Islam Religion of Peace!

No thanks, I'd rather live my life in a way I personally feel to be just and beneficial than blindly follow a fairy tale written to keep man under control just because I'm told to do so. If you or anyone else want to, well thats your option. I think I will distance myself from any "god/deity" that has led to the horrible persecution, suffering and death of millions of people.

I'll say again, IMHO religion is a primitive custom that has time and time again lead good people to do horrible things on a monumental scale. Man needs to grow beyond this fantasy just as he has grown byoned Santa and the tooth fairy. Maybe then we can all work together as one people. Until then, all of "gods people" will continue to kill eachother in his name..

[edit on 23-1-2005 by Veltro]

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Veltro: How dare you mock religion! I've spent a lot of time deciding which team to join-- Uh, I mean belief to have!

Actually you are mocking "God" and he will have something to say to you both somewhere around Dec 22nd 2012. Give or take an aeon for judging the dead and then the living. Regardless of what "flavor" you think fits you, keep the commandments and believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God and you won't have to do the lake of fire thingy......

Well if on that date it is really the end of the world you just debunked your own religon, im pretty sure you can not predict of fortell when the end of the world will happen in christianity. I also noticed you not answering my post in the other thread about attacking iran or this one?

[edit on 23-1-2005 by zi2525]

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by Sep

Originally posted by DrHoracid
But misguided or not they are still a threat to this planet and I would not hesitate to stop them by any means necessary.

They are a part of this planet. You have no right to do anything to them, just like they have no right to do anything to you.

Read this

www.danielpipes.org...

I've never read the daniel pipes article before although I have a few similar links:

www.caledonianrecord.com...

www.angelfire.com...

www.republicanandproud.com...

They have been exporting terror for many years and if they get a nuke armageddon is on............sooner rather than later.

Originally posted by Frith
Does defense including offensive tactics like country-wide invasions?

You betchya'. Preemptive strikes. I'm all for it. If someone is walking
up to you with hate in his eyes, his fists clenched, a knife and a gun
at his side all the while screaming at ya' .... 'death to all infidels
including THAT one' and he's pointing at YOU ... you bet that's reason
to strike first. To wait to see what is going on and to talk to someone
who is so obviously deranged ... that is suicide.

Originally posted by Halfofone

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If Rome proclaims dogmatically the theological truth that
Christ is Divine (which they have) ... that's binding.

If Rome proclaims that the war in Iraq is wrong .... that's just
Euro-centric drivel that has no meaning.

geeze.

This is of course your opinion.
IMO any dogmatic statement has no meaning.

No, that's not just my opinion.
It's Catholic teaching for Catholics.
Someone brought up Catholics and that we were with
the Muslims because the Vatican didn't want the war.
That isn't so. Catholics are only obligated to believe
what Rome teaches dogmatically ... we don't have to
believe or listen to opinions. The euro-centric anti-war
chatter coming out of the vatican was just opinion and
not binding on Catholics.

Originally posted by Trent

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus said
not to defend yourself?

Did Jesus not teach to turn the other cheek?
Matthew 5:38:45

Well ... looks like I disagree with Christ then.
This attitude is fine when dealing with people
one on one. But when it comes to terrorist
nations and groups wanting to blow up my
child and my way of life, and being pigheaded
and not wanting to discuss the situation,
... then screw 'turn the other cheek'. I'm a mom.
No one had better threaten my child.

Maybe someone should put up a picture of the goodly "Christians" blowing up abortion clinics and murdering the Doctors who perform them, all in the name of their god. Maybe a montage of some Christian extremist decrying stem cell research next to the portraits of the thousands of men women and children that such research might have saved. It would go nicely next to the pic provided of the representatives of the "evils" of Islam.



[edit on 23-1-2005 by Veltro]

[edit on 23-1-2005 by Veltro]

Originally posted by Veltro
Maybe a montage of some Christian extremist decrying
stem cell research next to the portraits of the thousands
of men women and children that such research might
have saved.

How about a montage of the portraits of the thousands
and thousands of people who have been murdered in
stem cell research. Fetal stem cell research is immoral.
Period. To farm raise humans just to harvest for
research is BEYOND evil.

OTHER stem cells show significant
promise and are being tested.

This is an EXCELLENT site - it will take
a reader at least an hour to read through.
Don't forget to read the letter to John Kerry
from the Doctors .... Interesting!
www.stemcellresearch.org...

However, I think this is a topic for a seperate discussion,
I don't want to hijack Dr H's thread ....

[edit on 1/23/2005 by FlyersFan]

So much Hatred.....

When will you guys realise that a lot of the reasons that we, the people, hate each other, is because of those in power? With their twisted views on the world, they seek to control us through religion and media. Sit back a moment and look at them. They laugh at us, the manipulated. By hating each other, we are only serving their agendas.

Their agenda? Power!

They attempt to brainwash us daily. It is true for everyone here. Obviously though, there are many of us who can see past the crap. Unfortunately, however, there are some who don't.

Whether you buy into Muslim Extremism, CNN, Al Jazeera, or Fox News, it makes little difference. By allowing yourselves to be swayed, you only serve them in their ambitions. You think those in power care for you? They don't! You are but mere pawns to them!

I'll not say religion is evil, as everyone is entitled to their beliefs in my opinion, and besides which, there is a wealth of wisdom to be gained from religion. It is those in religion, who seek to control it, who give it a bad name. It doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Hindu, if they seek to control followers to suit their own goals, then it is bad.

Not hating each other, and each other's beliefs, is not about being politically correct. It is about trying to live in peace.

Something we should all want.

Hasn't it ever occured to anyone that the fastest growing threads are ones like this where we toss our biases and hatred at each other...honestly, there ARE better things to spend time on. Now, some of you might genuinely believe that by spreading your beliefs about Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism, or Pokemon) being evil, you are exercising your right to free speech, and are informing the world of an important truth. Well, if that is the case, you're wasting your time, because NO ONE is going to actually be convinced on this board...people take lifetimes to develop their beliefs, and no amount of mudslinging at each other's religions is going to change those beliefs with a few clicks and keystrokes. So if you wanna fight the evils of Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham, or Pikachu, save your breath and think of another way.

Now, if (as I suspect) most of these posts here are about nothing more than people ranting and raving to let out their hatred of certain religions, countries people or otherwise...What is the point?

My own views on the name of this thread (what started it all off): "Islam a Religion of Peace!" Islam is a religion of whatever it's adherents (and it's enemies) want it to be. Religion is a tool for those willing to use it. Christianity was used as a rallying tool for the troops back in the crusades, Judaism used as a tool to incite mutinies in the Israeli Defense Force to oppose the Gaza Pullout, and Islam, of course, used as a tool to justify terrorism against the United States.

ALL religions have been used in the past, and they will continue to be. It is a sad fact that most of the world's terrorists are Muslims...but that is not to say that most of the world's Muslims are potential terrorists. Islam is simply the latest religion to undergo a wave of radicalization. Lets not forget that Christians burnt Joan of Arc, and set forth a regime of control accross Europe during the Dark Ages (does this sound familiar in today's Middle East?). The world's leading Christian's have gotten over that, but unfortunately, a fractured Islamic leadership-mishmash of Radical Scholars, Terrorists, and Moderate Voices, coupled with the fact that most of the world's Muslims live in relative poverty, means that Islam is simply the easiest religion to adopt for nefarious purposes.

So what do we do? Nuke em, as some on this board have suggested? No, not that. What we do is, we fight those of them that threaten us as well as any other enemy, without religious discrimination. What we need to do is get rid of religious hatred, which merely adds to the fuel to the argument that the US is conducting its policy as a conspiracy against Islam. We need to remove the overtly rascist propaganda from our policy decisions, which have always been with one intention: Protecting the Freedom and Security of the United States, without regard to race or religion of those to be protected, or those to be attacked.

For the record, I am a neocon, and it personally makes me ashamed that many of those in my ideological camp resort to this low form of 'free speech'. Remember that your free speech is something that thousands of Americans have died for, within the borders of our country, and abroad. We fought two hundred years ago, and we fight again for that freedom in Afghanistan and Iraq. By Using that Freedom to spread racism (which weakens the strength of America as a tolerant society, and encourages hatred against us), you effectively lessen the achievability of our mission in Iraq, and more importantly, you reduce the value of the sacrifice of other Americans. With rights come responsibility.

My intent was not to hijack but to show that there are evil people of all religions and people who though not inherently evil, do evil deeds in the name of their god. When showcasing a particular religion such as Islam as evil when it claims to be of peace, one must ask themselves how peaceful their own religion is. Christians have commited just as much horror as Muslims. The truely evil use religion as an excuse to carry out their own personal agendas and the blind masses follow them. Political leaders such as Bush then use these hatreds to their own means once again dragging the blind followers with him. Step back and stop viewing this as Islam v. Christianity or Judaism. Once you do this you can truely see what is at work here.

I agree totally with the last poster on that. People need to realize that these "terrorists" are only a tool. a tool used to commit an act that then draws the fear and fury of the targeted people. The person (bush) in power then uses this fear to manipulate the people into following his will, and so on. Too many people are starting to think of this as a relgious war or are just blindly slapping Osama: Wanted dead or Alive stickers on the back of their SUV and screaming for preemptive strikes.

Religion is truely not the issue here even though that is what some want you to believe. These Muslims in question are people being controlled to serve a greater purpose. They believe in what they are doing and that is just what their masters want. Switch that crecent for a cross and it would be the same thing. We cannot solve this crisis by blindly following those in power. If we do then the pieces will just keep falling in place for them. The people who are truely in charge are leading both sides and must be found.

Ah veltro, how it saddens me that you, a liberal (as your comments on the President seem to indicate) are the only one to see eye-to-eye with me on this. Just Kidding, I'm glad that somebody here is against hatred for its own sake.

I don't (obviously) agree with you that President Bush is inciting hatred or using Christianity to fuel his agenda, but I respect your opinion on that. I wish that more people could share opinions and battle out the merits/flaws of ideologies without resorting to spitting in each others faces, and using the words "liberal!" and "conservative!" as insults.

Anyone else feel like flooding this rascist thread with some sense?

Archangel76, I am glad as well. To be honest, I really dont even think that Bush himself is to blame but that it is his "handlers". I'm not even sure if he knows hes being used if thats the case. That may sound totally foil hatted, but that's my hunch.

As for the religious aspect I'm glad someone got my point. Some people so blindly follow their respective religion and demonize other religions that they fail to see their own faiths bloodied past and realize it is no different. And the attrocities commited for religious reasons are too many to list. They also fail to see the hands of the puppetmasters pulling the strings of these terrorists.

Hauling off and invading any country we don't like or demonizing a religion because of the sheep-like terrorists is never going to solve anything. Don't mindlessly follow those of your own faith just because they go to the same building to worship as you do, and don't condem those of another faith because they don't.

Originally posted by Veltro
Archangel76, I am glad as well. To be honest, I really dont even think that Bush himself is to blame but that it is his "handlers". I'm not even sure if he knows hes being used if thats the case. That may sound totally foil hatted, but that's my hunch.

As for the religious aspect I'm glad someone got my point. Some people so blindly follow their respective religion and demonize other religions that they fail to see their own faiths bloodied past and realize it is no different. And the attrocities commited for religious reasons are too many to list.

True, the atrocities committed in the name of religion are completely abhorrent, and (as you rightly say) far too numerous. The reason is simple, though. If you can successfully convince someone that what they are doing serves a higher purpose, they can and will do anything. People have endured the greatest suffering when they believed that they were doing so for their loved ones, their country, and, when they have nothing else to suffer for, their God. The reason for this (in my opinion) is that human's have an inherently selfless streak in them, and that we are most effective when doing something for a cause greater than our own survival - I have no evidence at all to support that in a scientific sense, but it's just what i believe about the human race.

But, veltro, dno't forget that the good that has come from people who believe in religion is also too numerous to list. The same motivations that can compel one to drive a plane into a building can also make someone devote themselves to practising religion as they are meant to be practised, with love. But love is boring, so it gets no headlines. However, in my personal beliefs, I think that religion, like everything else, is a test from God to see if we use it as a force to better ouselves and the world, or to do what the folks you're talking about are doing.

What you imply about a tribe mentality is true though. People will most often blindly follow others simply because they are of the same faith. Now personally, I don't think I'm that innocent of that. Beyond family and friends, my loyalties go from being a Christian, an American, and THEN a human in general. Hence, I guess I am naturally predisposed towards those groups, because they form a group in which I feel more at home than the others. However, the realization that there IS a group mentality needs to be promoted, so that the people doing something are able to be true to themselves and not just do something to go with the flow. But I do believe that many people do sincerely believe in what they say and do, and not just because they come from a particular group, so there is danger of generalizing here. I support the President for my own reasons, which happen to sometimes coincide with the others who support him.

Anyways, I have written enough for one day. Good posts though veltro, although some of your earlier ones did seem a bit too harsh on religion.

Cheers,
Archangel

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Nice try, but the words you posted after a quote with my name are not my words, and you know it. That "choice" was written by someone else.

I know. I wasn't presenting it as your words, but as ideas that are unfortunately not so rare as one would think on the conservative side of things. My goal was to convey that even though some "Muslims" commit atrocious and blind acts of hate, we mustn't ignore that a number of conservatives push for actions that are equally hateful in their principle.

If that doesn't represent your philosophy, all the more power to you. It's all to your credit.

I heard this saying a fair while ago from a very intellectual person: "Not all muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are muslim" and I see truth in that. I am not racist by any twist of the imagination, nor am I religious or political, but I do understand how much more corrupted Islam is compared to any other religion.

Most religions and civilisations seem to be advancing and evolving. It seems the mid-east and most religions based on/around Islam stagnated over a millenia ago to this date. This can not be blamed on colonists. Look at the US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc, etc. Even Hong Kong is doing excellent.

Isreal has a good idea on dealing with terrorist nations, although I know very little about how the situation there. I do know, however, that is Isreal wanted to, they could wipe out a fair few mid-east countries if they wanted to and had no regard for their political standing in the World.

In a religious war, if I was to take a side, I would side with Christian/Judaism against Islam any day.

Sorry about any possible spelling mistakes. I should, perhaps expand on the above at a later date

christianity... a religion of peace!


in the name of god, lets kill all the pagans, that dont want to accept this great religion!




in the name of god, lets have a party and kill a few immigrants!




in the name of god, lets kill all the jews, for they are nothing but communist terrorists, most of them hiding in russia!




religion is not dangerous.
MAN is dangerous!

Souljah has hit directly on what I said earlier about showing some pictures of Christian atrocities. You cannot focus on the evils of one group without also showing that their are skeletons in the closet of another as well. This is true of governments, organizations, religions and even you and I. Too many people blindly jump patriotic/religious bandwagon and following that tribal mentality do regretable things.

Archangel, I thank you for your criticism. I let my emotions get the better of me and was a bit too harsh and I apologize for that. But, The point I was trying to make was basically that there are evils in every religion, and also in every political ideology and many evil deeds have been done in the name of both. I just could have worded it better as I did in my later posts.

I have no problems with religion or people of faith, I know it is a very important part of many people's lives. My problem, as illustrated by Souljah's timely pictures and comment at the end, comes when blind racism manifests itself in the name of religion. Many men have taken the word of their god and twisted it into their own personal warrant of destruction.

I believe the true unifier is love. Love is universal and humans are hard-wired to yearn for it. As long as hatred and warfare are spreading like a plague across this planet, we are going against our instinct and will never be truely happy. If the true meaning of these religions can be rescued and the warped interpretations abolished, it will be a new era for mankind.

[edit on 24-1-2005 by Veltro]

Originally posted by FlyersFan


Well ... looks like I disagree with Christ then.
This attitude is fine when dealing with people
one on one. But when it comes to terrorist
nations and groups wanting to blow up my
child and my way of life, and being pigheaded
and not wanting to discuss the situation,
... then screw 'turn the other cheek'. I'm a mom.
No one had better threaten my child.

For an interesting cultural/historical comment on turning the other cheek:

Back in those days the hand you used to hit someone bore some significance. Striking with the left hand is how one would hit an inferior, and to strike with the right hand is how one would hit an equal. Therefore, when you wanted to hit someone in an insulting manner, you would use the left hand. If that someone were to turn the other cheek, and you wanted to hit him again, you would have to use the right hand, which carried some baggage as hitting with the right hand could be construed as initiating a duel.

Those who insist Jesus did not condone self-defense should explain Luke 22.36: "And He said to them, 'But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.'"

Both Christianity and Islam have their insane murderer segments, it's just that there aren't any states that support Christian terrorism while there are a few states that support Islamic terrorism. While it may be that "true" Muslims are decent folk, they are not currently doing enough on the theological front to marginalize the hatred-spewing terrorist sects. I'll start looking more favorably on Islam after the good Muslims decide to have their own jihad to rid themselves of these mass murderers.

[edit on 1/24/2005 by BeefotronX]

Originally posted by Archangel76

ALL religions have been used in the past, and they will continue to be. It is a sad fact that most of the world's terrorists are Muslims...but that is not to say that most of the world's Muslims are potential terrorists. Islam is simply the latest religion to undergo a wave of radicalization. Lets not forget that Christians burnt Joan of Arc, and set forth a regime of control accross Europe during the Dark Ages (does this sound familiar in today's Middle East?). The world's leading Christian's have gotten over that, but unfortunately, a fractured Islamic leadership-mishmash of Radical Scholars, Terrorists, and Moderate Voices, coupled with the fact that most of the world's Muslims live in relative poverty, means that Islam is simply the easiest religion to adopt for nefarious purposes.

Good post Archangel76. For brevity's sake I decided to only quote the above paragraph.

You're correct when you say that most religions at one time or another have been used to justify/sanction violence. The difference however, as I view it, is that that violence in history was commited against the teachings of those religions; (ie: where does it say in the bible to kill/crusify others).

The actions of the so-called "extremist Islamists" are clearly supported by the Qur'an. "Moderate" Muslims are unable to open the Qur'an and find the peaceful, tolerant, accepting of other beliefs, passages that support the moderates' views. When you ask "moderates" questions about the violent passages in the Qur'an and how they're being applied, they seem impotent to provide logical answers or explain how the "extremists" are hijacking their religion. Instead, they label those asking the tough questions "islamophobes" or "racists" or "inciters of hate". This is what CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) does and in fact uses the American legal system against those asking these tough questions.

I find it ironic that strict followers of Islam consider moderate Muslims apostates; and if one believes in what the Qur'an teaches, they're right! Why would anyone want to follow an ideology that subjugates free-will and the basic human spirit? Who in their right mind would want to live under the oppressive teachings of the Qur'an? Please explain how it is that these "extreme Islamists" have hijacked this "peaceful religion"?