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How close are you in believing ?

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posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 08:51 AM
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originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?




posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?


...said the creationist.



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?


...said the creationist.

As a reply to an atheist argument where a puddle thinks
Can I see some empirical evidence or do you evolutionist just accept a puddle can think.
Is it logical that awareness came before life, rocks water had thought before abiogenesis or whatever you believe in this year
Is puddles thinking now an accepted theory, any papers, any evidence

It's to easy, it's good for a laugh
It's a religion of faith



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 12:28 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

The point of the puddle analogy is, whatever the conditions are, in any universe, whatever evolved just adapted to existing conditions, it would think that it was fine tuned with that result in mind.

Life has evolved to survive the Universe. You are a puddle who is foolishly insisting that the tiny pothole it rests in must have been designed specifically for it, because it fits so well.




posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 12:52 PM
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originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.

I'm not sure how that advances the discussion about the unnaturalness of the fine-tuning of the Higgs Boson mass, because that makes possible the whole kit and caboodle, the hole, the water, the planet and the entire cosmos. If you're referring to the whole thing as well as the observer, then that's accurate, but it's not an assumption or projection or a selection bias since it's founded in empirical scientific proof.

Also, in this case life isn't just an accident that happened to survive the maelstrom of creation, but is a byproduct of the whole process, or in other words, the universe is friendly to the life we experience and know.

Also, this argument isn't a young earth creationist argument by any means.


edit on 20-8-2016 by AnkhMorpork because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 02:02 PM
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a reply to: AnkhMorpork






Also, in this case life isn't just an accident that happened to survive the maelstrom of creation, but is a byproduct of the whole process, or in other words, the universe is friendly to the life we experience and know.


The byproduct of the whole process, if you're looking for matter, would be star formation and galaxy's. In other words, 99.99+ of universe is incredibly hostile and deadly to life as we are aware of it.



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: flyingfish

You seem to see life as some sort of accident or artifact or great fluke, and fail to recognize that in terms of evolution and complexity, the whole thing
forms an arrow that has indeed fostered life as we know it, including stellar and galactic formation. The whole universe is in fact friendly to this life we know, or we wouldn't be here.

I'm inviting you to look at it holistically, with the earth and life on earth as a culmination of the entire process arising from initial conditions which through a long chain of causes contained this present reality imbedded right into it from the get go, not unlike a seed of life which is framed by well, the whole thing and in particular our own earth-moon-sun and solar system configuration, which by extension includes the formation of our entire galaxy which must also include the entire cosmos by extension.


Thus, instead of seeing the whole as some sort of mindless, aimless, random process, we behold a miracle of creation unto the very Godhead, which is on display, with our own observation inextricably interwoven into it. It's absolutely astonishing and awe inspiring that it's even here when particles and antiparticles should have annihilated each other right at the beginning, if not for the fine-tuning the outcome of which was anticipated.



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 02:35 PM
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originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
a reply to: flyingfish

You seem to see life as some sort of accident or artifact or great fluke, and fail to recognize that in terms of evolution and complexity, the whole thing
forms an arrow that has indeed fostered life as we know it, including stellar and galactic formation. The whole universe is in fact friendly to this life we know, or we wouldn't be here.

I'm inviting you to look at it holistically, with the earth and life on earth as a culmination of the entire process arising from initial conditions which through a long chain of causes contained this present reality imbedded right into it from the get go, not unlike a seed of life which is framed by well, the whole thing and in particular our own earth-moon-sun and solar system configuration, which by extension includes the formation of our entire galaxy which must also include the entire cosmos by extension.


Thus, instead of seeing the whole as some sort of mindless, aimless, random process, we behold a miracle of creation unto the very Godhead, which is on display, with our own observation inextricably interwoven into it. It's absolutely astonishing and awe inspiring that it's even here when particles and antiparticles should have annihilated each other right at the beginning, if not for the fine-tuning the outcome of which was anticipated.


99% of every life-form that has ever existed on Earth is now extinct. And in the time it took to compose this sentence 20 more species went extinct. Earth is only slightly more friendly than the rest of this very unfriendly universe.
edit on 20-8-2016 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 05:58 PM
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originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: Raggedyman

The point of the puddle analogy is, whatever the conditions are, in any universe, whatever evolved just adapted to existing conditions, it would think that it was fine tuned with that result in mind.

Life has evolved to survive the Universe. You are a puddle who is foolishly insisting that the tiny pothole it rests in must have been designed specifically for it, because it fits so well.



Yeah, I think it's foolish that you think you can demand I think like you do

This world is certainly more complex than a hole and we are certainly more complex than a puddle but whatever floats your boat

Please stop your preaching, you are like a Mormon missionary knocking on doors



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 07:03 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: Raggedyman

The point of the puddle analogy is, whatever the conditions are, in any universe, whatever evolved just adapted to existing conditions, it would think that it was fine tuned with that result in mind.

Life has evolved to survive the Universe. You are a puddle who is foolishly insisting that the tiny pothole it rests in must have been designed specifically for it, because it fits so well.



Yeah, I think it's foolish that you think you can demand I think like you do

This world is certainly more complex than a hole and we are certainly more complex than a puddle but whatever floats your boat

Please stop your preaching, you are like a Mormon missionary knocking on doors


I'm sure the dinosaurs were pretty confident of their place in the universe before they became fossil fuel.



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 08:28 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

What, like many atheists before judgement



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

What, like many atheists before judgement


I wouldn't know, I've never been to a judgement day. At least not that kind. But extinction level events have been happening for millions of years.



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

Just think about it though, as something worthy of consideration, that to the contrary the universe IS friendly to us given the fact that we are here and were not wiped out as were the dinosaurs (touch wood).

If the fine-tuning/design hypothesis is right, then it would have to include our own earth-moon-sun configuration, and well the whole cosmos by extension, at the long end of the cosmic evolutionary arrow pointing in favor of life as we know it, which I would like to hereby place in evidence as fact number one. It happened, and now that it happened it could not have happened in any other way, whether with intent and by anticipation or as some sort of random flux or by accident or coincidence, who knows, since if it were any other way that the way it is, we wouldn't be here to observe it in the first place ("so stop asking about it since it's a meaningless line of inquiry"). We are here. It is.

What we're talking about here are two competing hypothesis, one in favor of design, with the Higg's Boson mass in evidence, and the other, anything but an intentional, super-intelligent design, because of what that might imply..

You could have to say based on your own assumptions, that "it's nothing special".

What I'm suggesting is that by virtue of the fact that we are here and integral to it, and able to observe it, the occurrence of life in all it's glory, is itself meaningful and significant, where in the qualia of our own personal experience, we cannot separate ourselves from it (what's happening).

The universe is not only friendly, we are also it looking at itself looking back at us according to the adage of modern quantum physics that "to be is to be perceived".

The universe is not only friendly, it's very personal (not impersonal).

There is one interpenetrating cosmological unity of which we are an integral component, particularly as sentient, self-aware observers.

According to the model you're operating according to, the human being must be relegated to a mere thing, and a separate thing at that, but I must say friend, that that's not our true condition and I suspect that the ancients knew something of this intimate, participatory, co-creative "element" as part of the larger framework (framing us within the context of the galaxy, back then). Neither is it (separation) our true state as conscious choosers, as quantum physics reveals.

I don't think reason will allow us to put our head in the sand, as referenced in the OP.

Bear in mind too that when trying to deal with the Higgs Boson mass (unnaturalness of excessive fine-tuning), scientists are prepared to invoke the multi-universe theory within the context of the strong anthropic principal, which spells the end of science if no more particles are forthcoming. String theory is said to describe every other universe but our own.

So it's either like being on a little island in an ocean of absurdity, or, still in the domain of science yet not unwilling to accept super-intelligent design as the basis for further inquiry which holds within it's rational grasp, the very real possibility that we may be on the verge of re-discovering our true place in the grand scheme of things, as we may once have during a past Golden Age.

That's something.

Or you can maintain that it's nothing special and we are just things, in some sort of brutal and impersonal unfriendly machine that cares not a whit for the configuration of the Earth-Moon-Sun system that gave rise to the life we know and, with newfound wonderment and awe..?, can really appreciate in a whole new way.

What does your heart tell you, about the true nature of our predicament?

And what if reason itself slices in favor of an anticipatory design (that even included the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs ie: fine point control of space and time from initial conditions or by anticipation), and away from some sort of infinite universes (of every possible Higgs Boson mass), strong anthropic principal, end of discussion ie: the question is meaningless? (mere "randomness" is now out of the question based on the Higgs Boson empirical evidence).

Could science eventually embrace the idea of God and become a sort of sacred science?

Would that science in the context of modern technological and scientific advance perhaps some day take us to the stars?

I don't really see how the reasoning you subscribe to (it's biased away from intelligent design) helps us to embrace new possibilities and new scientific paradigms.

And by intelligent design, I am NOT embracing young earth creationism according to a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Best regards,

Ankh


edit on 21-8-2016 by AnkhMorpork because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 01:19 AM
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With all due respect, Slayer, yes, I think maths can certainly lie.
It is a language, with assigned representative parameters, and non sensical rules to guide those parameters and individual representatives (numbers), and therefore, within maths, you can come up with a specific equation that follows the general rules of math, and equals a positive example, but represents nothing, actually, but maths......

Why do I believe whatever I do?

That's a good question. Why do I question evolution, for instance? I just discussed this last night sitting with my daughter on her 27th birthday, cautioning her to be careful about believing everything she read, on the internet, in newspapers, or books, etc., and hinging her belief on any single one theory.....

The answer that I have, the only one I have, is unlike most people, whom get older and more set in their ways, instead my life has followed the particular trajectory that the more I've learned from experiencing life, the less sure I am about anything "factual" and what qualifies it as such....

Now, that doesn't exactly apply to belief. As belief is really a whole different conundrum....
But that kind of answers the questions, I think, that you posed in your OP. We all have a different position, and what's truly remarkable, is our position and POV evolves and changes with respect to our particular circumstances, something which makes the language of math very difficult to account for in an equation or representative numerical situational ethnology to explain, negate or predict, such.....

Regards,
tetra50



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 01:34 AM
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i started beliving when i woke up on the ceiling looking at my own body and after i assumed i was dead i happily floated away. its so vivid in my mind to this very day. i had similar experiences before that but it never really sunk in until then.



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 04:12 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?


...said the creationist.

As a reply to an atheist argument where a puddle thinks
Can I see some empirical evidence or do you evolutionist just accept a puddle can think.
Is it logical that awareness came before life, rocks water had thought before abiogenesis or whatever you believe in this year
Is puddles thinking now an accepted theory, any papers, any evidence

It's to easy, it's good for a laugh
It's a religion of faith


Oh my goodness, I know you get fixated on literal interpretations but are you really not familiar with the concept of an analogy??



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 04:48 AM
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originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?


...said the creationist.

As a reply to an atheist argument where a puddle thinks
Can I see some empirical evidence or do you evolutionist just accept a puddle can think.
Is it logical that awareness came before life, rocks water had thought before abiogenesis or whatever you believe in this year
Is puddles thinking now an accepted theory, any papers, any evidence

It's to easy, it's good for a laugh
It's a religion of faith


Oh my goodness, I know you get fixated on literal interpretations but are you really not familiar with the concept of an analogy??


Oh my goodness, I know some people can get fixated on literal interpretations are you really not familiar with the concept of humor



posted on Aug, 21 2016 @ 11:33 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.


Said the puddle, hmm, why does that sound like a strawman argument
A puddle with a mind, that can't be right?


...said the creationist.

As a reply to an atheist argument where a puddle thinks
Can I see some empirical evidence or do you evolutionist just accept a puddle can think.
Is it logical that awareness came before life, rocks water had thought before abiogenesis or whatever you believe in this year
Is puddles thinking now an accepted theory, any papers, any evidence

It's to easy, it's good for a laugh
It's a religion of faith


Oh my goodness, I know you get fixated on literal interpretations but are you really not familiar with the concept of an analogy??


Oh my goodness, I know some people can get fixated on literal interpretations are you really not familiar with the concept of humor


You may be good at being a contrary and consistently wrong all the time, but you're no comedian, nothings funny about blatant- willful- ignorance.



posted on Aug, 22 2016 @ 02:31 AM
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a reply to: flyingfish

or your mean-spiritedness in the way you relate to your fellow man who meant no ill will.



posted on Aug, 22 2016 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
a reply to: flyingfish

or your mean-spiritedness in the way you relate to your fellow man who meant no ill will.



or if the truth hurts, you're doing it wrong.



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