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How close are you in believing ?

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posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
The creation and evolution of life as we know it was/is imbedded right into the first cause, on that I'm sure we both agree, since what is, is and is a byproduct of that entire process.


Do we even know that there was a "first cause"? Do we even know that our type of life is the only type possible? To suggest it was embedded or part of the "blue print" says that it was put there intentionally. If it is just a byproduct of everything else that happened in the universe from big bang to now, that's fine, but it's not embedded in there separately. You could say the materials necessary for life were included in the singularity that became the big bang, but that's a completely different statement, because that much we already know since we are alive and here. To suggest that it was done intentionally or that life was created requires evidence beyond simple philosophy.


The only question then that arises then for the believer, and the skeptic/atheist, would then be whether this was the result of a random occurrence, a "coincidence", "fluke occurrence" and "nothing special" or "just the way it is" (can't question it's purpose or design, there being none of either, as an assumption.), or, the life we know and experience and our evolution was itself it's purpose and intent right from the get go or in other words a blueprint for life with everything fine-tuned and weighted in favor of it, where what could have been otherwise, simply did not occur unless our universe is housed within an ocean of absurdities or of every other possibility wherein no such universe would ever or could ever arise (thus an island in the middle of an ocean of absurdities).


If life exists all over the galaxy, then it certainly is not a fluke occurrence. There may be no purpose. You are seemingly trying to portray that negatively. I don't care if life has a purpose, it will not change the way I live. To suggest that anything was "fine tuned" you need evidence of a fine tuner. You can't just say that it is fine tuned, just because it's the way it is. Where is the evidence of any of these fundamental forces being changed or tuned?


I did say that, at the quantum level, we need to note the recent discovery that the higgs boson particle had a mass that was trillions of times smaller than expected and appears to have undergone a breathtaking number of reductions and fine tuning in order to, presumably, make this reality possible.

Admittedly I'm not a particle physics expert, but if you could give me a source on this that would be great. Again, to suggest the particle was fine tuned requires a fine turner and evidence that it has changed over time. Also, if the higgs boson particle had reduced it's size over time, why would that imply design?



In other words, if that's a random occurrence (in the non-believer paradigm), then the infinite universes, strong anthropic principal, is immediately evoked at this point, wherein every other possibility was/is also expressed and we just happen to be in the right one ie: life as a coincidence or a fluke ie: it just is what it is and any evidence for design, and purpose who's aim is life itself including our own life and experience, that's just a selection bias on our part or a reading into it and projecting something upon it (intelligence) that it does not possess being without mind or an originating conception (whim) of a mind, because, according to the strong anthropic principal, we simply would not be here if it were any other way, so to even ask such a question or pose such an idea (intelligent design) from the POV of a subjective observer, is absurd and meaningless, where anything we see that appears to possess design elements is just looking for patterns, when those patterns, including life itself, is just a mindless artifact of a random occurrence that does not really posses any intelligence, any purpose, or intent.


First of all, you don't need an infinite number of universes or a single infinite universe to rectify that. I agree that it's meaningless to ask a subjective observer if we were designed or arose naturally. You can't get any real answers just philosophizing about it. There's also the possibility that there is way more to the universe than we realize, so to look at it through our eyes and try to figure out everything can be very difficult. Humans are inquisitive and have a subconscious need to know everything, despite that being almost impossible. It is emotionally soothing to think we were specially designed, so that bias seeps through in all walks of life. You can appeal to consciousness and emotion and suggest we wouldn't be here if the universe weren't fine tuned, but in reality there is no way to know that.


For me, in the face of the evidence, I don't see why the appeal to a mindless random occurrence or fluke with life as an accidental artifact, framed within the context of the multi-universe strong anthropic principal, is the better argument.


What is random about chemical reactions and gravity pulling things together? Last I checked they were predictable. You keep using the word random. Mindless, yes, completely random, no. Things react as we expect them to react in a universe that contains gravity and other forces. The universe is a giant game of cause and effect. And what exact evidence are you referring to? I've seen all philosophy thus far. I also do not know what you mean by "accidental artifact" or "multi-universe strong anthropic principal". The anthropic principle merely states that the observations of the universe must be compatible with the conscious life that observes it. That's just a basic part of reality, of course that is necessary, but it suggests nothing about design.
edit on 8 19 16 by Barcs because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: TzarChasm

That is interesting, but isn't evolution about evolving into a more perfect specimen?


Actually no. Evolution is about adaptation, primarily to the current environment and circumstances. There is no pinnacle evolution because the world is always changing. no perfect evolution.


true that,

I thought of many questions before I fell asleep last night, but forgot them all.


write them down next time.



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: SLAYER69
I don't know what to believe and don't think that anyone will ever really know for sure. Humans are very good at fooling themselves with things they want to believe.

Just to put accounts of the bible, quran, and torah into perspective, I'll leave this pic:

It's such a tiny little circle, isn't it?



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: SLAYER69
I don't know what to believe and don't think that anyone will ever really know for sure. Humans are very good at fooling themselves with things they want to believe.

Just to put accounts of the bible, quran, and torah into perspective, I'll leave this pic:

It's such a tiny little circle, isn't it?


what about the part in genesis?



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: Skid Mark



It's such a tiny little circle, isn't it?

Yes.. but the nonsense originated from a much, much smaller circle.




posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: Skid Mark



It's such a tiny little circle, isn't it?

Yes.. but the nonsense originated from a much, much smaller circle.





...i dont get it.



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 05:09 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: doclec
a reply to: Raggedyman

All those things that you mentioned are evolutionary developments rather than instantaneous designs though. I could do all the research you want me to but the conclusion would point to stages of animal development that are leftovers from previous anatomies. Looking for an intellegent design in these structures is just...illogical.


Whale pelvic bones are very important to whales, I have read they were vestigial, thats not true, without those hipbones whales would be extinct. But to you they are vestigial, though they most definitely are not, a common lie by evolutionists
Wisdom teeth as well

You wont research, to lazy and you dont think you are wrong


Do you have any actual research of your own to share?


Google whale pelvic hipbone, uses



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 05:15 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: SLAYER69
I don't know what to believe and don't think that anyone will ever really know for sure. Humans are very good at fooling themselves with things they want to believe.

Just to put accounts of the bible, quran, and torah into perspective, I'll leave this pic:

It's such a tiny little circle, isn't it?


And look today, anything that happens still on
this small little world that shapes everything still happens in that even smaller little circle

The US is tied to Israel, Russia, Germany, the whole Muslim world, the Brits, much of Europe.
Why?
For this insignificant slice of desert

Strange



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 05:41 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman
Possibly oil? Rare earth minerals?



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 07:41 PM
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a reply to: Skid Mark

Yeah, but before oil and rare earth minerals where valuable

I think you missed the point
It's a very small insignificant country and people yet they have always, from the biggining of time almost played a very major part of history
Almost as if they are a chosen people, almost as if Satan wants the Jews utterly destroyed

Almost makes a person thing considering the bible, the Jews history, the state of the world, Israel, Jerusalem is the key to the world



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 07:59 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Skid Mark

Yeah, but before oil and rare earth minerals where valuable

I think you missed the point
It's a very small insignificant country and people yet they have always, from the biggining of time almost played a very major part of history
Almost as if they are a chosen people, almost as if Satan wants the Jews utterly destroyed

Almost makes a person thing considering the bible, the Jews history, the state of the world, Israel, Jerusalem is the key to the world



Almost... but not quite.



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 08:39 PM
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I've gone over to the other side of the mirror.

Now I cannot STOP "seeing". Once the Flash installs It is lodged in your consciousness where space or time cannot influence, weaken or change the blazing opened Door. I fight to NOT look for decades now. Although I take an infinitesimal Drink of the Flash most cautiously every now and then.



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 08:49 PM
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originally posted by: tkwasny
I've gone over to the other side of the mirror.

Now I cannot STOP "seeing". Once the Flash installs It is lodged in your consciousness where space or time cannot influence, weaken or change the blazing opened Door. I fight to NOT look for decades now. Although I take an infinitesimal Drink of the Flash most cautiously every now and then.
What?



posted on Aug, 19 2016 @ 11:41 PM
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a reply to: SLAYER69

Slayer, first of all, I was beginning to think you have forsaken this place. Secondly, thank you for this post. Sacred geometry has always been a topic of study that I have disregarded due to my upbringing, but after watching these videos I must say that my mind has been changed, or rather, blown.

How this pertains to a creator, I cannot say, but I will admit that the evidence is convincing enough for me to conclude that the ancients were on the same page, reading from the book. Which book, I don't know.

But as Randall stated more than a few times in the videos, the numbers don't lie. Coincidences surely do occur throughout history, but none of this magnitude and depth.

Did the Egyptians measure out the diameter of the earth, or was it common knowledge at the time?

Not only that, but what about the mile as a measurement? Was that something that was handed down to them, or was there a common denominator present that was available, which allowed them to utilize its measurement?

And lastly, the numbers in the book of revelation. I have always had a feeling that they were more than just arbitrary or ritualistic but that they were referring to something more... cosmic. The theologians I grew up reading didn't dare speculate on their significance to anything other than metaphors or symbols of God himself. And those who did try to associate those numbers to something more tangible than the spiritual were labeled heretics.

Once again, you have stirred my imagination and curiosity and caused me to think, and research, and want to learn more about a subject I have all but forgot.

Thank you.



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: Barcs

The mass of the higgs boson particle has been determined to be unnaturally fine-tuned, along with about 20 other constants.

Just Google Higgs Boson, unnaturalness, and fine-tuning.

This is right at the leading edge of modern science, and the scientists are not at all happy about it. They've been hoping to explain it with something called super-symmetry but that's not working, so, the appeal is then made to a strong anthropic multi-universe theory to try to explain it and avoid the implication that's starting them in the face.

What would be so terrible about making a profound discovery about our true place in the grand scheme of things as something that was intended by design?

And yes, fine tuning by design, suggests a fine tuner and that the life we experience was generated on purpose by anticipation from initial conditions.

What I see is something that's significant and meaningful and purpose driven. This does not mean to say however that there was not also an evolutionary process at work, but that said, if mankind was part of that design and a meteor wiped out the dinosaurs, well then that meteor was right on time.

And as to the moon, that's been running an aggressive evolutionary program on life on earth all along, and it is a rather astounding "coincidence" that during the epoch when there are observers to see it and notice it, that the moon is precisely the same visible diameter as the sun or a perfect reflection of the sun. You can say that it's meaningless, but I say that it can serve as a type of allegory that was intended to be recognized.

edit on 20-8-2016 by AnkhMorpork because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 01:56 AM
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originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
a reply to: Barcs

The mass of the higgs boson particle has been determined to be unnaturally fine-tuned, along with about 20 other constants.

Just Google Higgs Boson, unnaturalness, and fine-tuning.

This is right at the leading edge of modern science, and the scientists are not at all happy about it. They've been hoping to explain it with something called super-symmetry but that's not working, so, the appeal is then made to a strong anthropic multi-universe theory to try to explain it and avoid the implication that's starting them in the face.

What would be so terrible about making a profound discovery about our true place in the grand scheme of things as something that was intended by design?

And yes, fine tuning by design, suggests a fine tuner and that the life we experience was generated on purpose by anticipation from initial conditions.

What I see is something that's significant and meaningful and purpose driven. This does not mean to say however that there was not also an evolutionary process at work, but that said, if mankind was part of that design and a meteor wiped out the dinosaurs, well then that meteor was right on time.

And as to the moon, that's been running an aggressive evolutionary program on life on earth all along, and it is a rather astounding "coincidence" that during the epoch when there are observers to see it and notice it, that the moon is precisely the same visible diameter as the sun or a perfect reflection of the sun. You can say that it's meaningless, but I say that it can serve as a type of allegory that was intended to be recognized.


Wow
Thats been an interesting read, I havnt come across that information before.
Not for main stream attention I guess

Make a thread on that, it would be very good



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 03:28 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman


Wow
Thats been an interesting read, I havnt come across that information before.
Not for main stream attention I guess

Make a thread on that, it would be very good


Ok, I will. I suspect that there is what I call a sword of reason that slices away from the multi-universe, strong anthropic principal, and then all we're left with is a standard model of physics that holds up, even in its prediction of the Higgs Boson, but then the Higgs Boson turned out to have a mass less than expected and predicted by that same standard model, by trillions of reductionist adjustments or unnatural fine-tuning to the nth degree - so they invoke the multi-universe theory of string theory, but apparently that doesn't work either, not when the strong anthropic principal is invoked as an explanation. So it's like the end of science, with no more particles available to produce a super-symmetry.

It (Higgs Boson fine-tuning) would be like the total American budget, as it is, with no possible expectation of it ever balancing, inexplicably doing so, to the very penny. It's like super fine-tuned, but to evoke the multi-universe, strong anthropic principal, is an absolute fallacy and the most unscientific conclusion that could ever be conscieved to explain it, when the other possibility is simply - God or intelligent designer/fine-tuner.

The other possibility, as I stated before, is that in the fullness of eternity, and whether you believe in the Big Bang or not, we're still sandwiched between two eternities, even now - all other possibile configurations, to infinity, weere explored or expressed, or .. considered, before the ideal configuraton that would produce the world as we know it, was "conceived" and "birthed". God probably measures twice (Xnth) and cuts once, so whether by God or an imagined perfect fine-tuner (same difference), how could the "epiphany" of the universe not be thought of as a thoughtform or a conception with intelligence, and when we add fine-tuning, there's the evidence and the proof in the pudding.

The alternative to intent/design, is to be like a island in an ocean of absurdity, that is sustained and upheld by everything that is not and did not come to pass in this universe.

It's very hard on the scientists, this outcome.

But, moving back to the premise of this thread, it raises the very real possibility that we are on the verge of rediscovering our true place in the cosmos, placing us on the same sort of footing of the ancients but at the very leading edge of modern science, if it can avoid an atheist bias and opt for the absurd instead and thus end science.


edit on 20-8-2016 by AnkhMorpork because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 03:57 AM
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a reply to: AnkhMorpork

"This hole must've been designed and tuned just for me", said the puddle.
edit on 20-8-2016 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 05:07 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

When you speak of Jews, do you mean the ancient people that used to live, in the area that is called Israel, or do you mean the Khazar dogs, that Israel was given to, after WW2?

How odd is the fact, that Islam is from Judaism? halal-kosher-and so on...
The only difference is that Judaism can not ever accept a prophet that sees visions- alone- and not as mass revelations..

Edit- i wish there would be an old fairy tale that says- thou shall give the whole planet to solve,
and may all nations bring offerings of funyuns and cola to him.

edit on 20-8-2016 by solve because: funyuns!!! bring them to me!!



posted on Aug, 20 2016 @ 08:49 AM
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If I thought solving the worlds problems was supplying everyone with Funyuns and cola I would be setting up a free Funyuns and cola outlet

Anyway, talking about the people of the holy land



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