I was avoiding this thread because I suspected where it went. However, I was just a little curious...Sep, you were right, this thread should have been called "Let's bash Islam".

Sigh...

Get ready, I completely agree, I have never called Christianity a Religion of Peace. No not once...........

How frustraiting is must be and has been for Christ to "asK" man to love one another all the time knowing it was impossible.

What do you make this?

Matt 10.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He is speaking to the Appostiles..........

Originally posted by Byrd
NB: I stopped with three examples. I can easily find a hundred or more current examples.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I cringe any time I hear about an abortion doctor being killed. There are a lot of Christians out there who just don't get the message. Yeah, abortion's wrong, but you don't fight sin with sin.

As for Christianity not being a religion of peace, where in the Gospel does it promote this? To base a faith on the workings of some individuals, not the whole, would be like saying the United States is 100% conservative because Bush was elected...You don't agree with that, do you?

What is the difference between Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam and all abortion doctors.............nothing, they are all mass murderers.........

Originally posted by DrHoracid
What is the difference between Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam and all abortion doctors.............nothing, they are all mass murderers.........

well you can add mister george w. bush to this list.

Originally posted by riddle930

This is another basic problem. Extremists tend to forget that such statements were provided for a people at war, to guide their survival, and so they do not necessarily apply literally today!

Anyways... keep em coming glad to answer any more questions

Thank you for your patient response Riddle.

The problem is that while the ancient text may be taken out of context, the Sharia (Islamic Law) enforces the Qur'an the way it is written. This is why Muslim women in many arabic countries are not allowed to drive, can leave the house only in the company of a male family member, must walk BEHIND that male family member, is subjected to extreme punishment (stoning until death) if she strays from the marriage, must be covered at all times etc.

Moderate Muslims constantly make reference to the "minority" of extremism; yet there was and are governments (Taliban etc) that sanction this "extreme" form of Islam. Islam mandates that all muslims must memorize the Qur'an in its entirety and children are forced to do this in madrassas--even though may be illiterate. Illiteracy among Muslim children in many of the countries is high and they therefore memorize the Qur'an based on what they are told. They don't have the ability to analyze and put into context the teachings of the Qur'an so these madrassas become breeding grounds for future "extremists". This strict application of Islam is indeed the fastest growing ideology today and to believe that this is limited to only a relative few extremists is denying the true danger that many parts of the world is facing--including the US and Europe.

Basically, i couldnt agree more with what you are saying Freedom_for_sum

However, to start with.. i would like to bring to your attention a few notes. You've obviously done a good deal of research about the topic.. but there is one very interesting point. Those wierd institutions you believe to be mindlessly teaching kids the Quoran are indeed called a madrasa, and the correct plural for it is infact "madares" and it simply means SCHOOL!
I think what you meant to say is a "Kuttab". This is an institution mainly founded to teach religion and language, as opposed to a "madrasa" which is just any school.

You see, it is very common in third world countires, and in some rural parts of Egypt, where there are almost no or very little schools available, for religious institutions and mosques (muslim churches!) to aid in the education of the people, as im sure many churches do all over Europe and the states. Naturally, their aim is to produce individuals with a solid religious and lingual background. However, the only thing they dont do is mindlessly teach kids to recite the Quoran.

I would like to tell you a small story, of a guy called Taha Hussein. He was an egyptian, the seventh of thirteen children! He grew up in rural Egypt, and to in a relatively poor family. Additionally, he went blind at a very early age. Despite his disability, he was accepted into the local "kuttab". There they tought him the best foundation there was for language and religion, and he was capable of reciting and explaining the entire Quoran. And what is even more amazing is... the teachings this young blind boy recieved enabled him to do the following...

1) Recieve the first PhD to be issued from the newly founded Cairo University in Egypt under the british regim.

2) Recieve a PhD from the French university "Sorbonne", which is a well established university in literature.

3) Write numerous local, national and international novels, many of which have been translated into other languages.

4) Became the Egypian Minister of Education in 1950.

5) Was awarded honorary doctorates from French, British, Spanish and Italian universities.

6) President Gamal Abd Al-Nasser (An Egyptian President) bestowed on him the highest Egyptian decoration, normally, reserved for heads of state.

7) In 1973, he received the United Nations Human Rights Award.

All of this he managed to achieve building only on the original teachings of his local "kuttab".

So you see, the error definately does not come from the fact that there are muslim institutions that aim to decrease illitracey, and I can personally guarentee you that you cannot learn to recite the Quoran without learning to read and write, as it is virtually impossible, due to the extensive vocabulary it contains, and the immense amount of arabic punctuation!


The problem is all due to extremists. If they did as you said they did... just simply teach their kida to read the Quoran, then that would be the biggest favour they'll ever do.. but they dont! They just teach them to obey orders.

The other point you mentioned is how Islam treats women. It is perfectly true that women are not treated very good in places like Taliban and Saudi Arabia.. but those are the only two i can think of... and its not really as extreme as you said.. i mean, even in Saudi, they dont have to walk behind they're male family member! I've been to Saudi! And as for the stoning part, in Saudi, this form of punishment is supposedly applied for both the male and female if they stray from marriage.

However, none of these things defend in anyway the way women are treated in those countries. I as a muslim am appaled at some of the things they do over there. Therefore... i ask you to consider a place where i think islam is at its best, at least for now! (and its hard to say that without showing off... ) I think Egypt is by far the most modernized Islamic country. YOu walk in Egypt and its not far off Newyork (I picked newyork cause of the traffic basically!)
Generally, women are treated just as u'd expect anywhere in the states.
and i can get u some pics if u'd like! hehe

Anyways,, i'm sure i've definately got the longest posts on here hehehe... but i was just hoping to mention all the points u brought up.

Riddle930

You make some very good counter-points and I appreciate your position.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that most "moderate" Muslims, such as yourself, seem to be very quiet on these issues we've been discussing. They seem either unable or unwilling to aswer some of the questions that we've touch upon here. In fact, the best opportunity presented the "moderate" majority would seem to be CAIR (Council on American-Islmaic Relationships) here in the US. However, instead of broaching these difficult subjects in a healthy way, they instead label those like me, who ask these tough questions, as "Islamophobes" or "hate inciters" and use the legal system in an attempt to silence or squash us and our opinions. This doesn't help your cause. In fact it cripples the positions held by moderate Islamic beliefs and further bolsters "Islamophobes" view that there is something more sinister with your religion.

Care to comment?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Riddle930

You make some very good counter-points and I appreciate your position.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that most "moderate" Muslims, such as yourself, seem to be very quiet on these issues we've been discussing. They seem either unable or unwilling to aswer some of the questions that we've touch upon here. In fact, the best opportunity presented the "moderate" majority would seem to be CAIR (Council on American-Islmaic Relationships) here in the US. However, instead of broaching these difficult subjects in a healthy way, they instead label those like me, who ask these tough questions, as "Islamophobes" or "hate inciters" and use the legal system in an attempt to silence or squash us and our opinions. This doesn't help your cause. In fact it cripples the positions held by moderate Islamic beliefs and further bolsters "Islamophobes" view that there is something more sinister with your religion.

Care to comment?

There will be no answer because there is no such thing as "moderate" islam, only those who are afriad to speak the vile spew that is in the Koran.

Drhoracid, you are as much of a zealot as any of the Islamic fanatics are.

Personally, im agnostic but i was raised anglican and chose at 12 that religions had too many faults and have since then been quite happily respectful of others religions.

i think that the only religion of peace you will find is Buddhism as they are complete pacifists.

Religion is the opiate of the masses - Karl Marx

i dont agree with what marx's teacings about communism are but that quote is true, men need something to fall back on for ethics, morality and decency.

naturally im interpreting it how i think it should be interpreted but thats my fault.

Is it a childs fault if his parents are misguided fools who think america should die? i havent met a single Muslim who wasnt well educated and incredibly polite and enjoyed arguments about religion. every single one thought the fanatics were fools.

I cannot read arabic but my father is fluent in it and even spent a few years living in Saudi - he said the only strange thing really about living there was the size of the hail stones and the damage they did to your car - hes anglican
and wasn't treated like an infidel as some fanatics call westerners. thanks to the world needing the oil that the arab states have and the arabs needing to adjust their culture for buisness Islam is getting more and more diluted from what it was.

From what ive experienced of Islam, i find it is a belief system that falls back on basic principles but does need some bringing up to date, like the punishments for adultery and stealing.

theres a story in the bible about a group of men wanting to stone a girl for adultery and he says l'let he who is with out sin cast the first stone'.

it is true that if we followed this rule maybe a handful of people would apply to this rule - people with no knowledge of evil. and would not casting the stone be a sin for it would ensure the death of a person, so is that not as good as murder?

Religion brings about basic human rights mostly and respecting others religions is necessary for the world to function.

as for casting off religion completely, would not that make science a religion?

Just my opinion,
Rubber

Freedom_For_Sum

You are absolutely right. Personally, i think that the main reason behind all the anti islamic feelings especially in the states is mainly caused by the actions of such "islamic institutions" such as the one you named.. and ofcourse the unforgivable actions of extremists.

I can honestly tell you that i do not blame the american people for having such anti-islamic feelings, and this i can tell u from experience!

First of all, i'd like to tell you that im an egyptian-american, though both of my parents are egyptain, my father got his nationality while doing his PhD in the states a long time ago, and hence the nationality was passed to me.
In the summer of 2003, i was in the states, and had signed up with one of the dirver's ed classes (i was 16 then) and i went there for 9 days to finish my course.

Right next to the driver's ed classroom, there was a small islamic centre. The entire centre's front was made of glass, which was painted opaque white. You could not see anything of what was going on inside. All you could see is dark men dressed completely in white, frowning! and having beards that go all the way down to their waists, coming and going in and out of the centre. Now... i put myself in an american's shoes... i'd definately be worried. Additionally, you say that the Islamic American institutions over there all also secretive and refuse to answer your questions and always try to shut you up!

Believe me, from what i've seen muslims do in the states, your feeling are completely justified. And this is also why when i talk to u, or any other american who does like islam, has doubts about and so on, i never feel offended, because i know what kind of muslims you guys have in America... trash of the trash.

U are completely right to say that the actions of the CAIR are wrong and simply stupid, for the basis of convincing anyone of your point is to be persuasive and well-spoken, and to discuss the points they argue, not only the ones you think you've researched well enough. And even then, you cannot guarentee you've persuaded them.. but the least you can do is help them have a clearer view.

What i have to tell you is... if you wish to judge muslims.. try as best as you can to exclude the ones in the states... for muslims in the states tend to be under-educated, poor, anti-american fools (not all of them of-couse, dont mean to offend anyone here), who just wont give you the real view of what its really all about, usually because they feel vulnerable in a supposedly oppressive society.

A real muslim, or one who is convinced with his or her religion, would not be afraid or offended when he is questioned about his religion.. just like any good christian or jew would do. Infact, here in egypt, we had this very high ranking islamic "sheikh" (like priest) called "El Sha'arawy" who use to have an annual meeting with a group of people who would questions him about islam. (he died like 5 years ago or so). But the point is, he was never afraid to face people with doubts and questions

As for DrHoracid's comment, he is partially right... technically "moderate" muslims like myself.. are simply so because we are well educated and open-minded. It is actually typical to see that the lower you go in the social status, the less education, the more people there are that don't really understand the readings of the Quoran. But contrary to what he said.. we all attempt (to the best of our abilities) to do what's written, just like all christians and jews do.

Anyways, glad to comment.. keep posting..

(PS.. can u tell me how old u are Freedom_for_sum??)



[edit on 27-1-2005 by riddle930]

Originally posted by Rubber
Drhoracid, you are as much of a zealot as any of the Islamic fanatics are.
nip>
as for casting off religion completely, would not that make science a religion?

Just my opinion,
Rubber

The problem is that the "radical mullah's" are the one's in charge and always will be in charge. Peaceful muslims are just that.peaceful. They can't or won't "fight" the radical elements. Christians have the same "flaw". Today there are so many things that "qualify" as a religion.

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by Rubber
Drhoracid, you are as much of a zealot as any of the Islamic fanatics are.
nip>
as for casting off religion completely, would not that make science a religion?

Just my opinion,
Rubber

The problem is that the "radical mullah's" are the one's in charge and always will be in charge. Peaceful muslims are just that.peaceful. They can't or won't "fight" the radical elements. Christians have the same "flaw". Today there are so many things that "qualify" as a religion.

I think though the differance with the Christian religion is that they have a structored leadorship, with hairaki from Preists all the way to Popes and Archbishops.
Where as a mosque has a Mullah but he then has no one to answer to.