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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: chr0naut
Please research Serapis.
Christ was a priestly title for an ordinary human person. Check your Septuagint. It was a Greek word/concept that already existed in their language, their philosophy and their theosophy, that was usurped in messianic translation.
originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
Now if we take all these with the Gospels and Paul's writings who spoke with the apostles we can assume we know a good bit.
No. Like schuyler said, just because some ancient 'historians' wrote about it doesn't make it "true."
Personally, I think an extraordinary man did live in the area at the time. The deity and virgin birth and magic is all nonsense.
Ever heard of fan fiction? That's all Paul and the Gospels amount to. The Gospels don't even tell the same story as one another. We don't "know" anything that isn't second-hand or ninety-seventh-hand information.
He was a guru. He didn't die on the cross - he went to India (where he'd been while he was "missing"). They welcomed him back, and there he is buried. Please look into this, it fills in all the holes and will help you realize how misled you have been, and how you are misleading others because of it.
When translating to Greek, one can see how one would have to take the concepts of 'annionting or rubbing with oil or salve' (khriein) which pre-existed in the language and create a new word "Khristos" to mean 'the annointed one', in Greek.
If you know of any text which uses the word 'christ' outside of the Jewish translations please post its details.
Now, the Greek language affords strange etymologies. Christian theology has chosen and decreed that the name Christos should be taken as derived from [chrio, chriso], "anointed with scented unguents or oil." But this word has several significances. It is used by Homer, certainly, as applied to the rubbing with oil of the body after bathing, as other ancient writers do. Yet the word Christes means rather a white-washer, while the word Chrestes means priest and prophet
All this is evidence that the terms Christ and Christians, spelt originally Chrest and Chrestians [chrestianoi] were directly borrowed from the Temple terminology of the Pagans, and meant the same thing. The God of the Jews was now substituted for the Oracle and the other gods; the generic designation "Chrestos" became a noun applied to one special personage; and new terms such as Chrestianoi and Chrestodoulos "a follower or servant of Chrestos" — were coined out of the old material. This is shown by Philo Judaeus, a monotheist, assuredly, using already the same term for monotheistic purposes. For he speaks of theochrestos "God-declared," or one who is declared by god, and of logia theochresta "sayings delivered by God" — which proves that he wrote at a time (between the first century B. C., and the first A. D.) when neither Christians nor Chrestians were yet known under these names, but still called themselves the Nazarenes. The notable difference between the two words [chrao] — "consulting or obtaining response from a god or oracle" (chreo being the Ionic earlier form of it), and chrio "to rub, to anoint" (from which the name Christos), has not prevented the ecclesiastical adoption and coin age from Philo's expression [Theochrestos] of that other term [Theochristos] "anointed by God." Thus the quiet substitution of the letter, for dogmatic purposes, was achieved in the easiest way, as we now see.
Thus in Aeschylus (Cho. 901) we read of pythochresta the "oracles delivered by a Pythian God" (Greek-English Lexicon) through a pythoness; and Pythochrestos is the nominative singular of an adjective derived from chrao (Eurip. Ion, 1218). The later meanings coined freely from this primitive application, are numerous and varied. Pagan classics expressed more than one idea by the verb [chraomai] "consulting an oracle"; for it also means "fated," doomed by an oracle, in the sense of a sacrificial victim to its decree, or — "to the WORD"; as chresterion is not only "the seat of an oracle" but also "an offering to, or for, the oracle.'' Chrestes is one who expounds or explains oracles, "a prophet, a soothsayer;" and chresterios is one who belongs to, or is in the service of, an oracle, a god, or a "Master"
Who were the chrestianos? Chrestus was a familiar personal name throughout the Roman Empire. It was not, however, Israelite in origin. Instead it was the name of the Egyptian Serapis (Ancient Greek: Σάραπιςa, Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC on the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm, and whose main temple was in Alexandria, Egypt [read: Pausanias, Ἑλλάδος περιήγησις or Description of Greece, 1.18.4, second century CE].
The idea of the logos in Greek thought harks back at least to the 6th-century-bc philosopher Heracleitus, who discerned in the cosmic process a logos analogous to the reasoning power in man. Later, the Stoics, philosophers who followed the teachings of the thinker Zeno of Citium (4th–3rd century bc), defined the logos as an active rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo of Alexandria, a 1st-century-ad Jewish philosopher, taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can apprehend and comprehend God. According to Philo and the Middle Platonists, philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of the 4th-century-bc Greek master philosopher Plato, the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind.
In the first chapter of The Gospel According to John, Jesus Christ is identified as “the Word” (Greek logos) incarnated, or made flesh. This identification of Jesus with the logos is based on Old Testament concepts of revelation, such as occurs in the frequently used phrase “the Word of the Lord”—which connoted ideas of God’s activity and power—and the Jewish view that Wisdom is the divine agent that draws man to God and is identified with the word of God. The author of The Gospel According to John used this philosophical expression, which easily would be recognizable to readers in the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world, to emphasize the redemptive character of the person of Christ, whom the author describes as “the way, and the truth, and the life.”
Classification of Logos
Logos examples may be classified according to the following categories.
Inductive reasoning –
Inductive reasoning involves a specific representative fact or case which is drawn towards a conclusion or generalization. However, inductive reasoning requires reliable and powerful evidence that is presented to support the point.
Deductive reasoning –
Deductive reasoning involves generalization at the initial stage and then moves on towards the specific case. The starting generalization must be based on reliable evidence to support it at the end.
In some cases, both of these methods are used to convince the audience.
Eleven of the 12 Disciples of Jesus were put to death at different times and locations becase they would not recant their faith. Seems a bit extreme to do for fan fiction.
After Jesus return from Egypt as a child, there is no evidence that He travelled further than 124 miles from around Jerusalem.
The suggestion that He travelled more than 4,000 miles and that outside of the Roman Empire across lands held by hostile kingdoms, or by sea (there were only two trade routes in the first century) does not sound reasonable.
The Best of the Sons of Men
Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa. Their 'buddha'.
A personification of the Nation of Israel? How do you get that from :
Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.
The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.
Christian missionaries will claim that the Jewish Biblical commentator Rashi made up the association of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 with the People of Israel personified. This is simply untrue, which can be proven from the writings of Christians themselves well before Rashi was born. In 'Contra Celsum,' written in 248 C.E. (some 800 years before Rashi), the Christian Church Father Origen records that Jews contemporary with him interpreted this passage as referring to the entire nation of Israel. He wrote:
'I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned I used these prophecies [Isaiah 52:13-53:8]. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes.' (Origen, Contra Celsum, trans. Henry Chadwick, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Book 1.55, 1965, p. 50) This can also be found on the internet at Early Christian Writings. Scroll down to Chapter LV.
This shows that Jews subscribed to the belief that the people of Israel were the suffering servant spoken of throughout the entire passage, and this pre-dates Rashi by many centuries.
Philo of Alexandria was instrumental in correlating the Old Testament's Angel of the Lord with Plato's LOGOS. If you have evidence of pre-Philo documents assigning the concept of Plato's LOGOS to the Angel of the Lord I would love to see it.
Well, we're going to just half to agree to disagree on that. But, the fact is, Jesus didn't fulfilled messianic prophecy, not Isaiah's, not Daniels.