Why don't christians follow the laws of Leviticus and kill homosexuals, adulterers, etc.?

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Huh....then OT God went from "kill, kill, kill" all those who He wanted....then changed it to "love your enemies" through Jesus.

Here is where the truth should be shown. No scripture or brow beating unless you demand references.

When you said "through Jesus" that rang my bell. Are you aware that the Creator in the OT is the same Creator in the NT?

I don't think so....anymore. I used to. Yahweh can NOT be Jesus' Father. They are radically different.

if what I say is true then it was the celestial Jesus who did the killing. After all isn't He the celestial Jesus who is the Creator of all terrestrial visibility and invisibility? So actually the killing was not done by one and love by another. It is all of one Creator and His Father. Now be aware that the Father did not create except through His Son. The Father is one but the Son is two. The Father is Spirit or Likeness but the Son is Image and a portion of His Father. Nevertheless, the Son created physicality and the Father gave physicality life.

When you infer that God was in charge in the OT and Jesus is in charge in the NT is not of the doctrine of Jesus.

Can you please elaborate on this "doctrine of Jesus"? I mean, I would like to hear it....only using HIS words. Not only that....but can you try to rectify how Jesus treated women as equals, yet Yahweh didn't...nor did Paul. Here's what I think...the Bible has been tampered with, big time.


Jesus was and is in charge in both OT and NT as He is the Creator who you call God in the OT. Jesus is not all love as you understand the word Love. Some will be destroyed and yet loved by Jesus. The doctrine which is now adopted by most churches is that of political correctness which teaches that God is nothing but love. No one loses and everyone goes to heaven. In order to embrace that doctrine one must then divide a bad god with a good god and the result is a lie.

Actually, that is in SOME churches. (Joel Osteen comes to mind). Most churches leave the Savior's words in the dust in favor of Pauline doctrine. Most Christians can't even HEAR Jesus over Paul. They really can't. They say they love Jesus, yet follow Paul....and act like him, as well.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…Matthew 7:22-23

Judging Others

1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Ask, and It Will Be Given

7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

The Golden Rule

12“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easya that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Build Your House on the Rock

24“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

The Authority of Jesus

28And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.


Just to add.....NONE of those teachings even REMOTELY come close to Yahweh's personality or disposition. NOR, do they match up with Saul/Paul's "doctrine. Jesus didn't have a "doctrine". He taught the true heart of the Father....and showed it, as well.

a reply to Seede..

Just who did the scribes, Pharisee's, and Saducees teach from? Yahweh. It wasn't just the oral traditions that Christians have been taught is the reason Jesus got on to them. It was the very law of Yahweh.... and Jesus flipped it upside down on it's head.
Not ONE Christian on here has yet explained that.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to Seede..

Just who did the scribes, Pharisee's, and Saducees teach from? Yahweh. It wasn't just the oral traditions that Christians have been taught is the reason Jesus got on to them. It was the very law of Yahweh.... and Jesus flipped it upside down on it's head.
Not ONE Christian on here has yet

That's false, after the Babylonian captivity the Pharisees were teaching the people from the Rabbinical traditions and teachings, and elevating them to preeminence over the Tenakh. Jesus condemned them for this, He told them that they had made the word of God to none effect by the traditions of their elders. (See Mark chapter 7)

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to Seede..

Just who did the scribes, Pharisee's, and Saducees teach from? Yahweh. It wasn't just the oral traditions that Christians have been taught is the reason Jesus got on to them. It was the very law of Yahweh.... and Jesus flipped it upside down on it's head.
Not ONE Christian on here has yet

That's false, after the Babylonian captivity the Pharisees were teaching the people from the Rabbinical traditions and teachings, and elevating them to preeminence over the Tenakh. Jesus condemned them for this, He told them that they had made the word of God to none effect by the traditions of their elders. (See Mark chapter 7)

Please give it a rest on the youtubes, bro.
Do you think that maybe those priests were influenced by the Babylonian captivity? Ezra was.
The Tanakh was the Torah (which wasn't just the oral tradition). IN IT was animal sacrifice, women being told to drink a bitter herb if accused of adultery (and if their stomach's rotted then they were guilty), being unclean for having a dang period, being killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, no one with any type of deformity could be included...and that included those deemed "unclean". Which would also include women on their periods or giving birth...or lepers, or touching a dead carcass, or (fill in the blank) Wow.
So the "god" who apparently created all of above, decided that animals needed to die unmercifully for the people's sins, women poisoned if accused of adultery, people who had no control over being born lame or deformed...or contracting a disease, or someone who just wanted to make a fire and stay warm on the Sabbath, were going to be "dealt with"...without mercy.
Oh...but, said "creator" is loving and merciful. ok.
THOSE WERE NOT ORAL TRADITIONS! They were in the Tanakh (Torah) that we have today in our very Bible's. Jesus was coming up against a religion of deception that encompassed way more than oral traditions...it was the "god of this world's religion"....and they killed Jesus for challenging it....down to every last law.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I guess you didn't read Mark 7. Jesus never condemned the Tenakh, He condemned the Pharisee's doctrines from the Misnah and Talmud, which they put above the Tenakh.

From Mark 7:

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Just who did the scribes, Pharisee's, and Saducees teach from? Yahweh. It wasn't just the oral traditions that Christians have been taught is the reason Jesus got on to them. It was the very law of Yahweh.... and Jesus flipped it upside down on it's head. Not ONE Christian on here has yet explained that.

In the days of Jesus upon this earth it was the Sadducee's who were in power. The house of Annas and son in law Caiphus paid Rome for the office of High Priest. They taught from the rabbinic doctrine and not from the Prophetic doctrine of the Creator. That was the entire problem. Judaic doctrine should have been patterned from the prophets who were taught by the Creator. It was not patterned by the prophets but was polluted by rabbinic authority and Roman corruption.

Jesus flipped nothing. Jesus as the celestial Creator "Word" gave the laws to Noah and to Moses and gave the authority of punishments to the cultures who practiced those laws. The laws have never changed and will never change. The laws are still in effect today but the cultures of civil punishment of those laws have changed. That right was given by the Creator to the nations to govern themselves. Now you can govern by grace and you can govern by sever penalties of death. In the United States of America you have different civil laws of punishment for the same crime among the states but that does not negate the law. The law still says that murder is wrong but that law is punishable by each state's statute. Then you have federal law that supersedes civil law. All of that was given by the Creator to govern the culture it represents.

In the days of Moses the people were savages and blood drinkers and that includes the Hebrews. They were for the most part polytheists and very cruel in respect for life of any sort. It was necessary to govern them with that in mind. That was the only thing that they understood. When a person has no fear of dying and believes his god sanctifies savagery, then you must govern accordingly. You can see this today with certain cultures and those cultures who practice this savagery do not respect your love of all people.

What do you do? You must breed savagery out of the people and this takes time as well a strict hard rules and regulations. In other words it takes a different approach to enforce the same laws. In time the world will have to do the same thing as before. The savages will have to either be converted or killed but eventually it will be the exact same thing that Moses faced. Makes no difference whether you are Christian or another doctrine, the laws of the Creator remain the same forever.

Now when Paul preaches that we are no longer under the law is meant that we are no longer under the same punishments as was in the days of Moses. Jesus brought grace to the same law. How does that work? Well. Jesus brought forgiveness in the law. Not that a person should not be punished but that the person should be given grace and time to repent and be saved for eternal life. In that day of Moses that same person would not have been given that chance. The law was the law and the punishment was the same for everyone. You simply gave the savages the only thing they understood. As the Hebrews and the nations became more civilized the punishments were more relaxed. Forgiveness and mercy became an influence through the prophets and Godly monotheists. Jesus taught forgiveness but He also taught that there is a limit to forgiveness and in the distant afterlife there is still a hell and a second death. But that law is still the same law in heaven as it is on earth.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Can you please elaborate on this "doctrine of Jesus"? I mean, I would like to hear it....only using HIS words. Not only that....but can you try to rectify how Jesus treated women as equals, yet Yahweh didn't...nor did Paul. Here's what I think...the Bible has been tampered with, big time.

Let me first give my opinion or understanding. Firstly I do not subscribe to doctrines of preachers of denominations. I subscribe to the teachings of the Apostles and disciples of the scriptures as well as certain other literature. My preference would be the synagogue of the Nazarene James simply because he was appointed by Jesus to be the foundation of His soon to be established church.

The doctrine of Jesus is that of which He taught according to what Matthew has shown. Starting in the red letter edition of the KJV -- Matthew 5:1-22, Matthew 6:1-34 and Matthew 7:1- 27 --

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

In your post you wrote a good portion of His doctrine but also realize that this is Jesus' perfect will and not His permissive will. The perfect will of His doctrine would be that you become as perfect as He is but no one who has ever lived could do His perfect will. Therefore Jesus embraced grace or forgiveness to those who should repent.

Equality is very misunderstood by many people. Equality in salvation is one thing and equality between femininity and masculinity is another matter not even related. Equality in authority was given to Adam or the male species and has never been revoked or altered but has nothing in common with intelligence or salvation. All of the children of Jesus are equal in spirit for by one spirit are both male and female born. The same as with a slave. Both slave and slave owner are equal in the eyes of the Creator.

But in the terrestrial life there must be order just as there is in the celestial life. The celestial host has equality in salvation but still has order of authority. This order of male and female and animate and inanimate is reasoned as necessary for peace and tranquility. As the terrestrial life ends there is still a celestial order of authority and always will be.

The dominate male has misused his strength in the past to not only abuse women but also the weaker male. It depends upon the culture Even today we see some cultures that abuse the female and also the weaker male. But Jesus taught by example what we should be doing by both male and female. Now it is not simply a matter of the male abusing the female as you can see in most advanced cultures. It is also a matter of the female overstepping her authority. She was not to usurp authority in life but in all honesty and love obey the rules of authority. That premise has gone by the wayside in most western cultures by both male and female.

I belong to no denomination but have visited many denominational services. Most all that I have visited have difficulty in getting the male to participate in church affairs. The male is slothful and lazy and for this reason most of the teaching and church affairs are done by the female. In this respect the female usurps authority only because the male has relinquished his authority.

But then there is another avenue in this affair. Some groups have the female problem as demanding authority or equality in authority. Their civil laws have overridden the church laws and have caused rebellion in the church. This is about the normal operation today. In other words the civil laws have dictated what the Creator did not intend for the church to become.

As Jesus taught, the female of His circle understood and obeyed her authority. She accepted righteous authority and was loved for being so inclined. She also had the right to be respected and loved as the Creator intended. Authority gives no male the lawful right to either verbally or physically abuse the female nor even the weaker male. With all of that said, the male is actually at fault for almost all that is wrong. They were given the authority of both civil and religious affairs by the Creator and have failed miserably. Look at most countries today and see the mess in this world. Lazy and ungodly men have allowed all of what you see.

I'll try once again. Leviticus is a book describing what its writers, the Levitical priesthood, considered sound and unsound liturgy. What can and cannot be performed on Temple premises. The pagan usage of temple prostitutes is well documented in OT for instance, and liturgy deemed pagan by the writers of Leviticus, is described detailed enough to understand that the writers of Leviticus saw even temple prostitutes guilty when they served for instance as priestesses and performers of sexual liturgy, including but not limited to, animal-sex for instance.

Certain 'hospitality laws' are also documented in Torah and elsewhere, describing how homosexual intercourse in certain places and under certain systems of justice, was not considered adultery among said pagans, and certain places, like Sodom and Gomorrah, Adma and Zeboyim, such 'hospitality laws' allowed any of these towns' inhabitants of certain caste could 'have their will' with anyone visiting their towns, given the sex involved was 'same-sex affairs' not considered by said pagans, as being 'affairs' or adultery.

Torah doesnot forbid homosexuals or even homosexual intercourse, it forbids certain kinds of liturgy involving sex of said kinds and even weirder, and for us difficult to understand. When the Mosaic Hebrews would invade new towns, they would kill off temple priests and priestesses (see in the Writings how the 'hero' Elijah executed hundreds of Baal priests and Baal prophets for instance, using the Mosaic Torah as law, OT also contains a few descriptions of a pre-Troyan "Troyan horses").

a reply to: craig732

So... I don't really want to read all of these pages so I'm just going to give you my take on your question.

In verse 17 Jesus says that He did not come to abolish the OT laws. He also said that He came to "accomplish their purpose." Other translations say that He came to fulfill the laws. In verse 18 Jesus says that not one bit of the law will disappear until their purpose is achieved, or until they are fulfilled.

Christians that do not follow Mosaic law believe that when Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, that he meant the old covenant was fulfilled and done with. So basically Jesus did what He came here to do; He fulfilled the law. He said that the law would not disappear until it was fulfilled, but then He fulfilled it.

originally posted by: jon1
a reply to: enterthestage

Like i say.. unless you have the faith and are filled with the holy spirit, you do not know what you are talking about..
You can go all day talking about the bible but Jesus is not there to guide you...enough said..

So, with the guidance of Jesus and the holy spirit, can you please answer my original question?

originally posted by: Belcastro
it is said whoever sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed.
Thats one reason not to kill them,

A kind of cosmic karma almost.

Then why did god command people to kill other people throughout the bible?

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: craig732
Why not just say, "I love my neighbor, and I believe in a creator" instead of associating one's self with a book full of confusion and hatred toward certain groups?

Because their reason for believing in a Creator began with the contents of that book.
It is one of the ways that he communicates with us.
So if one trusts in that God at all, it is vital to understand what else he is saying.

So what about all the people who have never read that book and also believe in a creator?

a reply to: TheManFromTaured

So what about "until heaven and earth disappear". Heaven may have disappeared, but earth appears to still be here.

a reply to: craig732

Well, it doesn't stop them from hating groups of people.

Many (not all) Christians like to cherry pick and mis-interpret the bible to justify thier sins.

originally posted by: craig732
"Because their reason for believing in a Creator began with the contents of that book."
So what about all the people who have never read that book and also believe in a creator?

Another poster made a similar quibble, so I will save my energies by copying what I said to him;

My careful wording was "THEIR reason for believing". I did not say it was the only possible way to come to that belief. My point was that this is where Christians, at least, derived their belief in the Creator.

I also pointed out that your original question was why Christians do what they do.
So Christians are the people we are talking about. "Other people" are not relevant to the question in hand.

a reply to: craig732

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

He's saying that even in the event of everything we know disappearing the law will still not disappear - until everything is accomplished. And we know that said accomplishment was the goal of Jesus life, death, and resurrection.

He's simply making a comparison. He's letting the people of the time know that His sacrifice is the ONLY way to get out from under the yoke of the law and judgment. Not even destroying the world would have the same effect as Jesus giving up His own life for the people.

He's showing us the significance of His sacrifice.

a reply to: veracity

Yes they do

a reply to: DISRAELI

Okay, so let's just look at christians then.

Not all christian's belief in a creator began with that book. There are many christians who converted from other religions.

So please answer my question in regards to those particular christians if it makes it easier for you.

a reply to: craig732
Not many religions actually have a Creator in the Christian sense.
There are the Jews, who get their knowledge of God from the same Bible, and the followers of Mohammed, who probably picked up his knowledge from the local Jews and Christians.
In the case of Muslims who become Christians, the Bible is at least the source of their improved understanding of God, and they rightly go there for more information.
Becoming a Christian is about meeting a new person. If you want to find out more about him and what he wants, you listen to what he says and to what people say about him.