The paradox of religion & atheism

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Raggedyman

The world is not the WWF, we are not fighting each other all the time

Wait. WHAT?

we are not fighting each other all the time

We're not? Who is "we" please?

Notice the OP was asking for

originally posted by: SuspiciousTom
It's only after you've been through it all that you do start to get the slightest bit of understanding as to why the world will almost never change. You'll always be ignorant if you can only see one perspective, and you come off looking like a belligerent idiot d.

That means the OP wants people to see the two different perspectives, both sides of an argument.
Accepting anothers view because, though you can be right, with no proof you cant justify it.
That accepting others have a right to a different opinion is the only way to reconciliation and peace

originally posted by: SuspiciousTomNot only because you don't have definitive proof, but because you are both arguing the same point from a different perspective. Atheists nor religious people can prove their theory. It's also important to state the idea which some people promote, their perspective of either belief is another cause for a consistent feud.

and then amazingly you get a reply

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Science when it comes over the materialist hurdle will sooner or later explain telepathy/consciousness and even be able to measure what today is unknown.

The reason they will succeed where most religions stagnate is that they in the end in their pursuit of awareness of everything follow the data instead of dumbing down to fit religion.

Many souls reject religions since they are to small to contain the real thing on all levels.

A simple statement of faith, a comment that cant be justified, from an atheistic perspective about how science is the answer to everything.

A non religious person calls for a truce on the raging war, then as if by magic, another atheist drcries the position, basing it on a faith in science

Who is "we", the fundamental atheists and religious nutters who wont accept another persons view, who demand others fall in behind them, who say I am right and you are stupid.

People like you buzz, who cant live and let live

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: enterthestage

Again my apologies, I didn't realise you butted into my conversation with little by little, bit silly wasn't I

This is not your private forum so I am not "butting in." I simply observed that you have contempt for scientific knowledge because you think it wants to disprove "God" or something similarly ridiculous and that nearly ever comment you make is either ridiculing anything not fundamental Christianity or angrily "defending" fundamental Christianity. It was an accurate observation that you will prove again and again because you are the one who has an agenda. Your agenda is to be as obnoxiously fundamental and intolerant as possible. And to make juvenile remarks and to "sass" anyone who thinks i.e. is not a fundie.

If I had have known it was you gnosisfaith I wouldn't have replied

Thanks but no thanks

Whatever that means you just proved me right.

Thanks champ!!!

a reply to: enterthestage

But in a way I will say that Raggedyman and me are having a fight between 2 ideas that cannot coexist.

Awareness and measurement vs Faith thru indoctrination. From my point of view Awareness and measurement will in the end go beyond faith until faith thru indoctrination respond to the exact same model that can be proved by measurement.

You can create a creation idea that is plausible with what we have measured and that is interesting. I also sometimes have a beef with Richard Dawkins sometimes where he ridicule things he is not aware of and hinder progress in that field. Some Christians say science is a religions and when it comes to materialism theory I agree it is based on Faith indoctrination and not on awareness and measurement since it have been proven wrong in for instance the double slit experiment. So even science have their dogmatic periods where they do not follow the data or believe things for a long time that is clearly false.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

I am with you, I don't think he will ever get it. He seems hooked on godsmack and is probably under supervision by a church of some sort that is controlling. I'm just guessing here but I think he comes here to try and ridicule those damn "free thinkers."

Deep down it's jealousy manifesting as an uneducated angry lack of true Faith and his juvenile behavior is compensation thinking that the more NON-fundie drones he insults the more righteous he is. I really feel sorry for him because he is immature, rude and disrespectful towards everyone who is not a fundie. This is what he views as righteousness so I think it is a serious problem he needs guidance to get away from.

Maybe you can help him, give it a shot. I don't have the patience to deal with the enormity of his intolerance and blindness.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle Science when it comes over the materialist hurdle will sooner or later explain telepathy/consciousness and even be able to measure what today is unknown. The reason they will succeed where most religions stagnate is that they in the end in their pursuit of awareness of everything follow the data instead of dumbing down to fit religion. Many souls reject religions since they are to small to contain the real thing on all levels.

A simple statement of faith, a comment that cant be justified, from an atheistic perspective about how science is the answer to everything.

Raggedyman. Am I really basing this on faith?

There are already today theories on how information is stored in neurons (microtubules). www.quantumconsciousness.org...

If you can create entanglement on quantum level you can clearly send and receive information between 2 human bodies. It might only be on the unconscious subjective level but there is a possibility that it surfaces to conscious subjective level.

There will be the information degradation problem where Subjective information sender -> Objective information sender -> Objective information receiver -> Subjective understanding receiver where even if information is perfectly sent thru entanglement the meaning can be degraded when it goes thru Subjective to objective and objective to subjective.

If I can already see how telepathy can be explained on this level today. Then there will be people who have more data and have worked longer on the telepathy problem that will create even more exact theories within the next 20 years.

a reply to: enterthestage

There are souls that have more patience than me for that. It is not easy leaving Plato:s cave behind. I was very sure of materials until I got proof of other things. It is sometimes not easy to leave old ideas behind to see bigger ideas.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: enterthestage

There are souls that have more patience than me for that. It is not easy leaving Plato:s cave behind. I was very sure of materials until I got proof of other things. It is sometimes not easy to leave old ideas behind to see bigger ideas.

I always look at it like this:

Discovering new information that proves your previous thoughts wrong is an essential part of learning. When I learn I was wrong about something I thank God for enlightening me. I have a loyalty only to what is true and correct and being wrong is not good but learning you are wrong means you can learn what is right.

I always start off with the thought that I know nothing. Even if I know a lot I operate as though I don't know anything until I get to where I wanted to go. Then I ponder.

God bless!!!

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

originally posted by: LittleByLittle Science when it comes over the materialist hurdle will sooner or later explain telepathy/consciousness and even be able to measure what today is unknown. The reason they will succeed where most religions stagnate is that they in the end in their pursuit of awareness of everything follow the data instead of dumbing down to fit religion. Many souls reject religions since they are to small to contain the real thing on all levels.

A simple statement of faith, a comment that cant be justified, from an atheistic perspective about how science is the answer to everything.

Raggedyman. Am I really basing this on faith?

There are already today theories on how information is stored in neurons (microtubules). www.quantumconsciousness.org...

If you can create entanglement on quantum level you can clearly send and receive information between 2 human bodies. It might only be on the unconscious subjective level but there is a possibility that it surfaces to conscious subjective level.

There will be the information degradation problem where Subjective information sender -> Objective information sender -> Objective information receiver -> Subjective understanding receiver where even if information is perfectly sent thru entanglement the meaning can be degraded when it goes thru Subjective to objective and objective to subjective.

If I can already see how telepathy can be explained on this level today. Then there will be people who have more data and have worked longer on the telepathy problem that will create even more exact theories within the next 20 years.

Please believe what ever you want
Allow me the same choice

Yes I think you have an unfounded faith in science
I understand that you think you don't
I can get on with my life, you should as well.

It's interesting you choose the word cave for where I am at in life
I guess you must be one of the enlightened ones, the better humans, the superior human compared to us religious rock apes

Holier than thou attitude by our atheist friends, I guess that means you are more evolved than the poor old raggedy one, maybe a day will come when Christians are sent to the camps like the Jews were, clearly us cave dwellers deserve no respect.



And I love your word theory, I have a theory, it's all spiritual, it's not of this earth, it's woo, it's science understanding the unnatural world or trying to

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Oh, stop it already. I never give up on people if we disagree or get mischaracterized in a thread or two--hell, I'm not without fault in that regard.

I'm sure that we'll have plenty of time to mischaracterize each other on future threads, too

Hopefully along the way, though, you'll start realizing that I'm not some ideologically driven right-wing Conservative

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SlapMonkey

No, I don't believe it will be too late for you, only that things will get much, much harder.

Well, it's a good thing that I have a good work ethic, then, isn't it?

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Oh, I already got that part. You're a thinker - I like it.

@Rageddyman:

Plato's cave.
If you don't get what it means, then look it up. It's a concept of how people see the world - not a literal "where you are."

@enterthestage:

WWF meaning World Wrestling Federation. Fake fighting. Stage wrestling by actors.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Holier than thou attitude by our atheist friends, I guess that means you are more evolved than the poor old raggedy one, maybe a day will come when Christians are sent to the camps like the Jews were, clearly us cave dwellers deserve no respect.

As long as you follow the golden rule I have not wish to part you from anyone else. Your fruits deserve respect if they are good. Your views is another matter. When I agree with you I will say I agree. When I do not then I will say I do not and tell you why I do not agree.

I have a theory, it's all spiritual,

I agree with that theory but I have the urge to understand how the spiritual and 3D+1T are manifested.

So if you tell me about how people are laying hands on a soul to heal them. Then I need to know how it works. How energetic body manipulation happens and how it is connected to the placebo effect and what happens on a quantum physics scale? If there are different ways to do laying of hands and if there are ways to maximize the benefit?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Oh, I already got that part. You're a thinker - I like it.

@Rageddyman:

Plato's cave.
If you don't get what it means, then look it up. It's a concept of how people see the world - not a literal "where you are."

@enterthestage:

WWF meaning World Wrestling Federation. Fake fighting. Stage wrestling by actors.

Was that you who said that? I don't think it was but either way I knew that, I remember when they had to become WWE and was not happy about it because I had loved WWF as a kid and then when Stone Cold was doing WHAT???

Hilarious times! I said that because I thought it humorous that he called the WWE...WWF. Because it was a long time ago and I thought everyone knew that they had to give up the name to the World Wildlife Fund.

I guess thanks for offering to clarify but I was just playing around with his mistake.

a reply to: enterthestage

No, it wasn't I who said it - I was just trying to clarify, because that's what I do. Try to clarify.

Anyway - carry on. This forum can keep you going all day if you like....with nary a glimmer of progress in the thought process or comprehension department.....

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Oh, I already got that part. You're a thinker - I like it.

@Rageddyman:

Plato's cave.
If you don't get what it means, then look it up. It's a concept of how people see the world - not a literal "where you are."

@enterthestage:

WWF meaning World Wrestling Federation. Fake fighting. Stage wrestling by actors.

Thanks buzz, never heard of platos cave but I kinda got the gist of the comment

Simply he is smarter than us religious cave dwellers
I think I can take the fact that he thinks he is smarter than anyone who believes in religion quite literally, I think that was made very clear, can't see I could take it any other way can you?

I think I got what he meant very clearly for a cave dweller, clearly he hates, has no respect for those who don't accept what he accepts
Considering the topic, I kinda think it got lost on him

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Oh, so now you agree it could be spiritual, how does that work with science?
You may need to check your direction, it seems a little confused

a reply to: Raggedyman

I think I got what he meant very clearly for a cave dweller, clearly he hates, has no respect for those who don't accept what he accepts
Considering the topic, I kinda think it got lost on him

No, Rag.

You DON'T get it. You don't get it at all. There is an analogy (allegory) that Plato used to describe how humans see reality - do trouble yourself to learn it, rather than hissing and spitting. It predates Jesus, so no worries there.

ETA:
here you go....

It's a "TED talk" thing - aimed at adults, it is an animated mini-lesson. Please do watch it!



There's a part of me that thinks and hopes that maybe you'd like to join the expedition....

I think you will find the dialogue far more interesting on the next level - a 2nd-tier series of discussion.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: LittleByLittle

Oh, so now you agree it could be spiritual, how does that work with science?
You may need to check your direction, it seems a little confused

It works perfectly when you follow the data.

It works very badly when you create faith dogma and do not follow the data like materialism. In those cases you have very little progress since the scientist are convinced they are right and they do not push the frontier of understanding forward.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Ok so we have three choices re the aim of the comment

Choice one, the comment was neutral, LbL was suggesting we are equals
Choice 2 The allegory was used to say that religious people are smarter
Or
Choice 3
Religious people are dumber

The allegory is irrelevant to my point, LbLs attitude of "I am smarter than you" was what I was interested in
Thanks anyway


So yes while you can say I don't get your message, I am not interested in your message, my issue was the attitude and the superiority behind the comment from little by little

I am not sure I could put that any simpler

LbL thinks I am a cave dweller, he is the enlightened and I despise him for that.