RFB vs. M1A. Thoughts?

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

OK so here's the scoop on 5.45x39.

1. It's actually designed for use in 16 inch barrels whereas common and inexpensive 5.56 is designed for 20 inch barrels. The projectiles themselves are longer and retain velocity / buck wind better.

2. they're also slightly lighter and have less recoil than 5.56

3. My observations and multiple objective tests prove it's more effective than standard 5.56 rounds especially from barrels less than 20 inches.

4. Yes you can get AR's chambered in 5.45 and they work very well as long as you remember to clean the gun after using steel case if you intend to use brass case next. It's only a factor going that direction though, you can fire off a couple hundred rounds of brass case then immediately fire another 200 rounds of steel case with no issues. Basically the issue is that steel isn't as good of an obturator (seal) as brass is and allows a thin layer of microfouling to coat the chamber and possibly feed ramp which brass case rounds with their softer metal will hang up on this grit when the gun tries to go into battery causing a number of basic stoppages. It doesn't threaten the safety of the gun or quickly wear out parts it's just a natural consequence of basic material properties.

5. 5.45 is cheap and plenty accurate

Recommendations: Honestly when it comes to this I recommend that you pick up something that uses actual ak74 magazines which magpul now produce and sell for under $20 a magazine. Further than this I couldn't really specify without knowing your budget and needs. Honestly though you wouldn't go wrong with an AR variant either.

Personally I'm looking at building a new galil, a vz58, and an homage to this new Iranian rifle all in 5.45. I like the round obviously.

Its threads like this that make me wish I lived in the US

Though to be brutally honest, A Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine would be all the rifle I would ever want. I just love them things.

www.thefirearmblog.com...

a reply to: SprocketUK

Have you fired one?

The recoil is insanely brutal.

Now on the other hand a decent #4 in 303 or the couple of ishapore guns I've had in 308 were both nice, but I shot a number 5 just enough to know that I don't want to do it ever again.

Keep in mind I've also fired the mosin pistols too and enjoyed it even. But that jungle carbine is just plain uncalled for cruelty lol

I guess I should've titled the thread RFB vs. M1A vs. AR-10, as the AR-10 is proving to be a stronger contender than I had originally thought. Of course, I didn't know when I made the thread that the AR-10 had a left-handed model.

I think the RFB still really offers an edge over the other two with it's ambidextrous bullpup design. The RFB Hunter measures in at just over 30 inches (30.5 inches I think) with a 24 inch barrel. The AR-10 or M1A measure in at at least 34 inches with a 16 inch barrel. That extra barrel length on the RFB makes it highly likely to be more accurate. Fitting an M1A or AR-10 with a barrel of the same length will leave you with a rifle that is much longer than the RFB. 40 inches or more.

It may not seem like much of a difference, but those who have fought in or trained for close quarters combat know that this can make a huge difference in terms of how easy or difficult the rifle will be to wield in those close quarters. A close quarters weapon that is not your main battle rifle is a thought, but that's another gun you're going to have to lug around if you want to have it with you when you need it. Your sidearm isn't going to allow for as well aimed of a shot as your rifle would. The RFB would ride better slung than the other two as well, because it's shorter.

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: SprocketUK

Have you fired one?

The recoil is insanely brutal.

Now on the other hand a decent #4 in 303 or the couple of ishapore guns I've had in 308 were both nice, but I shot a number 5 just enough to know that I don't want to do it ever again.

Keep in mind I've also fired the mosin pistols too and enjoyed it even. But that jungle carbine is just plain uncalled for cruelty lol

I never fired the carbine, just the standard SMLE back when I was with cadets. I remember that had quite a kick, though prior to that one of my uncles had taught me how to properly hold a shotgun with a big charge so as not to get hurt. I didn't find it too bad. Is the carbine worse than the long 'un then? Damn, it's such a lovely looking weapon I would probably put up with a bit of discomfort.

a reply to: SprocketUK

I wouldn't call it devastating but it's definitely uncomfortable to crack off more than 5-20 rounds in a single session. Nothing near as bad as some of the beastly Holland and Holland belted magnum dangerous game guns I've fired in my lifetime.

Cabbie,

I just wanted to say I wasn't trying to dissuade you from an RFB, they're good guns for what they are. Unfortunately what they are NOT is anything resembling a combat rifle. There's lots of reasons for this unfortunately too many for a dedicated user to fix.

Good news is you can call ken at k&m arms and maybe order the .308 M17S at no extra cost in a lefty specific version.

If the desert tech MDR ever comes out that would be another option. Also there's a rumor picking up speed about the RFB going away in favor of a .308 RDB. personally I really want a 5.56 RDB and would like a matched set in 5.56 & .308 even more.

On the note of RDB it's also not a pure combat rifle, but would serve the role much better than an RFB.

I really like bullpups too fwiw, and really wish the bullpup manufacturers would up their collective game and take a design all the way. As it is now the most frustrating part about bullpups is you find yourself saying I like X bullpup but it would be perfect if they added this feature from y bullpup and built it more like bullpup Z.

That being said in 308 caliber the M17 is by far the single best bullpup straight out of the box right down to a trigger setup that's better than all but the VERY BEST trigger groups out there on any factory gun conventional or bullpup.

a reply to: roguetechie

Interesting criticism roguetechie, thanks for your input. I'd like to hear more. What are the biggest shortcomings that make the RFB unsuitable for combat, in your opinion?

General reply to the thread:

Okay I need to correct myself. I found Kel-Tec's page on the RFB Hunter model. Looks like it's listed as the RFB-24. The overall length with a 24" barrel without muzzle brake attached is 35.9". This still offers a significant advantage in terms of overall length with a longer barrel. AR-10 or M1A would be 34" long with stock fully collapsed and a 16" barrel. I could've sworn there was a model that is CA compliant that is shorter, but I could be wrong about that. Here is a photo and a link:

www.keltecweapons.com...

a reply to: roguetechie

The MDR...looks nice. Very similar design to the RFB, and looks to be designed as a combat rifle. Convertible too? I like it! How long has it been "coming soon"?

deserttech.com...

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

So as far as not being anything close to a combat rifle.

1. It's held together with a bunch of screws etc. You absolutely wouldn't want to strip it down in anything less than an indoor controlled environment.

2. The near infinite gas settings mean you've got a lot of settings that aren't going to work sometimes even between different lots of the same ammunition.

3. It's just not sturdy enough in some ways, and the plastic feels kinda cheap.

Onto the MDR it's been coming soon for 2-3+ years by now.

AFAIK there is or will be a Cali legal RDB featureless gun but I don't know much about it because I don't and won't live in ban states.

Unfortunately the exact feature set you want just isn't available in mass produced off the shelf guns. With a little work and piecing together though you can get something that will suit you.

My recommendation for you is still honestly the dpms G2. It's fairly light and compact for a .308 rifle, and DEFINITELY lower cost. As a lefty I used to obsess over left handed models too, but really the g2 will do what you want and cost enough less for you to pick up a $600-$800 optic and a good return to zero mount for the optic for a little less than many of the other options which probably won't even come with a set of backup iron sights.

The Olympic arms one might be worth looking into too since with that you could get a $400 optic a decent mount and a 5.56 upper for the price of a g2 and expensive optic.

But I recommended the g2 over it on the basis that I've fired them and like them.

Local gun shop guy texted me the other day, I had mentioned some interest in a RFB a month or so back when I was ordering a Tavor X95, he said one of his distributors allocated a few RFB's to him if he wanted them. Figured I'd be interested(I'm a "hard" sell). Wasn't really committed until he told me he could do it for a lot less than anything I"ve seen online(hundreds less).

I'll certainly give it a try for that. I'll have to pack up a bunch of 308 and bring the DPMS out with it.

Just thought I'd mention it, as my original comment was of the "good luck finding one" nature, I found it ironic. They are somewhat scarce around here.

a reply to: MisterSpock

The big thing to understand with kel tec is that it's a side business ran by the owner George Kellgren and because of this he only expands production as much as is possible with cash taken out of it's profits. He also tends not to dump cash into potentially unsustainable expansion.

That's what's remarkable about kel tec is it's one of the largest firearm manufacturers in the US, and it's just a freakin hobby for the guy who runs it!

I'm saving my pennies for an RDB because I think it's unimaginably awesome, but it doesn't fit the need you have for a 308 rifle you can buy today or any other day. Guns are first and foremost commodity items.

a reply to: roguetechie

I see your point on the RFB's construction. If you have to pull all those screws to field strip it, you're not going to get it together or apart very quickly, and in adverse conditions you'd stand a good chance of losing some of your hardware.

I'm also starting to think that a bullpup rifle might be somewhat wasted on the .308. I want a rifle constructed for taking that ranged shot and doing it well. I guess a bullpup with an extended barrel like the RFB hunter would still allow you to rig a bipod. A short barreled one might make a bipod problematic though I guess. Anyhow, maybe keeping the long gun long is the way to go, and have a separate close quarters weapon.

With that in mind, can the M1A compete with the accuracy of the AR-10 or G2? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the M1A is a sturdier gun that should last much longer with less maintenance or repairs than the AR-10, is it not? It will also function when dirtier than the AR-10, won't it? I've mostly heard the AR-10 is the more accurate gun, but what do you think? Are they comparable or will the AR-10/G2 almost always out shoot the M1A?

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

The M1a is less accurate, far less durable, far more prone to stoppages especially by dirt ingress, and far more expensive to buy parts for. Oh, and since you're interested in long range you should know that mounting optics and getting them to stay zeroed on an M1A is expensive, tricky, time consuming, and plain something you can't avoid.

The parts will break and wear out more and more often while being much more expensive to replace.

Honestly the M1A is a commercial gun built and based on one of the most abject failures in the history of American service rifles.

The DPMS G2 uses mostly AR15 components making your options almost ENDLESS and the costs reasonable. It also has a very good bolt and bolt carrier design that seems to hold up really well.

Honestly it's the platform I recommend whole heartedly in your case.

Who knows here in a couple months you might get to be an alpha tester on a very interesting bipod project I'm working on.

Final recommendation: Please do yourself a favor and go to some local shops to hold and generally get a feel for G2's in several barrel lengths and barrel profiles. Also give some other AR10's a feel. And just to be sure call around until you find a shop that has a couple left handed savage axis bolt actions in 308. They're very very affordable (under $400) and that would allow you to buy a very nice carbine or rifle for defense purposes with the money you'd save.

a reply to: roguetechie

Thanks for the good input. I've got a nag, so I've got budget high power covered. As to the AR-10 platforms, is Colt the only one that will accept AR-15 uppers, or have other manufacturers produced models that are likewise convertible?

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Olympic arms makes one too. TBH I'd buy the Olympic arms one over the colt because of it taking a single stack 308 magazine and custom upper. I could easily see someone making the opposite choice too.

Honestly at some point I'll probably just build my own G2 conversion unit.

So for our defense setup we also went with the 308.

Ruger Scout Rifle with the stainless 18" barrel for longer ranged stuff with Trijicon Accupoint 2.5-10x56 MIL-Dot Crosshair w/ Green Dot
SIG 716 as more of an over watch type battle rifle that has a Trijicon MRO but when I pick up a 5.56 Ill replace with a ACOG

a reply to: FredT

Fairly solid choices all around, although I really am not a big fan of the M1A I can see why some people choose it.

ACOG optics are very solid and a really good choice. Though if they didn't want so much for it the elcan specter DR or TR would be super tempting too. Or better yet the Russian swiss Eagle eyes that have a simultaneously viewable 1x/3.5x single view. Basically there's a small circle showing the 3.5x view inside the larger 1x view both of which can be independently zeroed. Another scandalously expensive and less optimal version of the eagle eye system under the d-evo line. Or the belomo COD-2 which is a high end dual setup like d-evo or eagle eye but military grade.

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

On the note of the nagant... They're OK for what they are, but at prices right now there's still one or two places you could pick up a surplus k31 swiss straight pull bolt action for not much more you can privately sell a nagant for. Even better news is there's still places to get ammo for them.

Basically you'll pay 2-4x as much per bullet than a nagant but... You'd be upgrading to a base rifle and ammunition that you won't TOUCH anywhere else for less than a $2000 rifle that only gives it's best results firing $3-$7 bullets.

a reply to: roguetechie

Well sure, but now we're on to a non standard cartridge again. Main battle rifle needs to be a fairly standard cartridge, otherwise it'll get scarce in a bad situation pretty quickly. Until I can reload and make my own powder, that's not a sustainable solution in my opinion. An M1 Garand through the Civilian Marksmanship Program would be a better budget upgrade I think.
thecmp.org...

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Yeah if Garands and Johnson's weren't so damn expensive I'd probably have at least one of each.

My rationale with the swiss rifles is that they're in case of emergency break glass guns. I'm slowly working up light chassis systems for them, and if I ever break them out in a bad situation I'll be jamming 50 rounds in a pouch slinging a light sub carbine.

Basically they're one of those oh Jesus I need to buy some time for my people to get out of the way of whatever's coming guns. Go out and do your level damn best to put someone down with every single shot and move before you take counterfire, find a new spot wash rinse repeat until your people get clear, you get flanked and killed, or they decide to go around the crazy Ahole that keeps killing them! There's a better than even chance in a scenario like this that myself and the rifle or just the rifle won't make it back in that situation.

So I picked it based on the fact that it's basically a $300 sniper rifle in case of emergency. Better to ditch $300 than $3000+