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Are there any laws forbidding psychiatrists from testing for personality disorders without consent?

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posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 12:38 AM
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Hello, everyone.

I wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask this. I was wondering: are there any laws (within the United States, to be more specific: California) forbidding psychiatrists and/or psychologists from assessing and/or diagnosing their patients for any personality disorders with neither their patients' knowledge nor consent? I am vaguely aware of certain rules and/or regulations regarding this, one rule which I think applies to this is the “Goldwater rule” which apparently forbids psychiatrists from commenting on individuals' mental state without examining them personally and without being authorized by the person to make such comments. The “Goldwater rule”, however, does not seem to be in itself a law, but more of a suggestion made by the American Psychiatric Association, which some psychiatrists and psychologists seem to ignore.

Is it also possible for a patient to be diagnosed with any personality disorders during a mental status examination without taking the “Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory – 2” or any other diagnostic classification and rating scales used in psychiatry? I am also aware that under certain circumstances, psychiatrists will not tell their patients about their diagnosis, such as certain patients with borderline personality disorder. I would really like to know if there really is such any laws and where I can read about them.

Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me with this.




posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 12:41 AM
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Since its "lawful" for lawmakers to be pathological LIARS, I doubt it.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 12:44 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

Meh.

Such psychological diagnoses don't really have 'tests' so much as contrived leaps to conclusions. Hell, anybody with a keyboard can diagnose.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 01:00 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

I'm going off non-professional knowledge, but a personality disorder seems like a deep, complicated disorder to diagnose. I can't imagine a psychiatrist would diagnose someone without many tests & sessions. Also, a psychiatrist is an MD - they took the Hippocratic Oath, so they're goal should be to help someone with treatment. Meaning, they are supposed to tell the patient of their disorder among other ethical practices. Again, I'm not a professional, just working thru logic and past knowledge.
edit on 28-8-2016 by Jason88 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 01:03 AM
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a reply to: Jason88

Well, speaking from experience...

Psychiatrists are little more than glorified pill-pushers.

But what the hell do I know? I'm just a cynical jerk



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 01:41 AM
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It was only about 50 years ago when it was very common for shrinks to diagnose women with penis envy.

Really, these personality disorder tests are VERY subjective. Read the ones about paranoia - the test is whether they believe you.

I don't really have knowledge about rules, I don't know of any that would prevent it. In fact, for insurance purposes, I would think there is a motivation of some type of diagnosis.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 01:49 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

While not employed in the field nor nearly qualified in such things, from experience I can attest that diagnostic criteria is definitely not legally limited to the result of any standardized test or group of tests. Honestly speaking, one can walk into a general practitioners office, state that they are depressed, anxious, angry, etc... and be diagnosed and receive treatment based upon their statement and possibly their responses to a few follow-up questions.

Over the years I've dealt with doctors ranging from psychiatrists, to GP's and even my cardiologist - they've all treated my issues at one time or another. In comparison I've taken the MMPI exactly one time, decades ago.

As far as the specific aspect of your question about diagnosing patients - I'd think that there is a legal difference between the act of offering a professional diagnosis and simply offering observation based opinion of a public personality. There could be some guidelines but I am not aware of any laws that would preclude such commentary.

ETA:

If your question is on a more personal level than wondering if TV doctors are allowed to comment upon public persons ( as has been the case in the US election recently ) - then I'll add that observation is a diagnostic criteria. IE show up in an ER talking about how the implants and voices are ruining your day - or needing your stomach pumped because you just took 400 pills... and like it or not, you're going to end up with at least a broad based, generalized diagnosis of something.
edit on 8/28/16 by Hefficide because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 01:56 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

I dont understand why you are asking. The diagnosis means nothing to anyone but the patient. Doctor cant share that info, wont treat you with out being asked....



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 02:06 AM
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a reply to: Aeshma

I think they're referring to someone being evaluated already and questioning the diagnosis or wanting someone to have an evaluation who's resistant.

For example, if someone was 'sectioned' or held on mental health grounds, they may find themselves being diagnosed with a specific condition. This would go on their record and they might dispute it on grounds that they did not give consent and reject the diagnosis.

In another scenario you might have a teenage son/daughter who's displaying abnormal thinking/behaviours. They might appear to have symptoms of a mental condition and won't see a professional. This might also extend to, say, a partner with a dramatic personality change.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 04:16 AM
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originally posted by: NarcolepticBuddha

Psychiatrists are little more than glorified pill-pushers.

You just described the entire medical-industrial complex, from "mental health" to the ER, and on to the insurance cubicle.




posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 05:05 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

Far from being unlawful, I think it is their job.

In my youth, a friend of mine was stabbed to death by someone who had severe personality disorders but no one wanted to hospitalize them because it wasn't politically correct.

If someone has a genuine problem it is dangerous to society to NOT treat them (with the caveat of the Hippocratic oath to protect human dignity).



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

No. The Goldwater rule is quite different. You could both sit in a room and them not ask you anything but still assess you based on your behavior and reaction.

Psychiatry is an ever-evolving scam. When it is truly intended to help people well, people vary like the grass in your yard. As each of you are so different there are not much more than commonly accepted practices. How they diagnose you is hardly controlled so long as they've actually met you.

Honest question - did you or someone close get a diagnosis you didn't like and want to see if you can sue them?



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 11:19 AM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

I dont think there are any laws and they could do it anyway in secret. Like recording someone. You cannot record someone's conversation without their permission...but? The police do it all the time.

No, the evidence they record cant be used in court because they had no permission to be recording. BUT! They sure can go out afterwards and arrest someone FROM that conversation...only back it up with evidence AFTER they do. They dont even have to mention their 1st lead in a direction was from an illegally recorded conversation.

This happens every day. Info illegally obtained, and the criminal revealed at last...now we go get some evidence in another direction confirming a reason for conviction...with no mention ever that it all started with an illegally obtained recording.

I assure you...thats everyday. And a psych dr. could as well. He just cant say anything about it...
edit on 28-8-2016 by mysterioustranger because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 11:44 AM
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Sometimes, the good of the many overrides the privacy of the individual.

If Donald Trump (who I presume we're talking about) wants to go on teevee and act like a total whackadoodle, then he should expect people with some authority to come forward and say so, if timidly at first.

Everyone is so scared of this jackass calling them low energy, fat or a loser that they're afraid to come forward and voice the obvious. The Would-Be Emperor has no...

No balls, no class, no brains, no sanity. What's it gonna take for Trump's supporters to see him as he really is?

When he isn't saying ANYthing really, it seems like his supporters just fill in the blanks with what they want to hear, and then decide internally - 'I like Trump, he says what I'm thinking.' It's some weird form of cognitive dissonance and I'd be willing to bet good money that that's how the world has ended up with every despot, ever. He's already threatening to ban numerous news outlets that he doesn't like and thinks nothing of throwing journalists out of the room in a public event.

It's vitally important for anyone who has any sort of authority (unlike Trump's doctor who we saw as he really is yesterday, another example of 'the best people' Trump says he hires) to come forward and describe in no uncertain terms what they are seeing in this man's behavior, HIPAA laws and tradition be damned.

*Caveat - Hillary is awful too. Vote Stein or Johnson and we can finally get rid of the two party stranglehold that has given us all these messes we're in.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 07:04 PM
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originally posted by:OfTheVoid46
Honest question - did you or someone close get a diagnosis you didn't like and want to see if you can sue them?


So far, I've been diagnosed with four different disorders:


Major Depressive Disorder
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Social Anxiety Disorder
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder


However, I don't really care about the diagnosis in itself all that much. What I do care about is figuring out whether or not I ever received some sort of a mental state examination and/or diagnosed for any personality disorders without my informed consent. I suspect that I may have been assessed in some manner for personality disorders (by my psychiatrist and/or some of the other providers at his practice) at some point between the time that I first met him on the 1st of July of 2013 up until the present day. After giving my written consent, my psychologist officially tested me for personality disorders (three sessions of two hours long each, one session of one hour long in length, four sessions in total, seven hours in total, on four separate days, all throughout last month.) My psychiatrist works in a practice completely separate from that of my psychologist's. Regardless, even if I did want to sue my psychiatrist and his practice, I doubt it would amount to much as I'm reviewing my Intake Paperwork that I filled out back in July of 2013 and I see here on the “PHYSICIAN-PATIENT ARBITRATION AGREEMENT”:


NOTICE: BY SIGNING THIS CONTRACT YOU ARE AGREEING TO HAVE ANY ISSUE OF MEDICAL MALPRACTICE DECIDED BY NEUTRAL ARBITRATION AND YOU ARE GIVING UP YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY OR COURT TRIAL.


Which I had no choice but to sign if I wanted to see the psychiatrist.


originally posted by:Aeshma
I dont understand why you are asking. The diagnosis means nothing to anyone but the patient. Doctor cant share that info


Actually, they apparently can. I'm looking at the “NOTICE OF PRIVACY PRACTICES” and it states:


This notice describes how your health information may be used and disclosed and how you can access your health information.

Our office is dedicated to maintaining the privacy of your health information. By law, we may use or disclose your health information in the following circumstances:

1. We may disclose your health information to other healthcare providers involved in your care in order to better coordinate our services for you.

2. We may disclose your health information to a family member or another person responsible for your care in case of an emergency in order to reduce or prevent a serious threat to your health and safety or the health and safety of another individual or the public.

3. We may release some or all of your health information when required by Law.



originally posted by:NarcolepticBuddha
Such psychological diagnoses don't really have 'tests' so much as contrived leaps to conclusions. Hell, anybody with a keyboard can diagnose.


According to my psychological evaluation report, I've taken the following written tests:


Mr. _________ was asked to fill out a Biopsychosocial History Questionnaire, and a Client Problem Checklist, and he was given several interviews. Additionally, he was administered a Beck Depression Inventory – 2 (BDI-2), a Short Depression Scale (SDS), a Beck Anxiety Inventory (BAI), an Endler Multiaxial Anxiety Survey – Social Anxiety Scales (EMAS-SAS), a Shipley Institute of Living Scale, and a Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory – 2 (MMPI-2).


I've also been looking at my copies of my Medical Records from 2013 given to me by my psychiatrist, and I see here that I took the following written tests back then:


The Warwick-Edinburgh Mental Well-being Scale (WEMWBS), Global Assessment of Functioning, Sheehan Disability Scale, Adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1), Subjective Happiness Scale (SHS), Zung Anxiety Self-Assessment Scale, and the Zung Self-Rating Depression Scale.


I don't really consider any of these to be all that scientific. I found it a bit funny that my psychiatrist told me that the MMPI-2 “isn't very scientific” and yet he managed to diagnose me with ADHD and perscribed me Adderall back in 2013 after a single 15-minute-long session in which I could swear he was falling asleep while I was talking.


originally posted by
aughter2
Really, these personality disorder tests are VERY subjective. Read the ones about paranoia - the test is whether they believe you.


My psychologist told me that I had what he called a “schizotypal-style personality” (he decided to not call it “schizoptypal personality disorder” for some reason.) When I asked him if a different psychologist might have interpreted the test results differently so as to mean that I actually do have schizotypal personality disorder, he seemed somewhat annoyed and told me that: “yes. It is possible that a less-experienced psychologist might have called it schizotypal personality disorder. But listen, I've been doing this for over 25 years.”


originally posted by:Jason88
Meaning, they are supposed to tell the patient of their disorder among other ethical practices.


Well, it apparently does happen. Sometimes psychiatrists do not tell their patients about their disorders (such as patients with borderline personality disorder.) As stated here:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


This article discusses five core ethical and clinical questions psychiatrists should consider when they treat patients with borderline personality disorder who are or may be suicidal. These questions include whether psychiatrists should tell patients their diagnosis, what they should tell them about their suicide risk, whether they should be “always” available by phone, when they should hospitalize these patients involuntarily, and how they should respond after these patients have attempted suicide and return for further care.


I've asked both my psychologist and one of my therapists (they both work in completely different practices) and they told me that, legally, I would have to be informed: that I would be receiving a mental status examination, of my diagnosis, and of my treatment (if I had, in fact, been diagnosed with anything.) Therein lies the problem as I am very certain that I have been examined for any possible personality disorders at some point between my first session with my psychiatrist back in 2013 and my most recent session this month. I do believe that there was most likely a mental status examination done on me, especially on the 17th of December of last year without being told about it. I think that it is more than likely that my psychiatrist and/or some of the other providers of his practice may have given me some sort of mental health assessment, possibly diagnosed me with a personality disorder, may currently be treating me for it without telling me, and deny it when I ask them about it.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 09:42 PM
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a reply to: Quasiscientist

Did you tell your psychiatrist you were suicidal? Or do you talk about self harm or harming others?

If yes, then I can understand why they'd not disclose a personality disorder to you. It may further destabilize your mind (their training, not my personal beliefs). But you could reverse search any medications you're on to see if your being pharmacologically treated, which then would give you a definitive 'yes'.

If you answered 'no' and honestly believe you showed no signs of suicide or harm, even with a 'Major Depressive Disorder', then it seems plausible your personality tests came back without multiple diagnoses and you may be a bit paranoid (I mean that nicely, this is ATS after all).

And I'm not being flip, but why do you care if it's being hidden from you? Why does it matter?

Again, this isn't my line of expertise....I'm just working thru it out loud.
edit on 28-8-2016 by Jason88 because: English stuff



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Quasiscientist

If someone has a genuine problem it is dangerous to society to NOT treat them (with the caveat of the Hippocratic oath to protect human dignity).


I get this, but having a personality disorder doesn't automatically qualify your as a danger to society. You could simple be a nuisance, or heck, you could have a personality that doesn't bode well with the psychiatrist. Yes, I know... they're professionals, but give me a break.



posted on Aug, 28 2016 @ 09:51 PM
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Chrome Robot: Everything will be all right. You are in my hands. I am here to protect you. You have nowhere to go. You have nowhere to go.

-----------------------------------------

George Lucas seen how we were going when he was in high school. We are doomed. Most can feel it. Some still deny it.

It is becoming more "in your face" with each passing year.



posted on Aug, 29 2016 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: Jason88
a reply to: Quasiscientist
Did you tell your psychiatrist you were suicidal? Or do you talk about self harm or harming others?


I have never expressed any desire to commit either suicide and/or homicide whatsoever to any of my psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and/or other mental health care workers (or anybody else in my life, for that matter.) I also have no criminal history, no history of violence during my school years, was neither suspended nor expelled ever, no history of drug abuse, and no speeding tickets or any other traffic violations.


originally posted by: Jason88
a reply to: Quasiscientist
But you could reverse search any medications you're on to see if your being pharmacologically treated, which then would give you a definitive 'yes'.

If you answered 'no' and honestly believe you showed no signs of suicide or harm, even with a 'Major Depressive Disorder', then it seems plausible your personality tests came back without multiple diagnoses and you may be a bit paranoid (I mean that nicely, this is ATS after all).


Right now the only medication that I'm being prescribed is Adderall, which, as far as I can tell, isn't prescribed for any personality disorder.


originally posted by: Jason88
a reply to: Quasiscientist
And I'm not being flip, but why do you care if it's being hidden from you? Why does it matter?

Again, this isn't my line of expertise....I'm just working thru it out loud.


It's a really, really, really, really, *really*, *REALLY* long story. It could take several posts to explain but I could give it a try if anyone is willing to read through all of it.

I'm not planning on suing anybody, but that's mainly because I don't think that I'll get anywhere with it. I just want to figure out what's going on at my psychiatrist's practice, if what he's doing really is "illegal", and if there's any way that I could get evidence on him to use against him.

There's a lot of other stuff that's happened with me and his practice recently which has let me confused and frustrated, and nobody at his practice wants to give me any answers.



posted on Aug, 29 2016 @ 03:00 PM
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It requires a signature of a loved one like a spouse and a doctor if something happens, like if some guy with Alzheimer runs off and forgets who or what is happening, then he can be put through a psych eval and forced to get help. (especially in California the nanny state).




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