I created the burkini to give women freedom, not to take it away

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Christosterone

BenevolentHeretic,

But wearing a burqa is not a choice regardless of the protestations that it is...
The Burka is a child of a societal sociopathy long since bereft of humanity which I know too well and I'm glad that you don't ...

Durp durp durp, who says that wearing a burqa is not a choice ? Please provide well argumented proof for your thesis. How are you any better than Saudi regime that claims to know what woman should or should not wear ? Please, answer my questions,dont give me a horsecrap answer based on your personal experiences. Thank you

Get a few psychology books (undergraduate level at least) and learn it for yourself.
If not cognitively capable, leave the conversation to more capable minds.

Your rudeness towards Christosterone is unwarranted and disrespectful, even more so from someone that cannot analyze issues at the same level has said member.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It's painting with a broad brush, but the track record of Islam RE: treatment of women and children isn't great. (So, I've got no beef with the OP on that.) Not by the standards of most religious AND secular people in the present age.

Incidentally, it's not a stone age religion. ( Bronze age, actually. And it came long after Judaism and Christianity, so it's a more recent development even still....) So, that's just inaccurate...

My argument, put simply, is to leave the women and kids out of this fight all together. They're born into it and OFTEN heavily pressured to toe the line. Let them have the burkini at the beach. If anyone feels pressure to change it should be the men.

(I realise some women convert from Western lifestyles to Islam...but they're not a majority.)

originally posted by: SisterDelirium
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
My argument, put simply, is to leave the women and kids out of this fight all together. They're born into it and OFTEN heavily pressured to toe the line. Let them have the burkini at the beach. If anyone feels pressure to change it should be the men.

Couldn't agree more.

The op,who claims moral highground and is peace,freedom and democracy loving citizen of "western civilization" wants to decide what other women should wear,exactly the same what those he is opposing are doing. Thats what this thread boils down to.
I despise these newage fascists who try to push their agenda with same disgust as hardcore islamists. But im so glad to see that members of ATS from both wings of political spectrum are standing up against this BS

a reply to: Christosterone

you missed the point of the article completely, poor attempt.

That statement by the creator of the Burkini is so thickly shrouded in the brainwashing of some sects of Islam that is has its own virtual burka. It's like the inventor of the shock collar for dogs saying he invented it to allow dogs the freedom from being beaten for barking too much. Thanks for the freedom--let's give her a Nobel Peace Prize for this amazing invention of freedom.

Edit to add: While the whole "freedom" thing rings hollow with me, I am in full favor of anyone wearing any ridiculous garb s/he wants as long as it isn't a safety risk to someone else. Still, I wouldn't say it is a big step in the freedom of Islamic women.

a reply to: Christosterone

You are judgemental, and that is not remotely the same thing as being a "moralist". You are judging the way that these women choose to live their lives because you find it morally offensive, based on the limits of your own subjective belief system. And you have so far been rather rude and dismissive to anyone who disagrees with you. It is a control issue, not a moral one.

Feminism is about the empowerment of women, not tearing other women down for their choices. Sneering at women for being true to their beliefs and culture, labeling them as "slaves", editorializing on what they should or should not think/believe/feel based on nothing more than your own beliefs is not empowering them. It is assuming you know more than they, that you are a better judge of what they should feel than they are themselves.

Female strength comes from within, not from the exterior, and these women know that better than anyone. Who appears stronger, the spiritual woman who quietly makes her point with poise and class, who carries herself with quiet pride in her identity and her chosen place in this world; or the screeching, derisive, judgemental harpy denouncing her for making her own choices and being true to her beliefs, living her life as she chooses to live it?

Your disdain for them is sadly misplaced. You don't want these women to be "free". You want them to be slaves to your personal ideal rather than the one they prefer, nothing more. Freedom is about choice. Just because you disagree with someone else's choice doesn't make yours the "correct" one.

Mocking and degrading others for their values and beliefs does not represent morality. It represents ignorance, which we are supposed to be denying here. Pouring gasoline on a fire only results in higher flames...and people who resort to such behavior are not only part of the problem, they are the root cause of it.

Could someone please put me right. I thought people went to the beach to catch some rays, get tanned, swim in the sea maybe. That is the idea of the beach ie. no obstructions from the sun. You don't see people going lying on the beach in the snow or when it's overcast. Normally people go to the beach and take clothes off not put more on.

originally posted by: efabian
Your rudeness towards Christosterone is unwarranted and disrespectful, even more so from someone that cannot analyze issues at the same level has said member.

Actually, the author of the OP has attacked several people without any necessity and basis simply because they've dared to utter the other point of view. I'm outta here. It seems to me that narrow-mindedness cannot be comprehended by an excessively limited mind.

I always find it comical watching liberal pretzel logic trying to defend Islam's oppression of women and gays. You have multiple protected classes in conflict and the liberal brain cells are imploding unable to reconcile which they should support. Hilarious.

With that said, if some woman wants to wear a Burkini at the beach, I don't really have a problem with it. People should have the freedom to be oppressed.

You know there are Islamic countries with women heads of state right?

Of course there are bad parts of it, just like all fundamentalist but can you really speak for all the women who might actually want to dress that way? Lots of people dress ways I don't get, doesn't mean I think they are all oppressed and brainwashed.

a reply to: Edumakated

I have never seen a liberal defending how iran or Saudi or those countries like them treat people, only say they don't represent everyone..

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: [post=21164483]

However, I think this burkini ban is ridiculous. Banning this is a form of banning freedom of expression, and I am totally against it.

Forcing women to live in mobile prisons is the antithesis of expression.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Why do you assume that Muslim women aren't smart enough to know what their own choices are? How is it, that you, a non-Muslim person, know better than them what THEY choose? It's really their business, not yours.

Because we know there is Sharia Law and these women face violence and even death for not covering themselves in a mobile prison. Its a choice like the battered wife of a drunken bully chooses to stay in the relationship.

You people have gone from suck to blow. It's our business because we prefer not to see our societies turned in to 3rd world $hit holes.

Perhaps in Bahrain or Dubai women are forced to wear the burka or "burkini" but this is France where no woman is forced to wear religious garb. It is 100% the womans choice. She may feel pressure from her community to conform and comply, but that is another issue all together. The fact is in France women do have a choice of what to wear. Clothing options should not be mandated by government. At least a Muslim woman who is afraid or uncomfortable breaking that communal taboo now has another option.

This is akin to proposing a ban on mid length swim trunks because the Speedo is a less oppressive option.

a reply to: Grambler
Ah, and you have been exposed to the wonder that is extremism. Since you are not far enough right, you are automatically labelled a 'liberal'... comical. He seems to be of the "objective morality" type wherein whatever he ascribes positive or negative values to he extrapolates into some sort of authoritative notion. He can't see that his demand on women is identical to what he claims to be against.

It's silly to tell someone they can't wear a wetsuit to the beach. I don't see the appeal personally but would never fine people for wearing it. It's like they're trying to inflame tensions deliberately.

originally posted by: crayzeed
I thought people went to the beach to catch some rays, get tanned, swim in the sea maybe.

SOME people certainly do. Others go to have a cookout, watch their kids, relax, exercise their dogs, or swim.

That is the idea of the beach ie. no obstructions from the sun.

Maybe it's YOUR idea of the beach. Some people are prone to skin cancer, would like to go to the beach and want to wear garments that obstruct the sun. Some people are more modest and want to cover up more than others. Why shouldn't they have the freedom to choose? Or must everyone's swimwear adhere to your opinions?

Should these swimsuits be banned because they don't show enough skin?

a reply to: Christosterone

This is one of the strangest OPs I have read. It puts down the personal feelings of a woman who invented a bathing suit some Muslim women feel more comfortable in and/or follows their religious beliefs, insults an entire religion and insults liberals
at the same time. OK, OP wins the illogical trifecta.

I don't think I've seen a thread as bigoted as this in the last couple of years.

Banning less promiscuous clothing is ridiculous.
Carry on.

originally posted by: Syphon


This is akin to proposing a ban on mid length swim trunks because the Speedo is a less oppressive option.

In public pools and some beaches, swimming trunks ARE banned, in France.
Minor point
Just sayin'

a reply to: Christosterone

Many of the women willingly wear the garb, they feel morally/spiritually superior to those women who do not.

The ban is ridiculous.

originally posted by: vonclod
Many of the women willingly wear the garb, they feel morally/spiritually superior to those women who do not.

Oh, another person who knows how everyone else feels. Great!