Alien Life Is Now (Almost) Impossible to Deny

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: BlackProject
Our galaxy contains a minimum of 100 billion planets. Of those, most are small planets like ours. Statistically, every star would have at least one planet. This means that the chances of life and habitable planets in our galaxy alone is overwhelmingly high. So high that it's impossible to deny that life is out there.

Wrong. Until we understand how life came to be on Earth, and until we find evidence of it elsewhere, we can't say for sure that there is life anywhere but Earth. One hundred billion seems like a lot, unless the odds of life rising up from dead chemicals is more like 1 in a quintillion. Then maybe not so much.

There could be multitudes of Quintillions of planets in our universe though. We still don't know how big the Universe is really.

There are two ways to look at this, both scientifically valid. You either have a theory that life is probably rare or that life is probably abundant. Neither view is wrong and neither can be proven wrong. The only thing that IS wrong would be to denigrate ir insult those that have the opposing view.

Only one view has evidence for it at the moment, granted that evidence is very weak.

But we should always be respectful.

Living in the pool
They soon forget about the seaa reply to: BlackProject

originally posted by: schuyler
Every time one of these threads comes up I wonder who has ever denied it. I have personally never met anyone who has denied there is life elsewhere. To me it's a Straw Man argument. Somebody decides there are "billions and billions" of stars, therefore....life! as if no one has ever thought of that before. Reveling in their new-found brilliance they decide there must be a whole lot of deniers out there, so they decide to show these unseen deniers a thing or two and "prove" it by showing overwhelming numbers. Now there may actually be a few curmudgeons in the woodwork who are deniers, but they certainly are not culturally significant any more than flat-earthers, of which there are probably many more.

The Bottom Line is that the argument is completely unnecessary. And when you get right down to it, it doesn't actually prove anything. You're just playing with statistics.

Agreed. They also assume that "life" means earth-like world, with animals walking and flying around etc.

No doubt the universe is teaming with life of some kind, but earth-like worlds are not just a matter of a statistic based on x number of rocky worlds in the Goldilocks Zone. That's a false assumption, that x number of them will automatically produce a certain number of earth-like worlds.

We must also consider the uniqueness and specialness of what makes life on earth what it is and extrapolate from there, in particular, taking a look at things like the earth-moon-sun configuration, relative position within the galaxy (as someone else pointed out, closer to the galactic center, you have detrimental super nova material being ejected all over the place amid more tightly packed stars), the location of Jupiter serving as a solar system vacuum cleaner to mitigate ELE's. Earth is also in the sights of a neutron star, galactic blazer (Cygnus X3) which has been bombarding us with cosmic radiation which helps to accelerate evolution via random mutation (there are only one or two such objects in our galaxy).

It's a little juvenile to just assume that earth-like worlds are all over the place within our own galaxy, when we fail to consider precisely what has produced this Earth-like world that we live on, where, because of our single, giant moon, the earth is able to retain it's axis on the elliptical to produce the seasons via the process of perihelion and solstice, and retain a relatively fast rotational period (without tidal locking to the sun), allow for liquid water to be present over 90% of the planet's surface, enjoy relatively stable weather patterns, all of which contribute to long-tern, sustainable evolutionary development.

What's needed is a true and thorough galactic survey using an instrument like the Square Kilometer Array (coming on-line in 2020) that's capable of picking of the bio-signature of the atmosphere of a rocky water world to prove that it's a living world that may be earth-like in some respects.

On a positive, more optimistic note, we do know that there is at least one such world in our own galaxy, which does appear to bode well for the probability of other such worlds in the cosmos if the lowest probability is somewhere between 0 and 1 for any given galaxy.

I think even when we are able to conduct a full galactic survey that we will be lucky to find another one in our own galaxy where the conditions suitable for another earth-like world have been met.

If, otoh, you subscribe, as I do, to the idea of a super-intelligent design that favors life and in particular, this life here on Earth, then that would presume that there was some sort of astroengineering at work in the galactic formation that produced our world by design and by anticipation - in which case what could be done once in a galaxy, would be done as often as possible ie: God surely has more such tricks up His sleeve and seems to have a penchant for variety.

deep thoughts..

I've often pondered about the similarities and differences of what sentient, technologically advanced life, and life experience, might be like on another somewhat earth-like world. I think that their "reality" would be radically different in terms of how they would perceive the universe and their place in it, but at the same time, perhaps somewhat paradoxically, while their perceptual reality would be "out of this world", nevertheless, birds of some kind would still make noises and fly, and the breeze would blow through grasses and trees, and a bubbling brook would be heard to the sight of a beautiful sunset, the appreciation of which would not be lost on them and in that way we would both share something of the same vital life experience.

Are they in a sinless heaven maybe? Or are they so caught up in their social and technological pursuits that they simply fail to notice it, and carry on while taking it for granted? Do they laugh sometimes for no reason at all when caught up in the wonderment of it all? Do they too appreciate the nature of a good joke told by God (but without a punchline)? Do they possess mirth and charm, or might their purely logical hive mind, say, preclude that experience as intrinsic to the nature of things?

Would it be lonely at the end of science, able to see and know all things as they are, and go wherever you may go, and then come back again?

Do they believe in God, and what do they think about humanity's role in the cosmic drama?

I think they get the joke but that our own inability to do so perhaps might frighten them within the context of the prime directive.., but, that they are absolutely thrilled to be given something to examine, something to do, and to participate in again by simply observing, surveying and then on to the next place to see what's going on - but, back home, their breeze still blows, and their moon is a midnight sun mimicking the sun, just like it is here on earth (with only the smallest deviation from that vital configuration).

Our job is to make the aliens laugh, I think, but then to make darn sure that we come to fully understand that the joke's on us, and on them.

So I have this vision of all races of aliens someday returning to their home world, from the Earth and it's place in the grand cosmic drama and play of things, to the alien equivalent of ticker tape parades and hats in the air from here to kingdom come in a grand celebration, and not to anyone's chagrin where it may be said that "the last are first, and the first last, all with ears to hear (or their equivalent) let them hear!"
What, you don't think they read ATS?

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: DarkvsLight29 Not sure why others are arguing that there isn't life on other planets around the universe?

You, too, huh? My original question to the OP in this thread was WHO, exactly, argues that there is no life on other planets? And so far no one has come up with anyone. So why do people keep asking? NOBODY CLAIMS THAT! NOBODY SAYS THAT! So why do you keep claiming there are people who do? Like I said earlier, there may be a curmudgeon or two somewhere who claims that, but culturally speaking, it's a complete NON issue. Nobody claims that. Why do people feel inclined to say that they do?

If it is a non-issue, who are these nobodies you are claiming exists that says they do ?

Anyways, the entire issue is a non issue, we do not even know that much about our own planet and we have people thinking they know something about the "Universe".

A much bigger issue is, and should be, why do we NOT know more about this Earth, and how it works ??

originally posted by: BlackProject

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: BlackProject
Life comes from acids colliding. In basic terms. You only need a acidic environment and you get basic life. Those planets that come back from equations as (maybes) are all deemed terrestrial planets and therefore have the same (acidic) building blocks as earth.

Assuming that at some point in the last 14 billion years some colliding acids on Earth decided to reproduce, that still doesn't mean it happened anywhere else, or it would be happening everywhere, and in many, many different forms than just the single kind we find here on Earth.

So me. Show me where it happened more than once. Ever.

Your asking for something that has obviously not been found yet. You ask me this question just like a religious person would ask a scientist where did everything come from. They also do not know the answer to that question but it is clear that there is a progression to understanding and seeing the direction advancements will come from.

The exact same beginning procedure for life on earth will be happening elsewhere on another rocky planet, there is not many requirements for there to be before there is another planet like earths. To the same degree, life does not need earth requirements to produce life.

Any scientist who is trying to find something based on what is actually a very Religious View, that what he observes here on Earth somehow must lead to elsewhere, also does not know the answer.

Why so much effort is put forth into speculating on what is likely happening while COMPLETELY not understanding even the most basic components of how life really works is incredible.

Talk about living in utter fantasy land, they are no different than the ones praying to God.

a reply to: BlackProject

Statistically, every star would have at least one planet. This means that the chances of life and habitable planets in our galaxy alone is overwhelmingly high. So high that it's impossible to deny that life is out there.

You speak like the process of Abiogenesis happens with the flip of a switch. Most theorize that the process is near impossibly replicated, no matter how many "exoplanets."

a reply to: ParasuvO

Praying to God though could, from a certain point of view, be the most sane and rational thing to do..

But it would be presumptuous to assume earth-like worlds everywhere by just expecting that what we see here will repeat itself again and again, but to refrain from making the attempt to find it might also hinder our ability to, in the process, discover and/or re-discover our true place in it, which would not be unlike a religious experience.

Science itself might one day point a sturdy finger at cosmic intelligent design for all you know.

I don't think you can conflate the two with a disparaging remark about being in relationship with God or paying to God.

If they know about us, then it's not out of the realm of possible that alien civilizations are also converted Christians who understand something about the parable of the land owner and the rebellious farmhands who didn't heed a certain moral imperative. Anything's possible.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, because I am a strong supporter of a theory that there must be alien life out there.

Now, imagine this. During the 4.5 billion year history of Earth, countless things had to happen to allow life to rise to the forefront, and countless more for that life to develop an intelligence to the level where space flight and interstellar communication might one day be possible.

Even amount the billions of species on Earth, imagine the countless number of things that had to happen for ONE of them to develop scientific know how and knowledge. When you start multiplying the odds of each occurrence together, the number gets very high, very very quickly.

Now, imagine that a similar type of event pattern happened somewhere else in the universe, to a point where life on another planet has developed at almost the same time as us, has developed a similar quest to want to head to the stars, wonder what else is out there, and all happen within the 50,000 or so years that humans have been on the Earth, and especially within the last 100 or so years that humans have had long distance communication ability with radio waves.

As strong a supporter as I am, the odds of such an incredible series of events happening somewhere else are ridiculously astronomical, and the odds that they happened so that another life form would have similar abilities as us wihin a few hundred or a few thousand years of our own development, well, the odds are off the chart.

While I'm a strong supporter of alien life, and agree that there are billions or trillions of stars in the sky, the odds of this happening are probably a lot higher than the stars in the sky.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: BlackProject

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: BlackProject
Life comes from acids colliding. In basic terms. You only need a acidic environment and you get basic life. Those planets that come back from equations as (maybes) are all deemed terrestrial planets and therefore have the same (acidic) building blocks as earth.

Assuming that at some point in the last 14 billion years some colliding acids on Earth decided to reproduce, that still doesn't mean it happened anywhere else, or it would be happening everywhere, and in many, many different forms than just the single kind we find here on Earth.

So me. Show me where it happened more than once. Ever.

Your asking for something that has obviously not been found yet. You ask me this question just like a religious person would ask a scientist where did everything come from. They also do not know the answer to that question but it is clear that there is a progression to understanding and seeing the direction advancements will come from.

The exact same beginning procedure for life on earth will be happening elsewhere on another rocky planet, there is not many requirements for there to be before there is another planet like earths. To the same degree, life does not need earth requirements to produce life.

Any scientist who is trying to find something based on what is actually a very Religious View, that what he observes here on Earth somehow must lead to elsewhere, also does not know the answer.

Why so much effort is put forth into speculating on what is likely happening while COMPLETELY not understanding even the most basic components of how life really works is incredible.

Talk about living in utter fantasy land, they are no different than the ones praying to God.

Most scientific advances in history came from not completely understanding something and speculating if there could be another way.

Including the development of your computer. Alan Turing decided that there had to be a better way of breaking the Enigma code, and built an automated machine. He then speculated that the Germans probably signed each message with "Heil Hitler" which allowed the allies to win the war. Winston Churchill once referred to Alan Turing as "the single largest contribution by any single individual in the entire war".

All I know is is if life is out there there and people alive on Earht know it and are choosing to say hide it, well, I want to grab them and choke them until their faces are blue. I won't kill them. Just make em blue. I'm no a murderer.

Now I know thye might have good reasons. Maybe it's live or die for us. Still, I still want to choke them. Because whether it's good news or bad news or ultimately bad, manipulating the truth stinks like excrement. And I have to also wonder how one concludes teh truth must be concealed. How pretentious is that? How could we know, unless a God of superior alien race informed us?

And OP, I think there's too much fog everywhere to conclude anyting about life elsewhere. And believe me I'm aware how big the galaxy is. I've read most of the research which has cropped up over the years. There's so much. Frankly, I want to believe it. I want to say life is out there. But I can't. I'm still in the cave, you see. All I see are these shadows. In this place, doubt enters my mind. Doubt festers. I've got ghosts haunting me. So I can't. We have ot wiat for the big reveal. SETI. Or astronomers. Or astrobiologists. Or something which can't be denied or dismissed.

This guy still thinks we found life on Mars:
en.wikipedia.org - Gilbert Levin...

HIs website (I linked some of his writings):
www.gillevin.com - Mars Research...

And he'll die soon. He's old. The science community mostly disagrees with his conclusions. He's like an old abandoned ship.

We may yet find life (most likely extinct) on Mars. And it's even possible we'll find it somewhere else in our solar system. Who knows where we'll find it. It might be in the strangest places--making it harder to find.

a reply to: babybunnies

And then happen between two star systems to make the trip practical or right down possible. And that's if a ship can harness enough power?

a reply to: BlackProject

I see it like this. If you were the only person in America North and South. The only other person that you have statistical evidence to prove is out there on the entire planet is somewhere in Africa. What are your odds of meeting him/her. Why should you even care? Lets say that there is one person on every continent statistically speaking. Nothing they do will ever affect you and you will never meet them. So who cares. Might as well be alone. Its the same difference if they cant interact with you on any level.

I tend to agree with you , but one toke of a pipe and your as good as making first contact
but of course we arent allowed to discuss that here !

probably the closest we have to aliens and we cant even discuss it !

now thats a conspiracy

Based on my recent "fungus" induced ego death experience...aliens are VERY real. Though the ones I met were far from the mainstream idea of what an alien is. I'm still trying to understand what those entities were/are.

I'd have to side with Terrence McKenna and agree that psilocybin IS, in and of itself, alien to this planet and the likely cause is aliens who wish to observe or contact us, who dare to experience such removal from this reality...or dimension.

I am not so sure they will reside on another planet in our realm though.

I mean, based on vastness of the universe, there is a good chance other life exists off earth...but they are either extinct or evolved to the point that humans in spaceships will never find them.

Consider the fact that if an alien was viewing earth from 100 million light years away...in our dimension, they would be witnessing the dinosaurs on earth.

originally posted by: sapien82
I tend to agree with you , but one toke of a pipe and your as good as making first contact
but of course we arent allowed to discuss that here !

probably the closest we have to aliens and we cant even discuss it !

now thats a conspiracy

I completely agree!!!! My post above is likely going to be taken down for T&C violation for mentioning the use of an active ingredient in a very common fungus. Yet, aside from seeing a UFO as a child...which I really don't know if it was alien or human...the recent experience of mine is the most staggering contact I have had with other entities not of this dimension.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

crazy that as a species we spend billions making machines to find life , when there is a plant here when used allows us to do it for free ! and also some of our fungal friends!

We are allowed to discuss treason and conspiracies regarding state secrets etc but cant discuss plants

ok cool we have t's n c's which prevent us from discussing plants outlawed by a government , yet we are allowed to dicuss # that the government doesnt want us to be discussing like civil matters and things that can cause political unrest, but the Gods forbid we discuss a plant !


#in terms and conditions! what a bunch of #ebags

so ATS will openly discuss things like MK ultra , which the US government got in hot water for and we can all openly discuss these things and others which are still relevant and out in the open , julian assange , bradley manning , ISIS , nuclear wars etc but ATS still # it when discussing plants all of the most anti government rhetoric but you guys really drop the ball when it comes to the one thing which governments really dont like and thats consciousness shifting plants!
so much for freedom of speech eh!

get the # outta here !

it's a big conspiracy , ATS are government run to gather intel for NSA , CIA etc, thats why they wont discuss drugs because they know its a government psy op and they know consciousness shifting plants will reduce our allegiance to said governments

a reply to: BlackProject

Just because we have yet to find it or detect ( at least to the publics knowledge ) does not mean it is not there.

Yeah and it also doesn't mean it is either.

Your asking for something that has obviously not been found yet.

and you are telling us that there is alien life and its almost impossible to deny.

I really don't get the point.

Who is denying that alien life could exist?

Was this thread some lame attempt to try and draw in a very small minority of people that believe we are alone in the universe so you could debate?

You make a lot of very broad statements my little blue friend.

You mean like suggesting the Drake equation and simple calculations?

So why not do them?

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: BlackProject

Just because we have yet to find it or detect ( at least to the publics knowledge ) does not mean it is not there.

Yeah and it also doesn't mean it is either.

Your asking for something that has obviously not been found yet.

and you are telling us that there is alien life and its almost impossible to deny.

I really don't get the point.

Who is denying that alien life could exist?

Was this thread some lame attempt to try and draw in a very small minority of people that believe we are alone in the universe so you could debate?

You make a lot of very broad statements my little blue friend.

You mean like suggesting the Drake equation and simple calculations?

So why not do them?

Why people reply to me pointing out that some people do not deny there is life, is not my point. I just wanted a discussion about the topic of life elsewhere or, if others had something else to add. Your ability to look around what I said and deem that I am making out others deny it completely is obviously not my point.

Thanks for more attention to my thread, appreciate it.

Simply because we havent discovered it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Lets see someone do the drake equation with. .1, 5, and 10 in the equation, and see what they come up with.

originally posted by: jjsr420
Simply because we havent discovered it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Lets see someone do the drake equation with. .1, 5, and 10 in the equation, and see what they come up with.

You get a value based on some assumptions. So your result is not a fact. The only real number we have to work with is zero.