The real culling of the populice. Carfentanil laced heroin overdoses spread like wildfire

a reply to: Phage

Hmm true but not like 35 ods in 24 hours in the same town lol. Maybe they are about to raise the price of nalaxone injections by 400 percent like epipens. They are trying to push over the counter sales of them in Canada. Maybe that is what all the fuss is about

Edit*One town 35 ods in 3 days one county 95??? Ods in 5 days? * they are not using this stuff on purpose and unless they are chemists they wouldn't touch this stuff with a pole...maybe they did it by mistake not realizing just how strong it was... let's see how far it spreads across the country. So far it's 3 states pretty well at once. Seems too coincidental to me!!

originally posted by: tiredoflooking
a reply to: tetra50

Thank you. Not enough ppl are talking about it. I know it has been an age long struggle but something happened with the introduction of some of these new long acting medications. Doctors were told this is the answer! The potential for abuse is less and this will help chronic pain people, which they do I know. But how doctors could believe the potential for abuse was low I find hard to believe. Even if it's true they prescribe so widely for every and any condition...this is epidemic proportions now and it's perfect because those involved don't want to publicly talk about it and anyway who would listen to them? Junkies...drug seekers...depression caused from how these drugs alter your brain makes ppl believe they are the lowest of the low. With so many in this position the only answer would be mass rehab and an entire shift to change the way we see addiction. We could do it...we could use funds from new legalized weed sales. Canada says they will. How many will be dead before this happens from this mysterious appeareance of killer heroin? Will it happen? Highly doubtful. It's a sad slope. I'm glad you have found a way to survive the pain for all these years and are OK. Or as you can be. I understand it very well it's a battle and coming back from brain changes after meds is a battle I know too...opiates and things like Lyrica! ! My neurologist said to me we have no idea what Lyrica does to your brain and in combination WITH opiates hahaha. That was a great response. In any case thanks for your reply and hope you stay as well as possible

Though I truly welcome this discussion and your op, in general, i disagree with you on many points. I don't blame doctors, as it seems to me from reading your opinion, that you do. Frankly, whether you have a medical degree or not, if you haven't experiences pain, it'l quite likely you won't understand the entire scope of its effects, medical degree or not.....

I frankly am wary of your OP, bc I don't want to see people like me, in chronic pain, find it more diffficult to get the prescriptions that they need. You see, those of us that suffer this will do just about anything to get out of it, so we can have some quality of life. So if we can't find the doctors to prescribe what we need to live with some quality of life, we will seek other avenues.....and that isn't something I want to address nor live through, and don't think I should have to.

Some abuse prescription drugs. Perhaps lots of people do. That doesn't change the fact that some of us need those meds to live a close to normal life, and by normal, I mean: if some of us don't have access to meds, we stop wanting to eat, to live, to have sex, to interact with others in any meaningful way......anyone who suffers chronic pain to a high degree will understand what I'm writing about, here.

While I applaud and endorse your scope within your OP, on the larger scale of what this may mean to the general populous, there is still the reality of what those of us suffering go through daily, and what we need to continue on.....

So, I don't endorse nor support blaming doctors, nor cutting off the supply to people truly in need and suffering. Just saying, my friend, it's a complicated issue. Plus, we haven't even begun to discuss that taking painkillers when you are in true pain, and taking painkillers when you are seeking a recreational high is a totally different scope of issues.
Biologically, emotionally and the addictive quotient is quite different, besides. Chronic pain alters brain chemistry quite specifically. So, painkillers for TRUE chronic pain patients have a totally different effect and outcome versus people who are seeking a recreational high.

Just saying, again. It's an apples and oranges type of thing. Tomorrow when I have access to my glasses, I will return to your thread with links about the biological effects of chronic pain and how painkillers have a differential effect uncer those particular circumstances. This is quite a complicated issue, though I get what you are saying and applaud your efforts at starting this discussion, as it's very important. And I truly believe that it is a form of culling, though I think the subtleties are very important, and if not addressed correctly, people who are suffering will be culled just as surely as those who are in danger of addiction are being culled......

hope you get what I'm trying to say
regards,
tetra

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tiredoflooking

They certainly aren't using it on purpose so WHERE is it coming from??

Who isn't? The pushers? Of course they're using it on purpose. It's cheap and plentiful. Gives the users an awesome rush. They'll be back, if they survive. If they don't, the pusher don't care.

Oh please, Phage....there really aren't any "pushers." There is an economic goal, and a demand. Calling anyone a PUSHER is ridiculous, currently.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tiredoflooking
Those "problems" have been around for a long time. "Getting rid" of them would never really be a problem. There are poisons other than opiods which would have been used long ago if that were the solution.

You cannot buy heroin with a prescription. You can only buy it on the street. And it never (never) has been what you were being sold. You may blame doctors for much, but don't blame them for that. That is pushers victimizing addicts.

Again, we have a lot of misinformation going on here. No one pushes anything, really. It's a supply and demand type of thing, and in our economic system it is disingenuous to call anyone a pusher when there is a genuine demand, and a lack of ways to make real money. Who wants to work at Wendy's and who can afford to do that and support children, after all.

Many peolple you are labelling "pushers" would have a totally different life had they been able to go to college and get MBAs, such is the current paradigm for economics.

As for "buying heroin wihtout a prescription," morphine is the same as heroin. You can buy either, with or without, anywhere, anytime. Our military presence in Afghanistan, for instance, has insured more and safer poppy producrtion and distrubution now than at any time in our history, regardless of "prescriptions." It's not really about prescriptions, frankly.

This is a multi faceted issue, more so probably than any other, right now. Terminology such as "pushers" is old hat and lacks the subtlety of the attendant issues at hand, which is why we are facing what we are right now, frankly......

a reply to: tetra50

A pusher is a guy on the street selling what he claims to be heroin.
A pusher is a guy who cares only about selling what he claims to be heroin.

a reply to: Phage

LOL at you telling me what a pusher is. Supply and demand. No one is pushing anything. People want, and people supply.

For more scholarly debate about this issue: LINK

a reply to: tetra50

Supply and demand.

How does that vary from my definition?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tetra50

Supply and demand.

How does that vary from my definition?

Pushing implies, obviously, an exertion of force. Whereas, demand is about an insistent and peremptory request. They are quite different, actually.

a reply to: tetra50

I do get what you are trying to say. I can understand even more than I can express living with chronic pain. I do as well. I guess I skimmed quickly over that subject as it wasn't really what I was writing about. I guess I sort of almost take it for granted as silly as that is...for me it's been since my car accident in 2008. I absolutely believe ppl in pain do not even experience a " high" from these meds as it is eaten by ones pain and is just a part of daily survival. I guess when I say I blame the doctors it might be true that I am actually more a little resentful at their lack of understanding and that is probably , just as you say, because they do not suffer from chronic pain themselves. My focus with this post was sort of more narrowly directed at these current heroin overdoses and how and why they are happening. You are absolutely right that there is a much bigger picture here that desperately needs to be talked about.

a reply to: tetra50

I provided a clear definition, with no implications.
Was my definition inaccurate? Would "dealer" have been less offensive?

This is another take on the same:

Chronic pain not caused by cancer is among the most prevalent and debilitating medical conditions but also among the most controversial and complex to manage. The urgency of patients’ needs, the demonstrated effectiveness of opioid analgesics for the management of acute pain, and the limited therapeutic alternatives for chronic pain have combined to produce an overreliance on opioid medications in the United States, with associated alarming increases in diversion, overdose, and addiction. Given the lack of clinical consensus and research-supported guidance, physicians understandably have questions about whether, when, and how to prescribe opioid analgesics for chronic pain without increasing public health risks. Here, we draw on recent research to address common misconceptions regarding the abuse-related risks of opioid analgesics and highlight strategies to minimize those risks.
SOURCE OF THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC
More than 30% of Americans have some form of acute or chronic pain.1,2 Among older adults, the prevalence of chronic pain is more than 40%.2 Given the prevalence of chronic pain and its often disabling effects, it is not surprising that opioid analgesics are now the most commonly prescribed class of medications in the United States.3 In 2014 alone, U.S. retail pharmacies dispensed 245 million prescriptions for opioid pain relievers.4,5 Of these prescriptions, 65% were for short-term therapy (

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tetra50

I provided a clear definition, with no implications.
Was my definition inaccurate? Would "dealer" have been less offensive?

Actually, I think it was me that provided a very clear definition of both. Yes, "dealer" would be much less offensive.
We currently have an ecomnomy that disenfranchises many. If you were an uneducated, lacking in options, having grown up in poverty, young man who can make $200 to $400 a day dealing, or work at Wendy's, flipping burgers for less than a $100 a day, supporting children, mothers, what would you do and what would you prefer to be called?

Are you actually pushing something on folks that aren't seeking the same, or supplying them with what they demand?
It's actually quite a different thing when viewed through that scope, is it not?

originally posted by: tiredoflooking
a reply to: tetra50

I do get what you are trying to say. I can understand even more than I can express living with chronic pain. I do as well. I guess I skimmed quickly over that subject as it wasn't really what I was writing about. I guess I sort of almost take it for granted as silly as that is...for me it's been since my car accident in 2008. I absolutely believe ppl in pain do not even experience a " high" from these meds as it is eaten by ones pain and is just a part of daily survival. I guess when I say I blame the doctors it might be true that I am actually more a little resentful at their lack of understanding and that is probably , just as you say, because they do not suffer from chronic pain themselves. My focus with this post was sort of more narrowly directed at these current heroin overdoses and how and why they are happening. You are absolutely right that there is a much bigger picture here that desperately needs to be talked about.

I am sorry and respect that you suffer.
That is the most important point to me.
However, this is a very complicated issue. If you aren't careful, you'll be arguing yourself out of the very pain meds you need to live normally. See?

It isn't the doctors fault, I don't think. Sure we blame them. We have to go wait in their offices in uncomfortable chairs, and they don't really understand if they aren't pain specialists, and even if they are, if they've never experienced said chronic pain, they don't get it.....nor does anyone else.

Is it a culling? Sure. Most things are, currenlty. We have the Hagellian dialectic where problems are introduced, so solutinos can be introduced, and along that path, many will fall by the wayside, unfortunately, whether through addiction, or post traumatic stress, or any other number of reasons that come out of the "introduced" situations to support the economy of giving people jobs and refining people who can withstand said circumstances....get me?

However, the pain med thing tends to work on a pendulum swing: docs prescribe, people get addicted, od, and then the pendulum swings the other way. Right now, vis a vis Prince and many others, we are on the pendulum swing of the overprescribing, addiction issue, rather than the compassionate care pendulum swing. See how that work? It's been that wya for a long time.

However, there really is a situation to be delved into here, I think, in terms of big pharmaceutical companies. Every day on television, for example, you will see advertising for drugs to fix a problem while at the same time you will see ads for class action law suits against the same drugs. This is much bigger than pain meds, actually.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tetra50

I provided a clear definition, with no implications.
Was my definition inaccurate? Would "dealer" have been less offensive?

Actually, I think it was me that provided a very clear definition of both. Yes, "dealer" would be much less offensive.
We currently have an ecomnomy that disenfranchises many. If you were an uneducated, lacking in options, having grown up in poverty, young man who can make $200 to $400 a day dealing, or work at Wendy's, flipping burgers for less than a $100 a day, supporting children, mothers, what would you do and what would you prefer to be called?

Are you actually pushing something on folks that aren't seeking the same, or supplying them with what they demand?
It's actually quite a different thing when viewed through that scope, is it not?

I apologize for jumping in on a conversation, pretty sure anyone who has had a good look at where we are today can see that it is far from fair, so far so that to work at one of the multi nationals corporations in the U.S apparently you are not even payed a living wage.....this goes to show how far we are gone in this failed system.....Phage may be a bit of an enigma, he is NOT devoid of feeling however

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tetra50

I provided a clear definition, with no implications.
Was my definition inaccurate? Would "dealer" have been less offensive?

Actually, I think it was me that provided a very clear definition of both. Yes, "dealer" would be much less offensive.
We currently have an ecomnomy that disenfranchises many. If you were an uneducated, lacking in options, having grown up in poverty, young man who can make $200 to $400 a day dealing, or work at Wendy's, flipping burgers for less than a $100 a day, supporting children, mothers, what would you do and what would you prefer to be called?

Are you actually pushing something on folks that aren't seeking the same, or supplying them with what they demand?
It's actually quite a different thing when viewed through that scope, is it not?

I apologize for jumping in on a conversation, pretty sure anyone who has had a good look at where we are today can see that it is far from fair, so far so that to work at one of the multi nationals corporations in the U.S apparently you are not even payed a living wage.....this goes to show how far we are gone in this failed system.....Phage may be a bit of an enigma, he is NOT devoid of feeling however

I agree and understand. This isn't my first go round with Phage. I think he would concur, himself, that I understand qutie well that he isn't devoid of humanistic compassion. But good of you to take up for him. Wish I had the same mamy times, on these boards. LOL

a reply to: Phage

You cannot buy heroin with a prescription. You can only buy it on the street. And it never (never) has been what you were being sold. You may blame doctors for much, but don't blame them for that. That is pushers victimizing addicts.

Drug addicts blame anyone and everyone as long as it takes away the blame from themselves.....btw i am not writing this for your benefit....

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: Phage

You cannot buy heroin with a prescription. You can only buy it on the street. And it never (never) has been what you were being sold. You may blame doctors for much, but don't blame them for that. That is pushers victimizing addicts.

Drug addicts blame anyone and everyone as long as it takes away the blame from themselves.....btw i am not writing this for your benefit....

That's not particular to addiction, I don't think. We all do that. It's a human trait, I think. And I'm not writing that for anyone's benefit. It's just what I've noticed about people and their motivations and explanations for their behavior. Politicians come to mind, as well......

a reply to: tetra50

He needs no explanation .....from my point of view he comes across quite robotic in his thinking,(assuming he or she is male ?)

OK robotic is harsh...linear perhaps ??......blunt even....regardless he is a smart cookie and has some unique insight and no matter how you feel about that, it is much better to listen and learn than to write off....

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: tetra50

He needs no explanation .....from my point of view he comes across quite robotic in his thinking,(assuming he or she is male ?)

OK robotic is harsh...linear perhaps ??......blunt even....regardless he is a smart cookie and has some unique insight and no matter how you feel about that, it is much better to listen and learn than to write off....

I don't find Phage robotic at all. But this thread isn't about how anyone perceives Phage. Thanks for advising me to "listen and learn." I've been around a while. I've listenend and learned from Phage and many others for quite some time.
I'm not "writing anyone off" by admantly supporting my viewpoint, but thanks for your opinion, nonetheless.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Are you even kidding me right now? The 200 or so ppl dead from this killer heroin over the last few weeks aren't blaming anyone are they? Anyway this thread is not specifically about addiction, chronic pain or dealers and their validity or lack thereof. ..it about a huge quick death toll and why it might be happening.