbooks, for example, exaggerate the influence of biblical figures — such as Moses and Solomon — on the nation’s founding and Western political tradition. A few of the books include material that critics said undermines the constitutional concept of the separation of church and state."
link[ /url]

"
Students in Texas will soon be reading biology textbooks that teach creationism if some of the state’s textbook review panelists have their way."

[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/11/texas-creationism-textbooks_n_3902946.html]link

You don't think that the Bible influenced Western political tradition? I am holding in my hands a copy of the Declaration of Independence which expressly uses the term God in several instances.

One well-known example is this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.."

another:

".. the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.."

etc..

a reply to: grainofsand

Here's the rub mate, I was brought up RC, was made to go to religious schooling, was made to be an alter boy, and come 12-14 I became agnostic...

I questioned all those who would try to indoctrinate me and tell me if burn if I didn't believe in Jeebus Lord and saviour...

It actually turned me away from religion...

It was only my experiences that led me to what I believe is the Source of all.

Now, even now, I have never been to Mosque, except when I converted...
I don't want my beliefs perverted by men.

I just don't appreciate being called indoctrinated when my whole life has been the opposite.
Maybe I'm a rare case, I can accept that.

But it's still not nice to be generalised about.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
I lost track of how many times I've been told I'm going to Hell by now.

Wow, different worlds. I don't actually know anyone who has intimated to me that they believe in any gods.
The last two funerals I went to were non-religious services to celebrate the life of the deceased, no mention of afterlife or anything at all like that, that is becoming more common.
Certainly with each generation, the declared lack of faith is growing at each UK census, 25% stated no faith at the last one in 2011, it was 15% in 2001.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

As Ghost said, unless all the teachings of Islam were magically downloaded into your brain during your 'spiritual experience' or whatever then it is learned from some other source, eg. The Quran, someone else's teachings, therefore indoctrination.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yeah, it really is. At the very least, someone will make a face if you even "hint" at not being a Protestant Christian where I live.

I see it slowly getting better, but it is still not socially acceptable to be not Christian.

Great topic. I'll throw out a couple of ideas that may have been mentioned or... maybe not. I've only read the first page completely and don't have time right now to give the thread the attention it truly deserves.

I consider myself an athestist. If I'm being truly honest, I suppose I'm really an agnostic because I can't PROVE without a doubt anything.

I'm a practicing Buddhist so in that sense I'm religious, I do practice the tenets of the 'religion/philosophy' every day, sometimes well and more often not.

I 'believe' in many things. I don't think it is possible to 'live' without belief/faith in something even if it's as mundane as one's selfs or money or science or libertarianism or whatever.

At any given time I believe in various 'gods' (of my own making - maybe your's too) and pray to the same. Ancestors, Saints, traffic and parking god's, money gods, and so forth. And it helps - in suprising ways. I believe it works because I'm, thereby, speaking to a higher unconscious part of my self that is part and parcel of a univeral whole.

We, anthropologically speaking, create our gods, in our own image. And in our fear we seek refuge in authoriartian gods rather then seek our own understanding of truth.

It's much easier to submit to an authority, then decide for yourself. A huge difference in Western and Eastern religions and philosophies.

"Do as I say, not as I do" or

"Do as I do and see what you discover of truth."

Not very nuanced but there are the basics....

I'm an atheist because I can say with a high degree of certainty that no anthropomorphic authoritarian god exists. And by definition the word means not theist.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
At any given time I believe in various 'gods' (of my own making - maybe your's too) and pray to the same.

I'm an atheist because I can say with a high degree of certainty that no anthropomorphic authoritarian god exists.

How do you explain the clear contradiction there?

a reply to: Ghost147

In short some people have large broad brushes they use on a multitude of subjects .Pick a TV channel and watch it 24/7 and you will get the idea that there is a narrow band of information that will be promoted for differing reasons .Pick the religious channel and you will see differing groups of faith . Now it just might depend at what time slot you watch it because they can't put them all on at the same time .

When we think of religion we some how associate a building with it like a church . Religion is a very diverse complex subject like some of the sciences . The closer you look at something even with a microscope you get a different picture . Not every one looks deeply into all subjects and so you could say there is a ignorance people are happy to live with and don't get very excited about finding out the finer details of bacteria or baptismal s .

Heck some Atheists have a good working knowledge about some of the religions and so one could imagine that they must have at least had some interest in order to have gained that knowledge . Or maybe it was shoved down their throat in school like some of the history's we were taught .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Why wouuld you assume that we have trouble imagining that some would not believe? You are talking about a world in which big, flashy marquis proof of the existence of ANY deity is hard to come by. This is very much why it is called faith.

What I think causes the confusion is that some faiths are under the instructions to spread faith whenever and wherever they can. I understand this causes no end of frustration to those who sincerely do not believe, but think back an ask yourself how many times you have been proselytized by the exact same person.

Sure there are going to be those who won't get the memo, but at least in my experience, having a Kingdom Hall right down the way, I don't tend to see the same JWs twice.

And there are also going to be people, like myself, who aren't looking to necessarily change your mind but we will witness anbd talk about why we believe in God as much as you disbelieve and that gets treated like a failure to understand that some won't or don't want to believe in any gods or God.

PS - I am writing this from a tablet so please my not having read the thread. This thing is difficul to work with at the best of times.

The motto in the USA is freedom and not having to fear. In the USA 83% claim to be Christian which is God Fearing religion. Funny how we try to eliminate dictators yet many be live in the ultimate dictator God....

To much hypocrisy in religion to take serious.

a reply to: ketsuko

Very well put, even with your tablet issues
It seems that as I can understand why you believe in a god, you also can understand why I don't believe in any.
There are plenty of folk on both sides of the faith camp who are different to us though, I only see them online though.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Ghost147

That's off topic.

Not really. One member suggested that indoctrinating children could be the cause of the mentality in the OP.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
Suffice to say I read the Quran after my experiences and low and behold my beliefs and ethics matched.

I'm glad you found an ideology that suited you so well but correct me if I'm wrong, your beliefs and ethics could very well have matched well with the religion, but to really be a part of a religion you need to know the stories, the specifics, their prophets and what they did, what happens to you if you don't follow their ethics, so on and so forth.

Indoctrination isn't exclusively from birth. It's merely the act of being instructed within the following of a doctrine/ideology. Following the Qur'an was your indoctrination. It's not a bad thing.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Ghost147
When I said "some" atheists are just as indoctrinated, to which I stand by, I specifically said the militants.
Anti-theists, or atheists who spend an weird amount of time obsessing about something they couldn't give two #s about.

I see, but Atheism isn't an ideology, so how could there be indoctrination into being a militant atheist?

originally posted by: zosimov
You don't think that the Bible influenced Western political tradition?

No, I never stated that. What I am against is intentionally changing history and science in order to push an agenda, which certainly was the attempt with those textbooks in Texas.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

That's an opinion, or belief hehe...

You cannot prove that anymore than I can prove babies are in communion with God and angels until they lose the knowledge as they grow.

And this is bordering off topic.

It is bordering off-topic, but it is still an important point.

Babies (in my opinion) are born with a spiritual knowledge. But that doesn't mean they will be "religious."
When you look at reincarnation anecdotes and theories, and NDE stories, it becomes clear that babies are, indeed, spiritually aware ----- but society/parents shape and mold that 'awareness' (or, they don't! Yay!) if they can.....


my kids are both advanced souls, and we all are aware of the 'spiritual being' of each other. Yet (not curiously) none of us are "religious."

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: zosimov
You don't think that the Bible influenced Western political tradition?

No, I never stated that. What I am against is intentionally changing history and science in order to push an agenda, which certainly was the attempt with those textbooks in Texas.

I see that now. My apologies. One thing I'd like clarified: are we talking "several states" or Texas?

Doesn't matter much, but I would stand by my supposition that the influence of Christianity on our educational system is next to nothing.