Russia sends message to NATO through their drills.

a reply to: Xcathdra

your point? youll say anything to dodge the fact that georgians slaughtered peaceful civilians. why are you so afraid of the truth? what causes you to hold on to your beliefs so tightly that you ignore facts? it doesn't hurt to change your mind if you are strong minded.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

No thats the lie Russia used to justify their invasions and you bought it hook line and sinker.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Have we ever lied to invade a country?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Stalin slaughtered 20 million civilians.
Putin slaughtered upwards of 100k civilians in the first Chechen war.
Putin slaughtered upwards of 200k civilians in the second Chechen war.

Separatists in S. Ossetia kicked the party off by shelling villages when the Georgian government didn't give into their demands (russian) for autonomy. When Georgia responded to the shelling Russia used it as an excuse to invade.

Russia used the "killing civilians / ethnic russians" bs to justify their invasion. Just as they used the same lie in Crimea. Just as they used the same lie to invade E. Ukraine. Just as they used the same lie in Transnistria. Just as Hitler used the same lie to invade his neighbors.

Now that you have the facts instead of Russian taking points maybe you can take something away from all of this - like correct knowledge. Based on your argument you seem to be ok when Putin slaughters civilians.

why?

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Put it in context with the conversation I am having with avoiceofreason.

To answer your question as a stand alone - yes. The issue is when people refuse to recognize Russian atrocities when they try to justify Russian actions, somehow thinking their is a difference when none exist.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You are right and I was on a different plane in this argument (yours being more linear and correct). I still want to stress they play the same game we do, and it's important not to be condescending towards them.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: Xcathdra

You are right and I was on a different plane in this argument (yours being more linear and correct). I still want to stress they play the same game we do, and it's important not to be condescending towards them.

I don't think anyone is being condescending towards Russia. I think putin takes a lack of respect he thinks other countries should show, in his opinion, as a personal affront. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept respect is earned and not just given. In my opinion its hard to give Putin's Russia respect when they refuse to respect their neighbors / neighbors borders.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I really understand what your saying, and to a degree I agree. Is what he is doing wrong, yes. Am I in a position to judge, no. But we do the same thing. And on top of that, we essentially deployed economic warfare against them and cut the ruble in half. While that was a reaction towards their aggression in Ukraine and Crimea, we hit the citizens, not the leaders. Imagine your retirement cut in half. Is that the proper way to deal with it by hindering the lives of citizens? Is that not equivalent to physical aggression? While you are just in your standing, and to be honest I agree with you, I think Putin had been mature in his response to this.

Tell me. Who is "Russia?"

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
Tell me. Who is "Russia?"

Russia, the answer was in the question.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The "economic warfare" you speak of was a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It was a response to Russian actions and not a catalyst. We hit the leaders with targeted sanctions. The fact banks were included in that list is not the fault of the US. Its because the banks there are run by compatriots of Putin.

Secondly any nation has the right to determine who they will do business with. I don't see people complaining about the sanctions Russia has imposed on Ukraine, the US, Canada, the EU, Norway, Australia etc... The sanctions imposed were designed to have little impact on the Russian people which is why it targeted individuals and certain sectors of their economy. While you will have fall out in the civilian sector the sanctions were not targeting the civilian population / civilian sectors of the economy.

Also its been made very clear to Russia the sanctions would be removed if they withdraw their military from Ukraine. So Russia was given a way out. The sanctions were also introduced in phases to give Russia the ability to save face and their economy. Putin chose a different path.

A mature response would be not invading his neighbor while questioning the legal status of Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia. it would be acting as if they were in the 21st century with the rest of us instead of acting like its the 1980's and Putin thinking he runs the Soviet Union.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
Tell me. Who is "Russia?"

Russia, the answer was in the question.

You maybe do not understand. "Russia" and NATO are fig leaves. These terms cover the tracks of the culprits. You can't hang Russia or NATO. You can't imprison "the USA." That's the point; you can hang and imprison people. When you see things like "USA sold weapons to the Taliban," you are seeing a cover up. People invade countries, people sell armorments, not countries. Those people cover their tracks by using terms like "Russia" and "NATO."

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Bravo,sorry for my sarcasm. But I do understand. I get both are immune as are our leaders. Though I think things may get so grotesque one day that we hold our system accountable. I will probably be wrong but one can dream.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Except when not at war with the people. our leaders, of any nation really, represents the country. Obama represents the US as a country just as Putin represents Russia as a country.

in my arguments when referring to a nation state / terrorist group, the reference is to the people leading said country or group.

Yes the US sells weapons to other countries / groups and that phrasing is correct. I disagree with the notion that its a coverup.

Speaking for the US an individual is not empowered to legally enter into agreements with a foreign nation, let alone conduct foreign policy or trade. In our system the President is legally / constitutionally responsible for those actions. So from the aspect of the US the government is in fact acting and not the person as an individual. its also the basis for being able to search vehicles / peoples / items coming into the US. In that regard the legal basis is protecting the US as a country. Its why search and seizure laws in our country are different at the border than everywhere else internally.

"Russia" is run by Putin. "NATO" is an alliance representing 25 + sovereign nations whose representatives are sent by the governments of said countries.

There is a difference between people and countries - both in every day language as well as legal terms.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Your arguement is sound. That being said, shy do we get to do our deeds when the UN disapproves, yet when another power does something more justified we hit their people? Yes we had targeted sanctions, but who is suffering i ask. See, we could put allusion around something, it appears we are taking the high road yet we affect civilians.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

There is nothing stopping any country on this planet from sanctioning the US or any other nation for their actions. The issue with the UN is the ability of a few nations to veto things. Trying to use the UN to sanction Russia would be like trying to sanction the US.

The veto would be used to block the action. Hence the reason for acting outside the UN when it comes to who does trade with who. While Russia complains about the sanctions being illegal they don't sound the same tone when they sanction other nations.

The Russian people are suffering because of the actions of the Russian government. All Russia has to do is withdraw from Ukraine and the sanctions will be removed.

a reply to: Xcathdra

As will we at some point.

a reply to: Xcathdra

It is Russia who self-sanctioned themselves by banning many european foods to hurt the people generally, compared to the more personal sactions against Russia power oligarchs put on by EU.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Putin is still in the KGB mindset, that all of the former USSR and former Warsaw Pact countries ought to rightfully belong to Russia as subservient vassals, like what the Mongols did to Russia.

He doesn't have any deep emotional recognition why they are "former" USSR and WP.

Furthermore, he projects this attitude onto NATO and EU and assumes they are puppets run by USA (they aren't), because he can't imagine otherwise.

As was once said of the Bourbons, the French royal house overthrown in the Revoution: "They have learned nothing, and forgotten nothing."

a reply to: Xcathdra

stalin? why you talking about him? ohh cuz you hate russians. good for you.

putin was president during the first Chechen war? thats weird cuz no he wasnt. putin inherited the chechen war and he ended it and now Chechnya is a peaceful state.

you wanna talk about how many people have been killed by america too? or do you just gloss over that since instead of seing reality for what it is you just treat the whole thing as an us vs them type thing?

and there is video evidence that georgians attacked first and thats exactly what the victims of the attack say. what exactly is the evidence that backs your point of view? i didnt buy anything, i saw the video, i watched interviews with multiple citizens of south ossetia and i made a decision based on that. ive never even read or seen what russia says happened.

you didnt give me any facts, you just refuse to recognize the evidence and go by whatever line youve been fed by the west.

but hey i recognize that you dont actually care about other people and just want your team to be "the good guys" because you have a mentality that this is a game of football rather than a complex series of issues between countries with their own interests.

please stop being such a russophobe. being an open minded person who stands independently isnt gonna hurt you. quit being a useful idiot to your leaders. putin is a dick and im not scared to say it. he kills people. he lies. he steals. but in the end russian people are far better off than they used to be. as a utilitarian i like this.

you have no problem with america invading countries and causing chaos with no real benefit to the American people. so why do you have a problem when russians start wars that actually resolve problems and improve peoples quality of life?