Scientists deliver blow to Clovis myth about how people arrived in America

a reply to: FlyingFox

well the biggie, is really just for empires and that requires dominium.
a reich is a reich
egyptians, romans, facism/communism
all with a taste for tasteless monolithic constructions
to paraphrase terrance mckenna

originally posted by: username74
so can we try to define what we all mean by "advanced" and "civilization"?

Well, there's a definition of 'civilization' which means 'able to form and live in cities' - but that's as used by scientists. When I look at dictionaries, I see all sorts of vague statements (which don't really help.)

For those of you interested in links, there's a nice web page discussing what civilization actually means in social and scientific terms. And it's readable by ordinary folks, thank the gods!

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Harte
Do you think Archaeologists are idiots?

Two words can sum you up: Official Story.

Are we done here?

With that mindset, you were done before anyone started.

Harte

originally posted by: Marduk
a reply to: Wolfenz

Yeah, I think most people would probably prefer to read Graham Hancock's theories in his books rather than badly regurgitated ad nauseum by you thanks

As for "and you Believe INCAS did this ??"
Well it is the Incas who are portrayed in most of the artwork at those sites, didn't you notice that ?
And all the carbon dates come back from the Inca period of Habitation, from like, 500 years before when there was just a village there.

The real glory of the area is the Norte Chico civilisation, which dates back to 4000BCE at Aspero
But I guess you haven't heard of that because it doesn't appear in pseudohistory books much

btw, claiming a culture wasn't capable of something which all the evidence says they did is cultural racism
Are you voting Trump too ?

WOW....

As for "and you Believe INCAS did this ??" Well it is the Incas who are portrayed in most of the artwork at those sites, didn't you notice that ?

Of Course I did ! Notice That , its all over the god dam place... in Peru

not so much in Puma Punku tho..
as most noticeable art work is on the Gate of the Sun Supposedly Virachoca with Winged Humanoids
a calendar dated system ..

I wont refute that who could , but to think that INCA's DID this Advanced Technology all on their OWN
by them SELVES! that knew ONLY ROPE Knotting for a Written History Language !
let alone measurements, and the Tools to do the Job of making the Stone Structures ..

I wouldn't consider the INCA the Master Builders , just the Laborers and Helpers in PUMA Punku more Likely Tiwanaku was constructed by the INCA

but we are talking about a site that been change reconstructed ( MESSED WITH ) since the late 19th century to the 1930s .... yeah i can relate to that...

And all the carbon dates come back from the Inca period of Habitation, from like, 500 years before when there was just a village there.

of course it would ! it was a Village around the Areas ... you know Occupied..
as you said 500 years before .. I assume it was always occupied the area

but who is to say they were the original builders..

and as i said before the carbon dating is done only when the Stone Structured Fell ...
from Destruction Disaster Event of some Kind...

carbon dating only from the time they fell..
then ones untouched not disturbed in the late 19th century and early 20th century that is

just need to find a stone that look like it wasnt ever moved nor Harmed

btw, claiming a culture wasn't capable of something which all the evidence says they did is cultural

I said not Capable on their Own I didn't say they didn't ,
just not on their Own ! from Some Culture more Advanced then they were...

just maybe a Advenced Tech Civilization just gave the INCAs Mayans Aztecs a Boost

Calling me a Racist are ya ?

Im not all White Marduk ... Not Black, Not Asian, Not Indian ( INDIA )

just Plain Mix of White European and 2 Native American Cultures Mohawk & Cree
I expressed this all too well .. in Posts


WOW ...

I wouldn't Vote for Any Political Party in the Election,
its a Embarrassment and SHAMEFULL
on Both Parties its a Dam Circus ..


My Ancestors DID not Advanced Much, living the Lifestyle thousands of years in the Arctic Circle Culture
until The Whites Came ... just a game change in Long Houses then Tepees n Huts



but ,, if the INCANS Mayans Aztecs build them on their Own

why did it not Spread up to North America ! the Technology ?

Puma Punku is just a temple at the Tiahuanaco site. Did you take a look at a map



Its clearly part of the ceremonial complex and built to the same basic design as all the other temples at Tiahuanaco
This is clearly evident from reconstructions
which one of these is Puma Punku ?




The first of those is actually the Akapana temple, they are both constructed by first building an earth mound and then lining it with blocks, its a pretty common method of construction all over the continent...
It doesn't require advanced skills



so you're saying, that only white people can be racist
WOW

These are all the carbon dates from the entire region







So clearly not as old as Graham Hancock wants you to think...

a reply to: Byrd

well heres cynthias best shot from the link.
"studied a few early ones. As big historians, we are seeking a list that delivers no judgment, either for or against civilization, simply a description of what constitutes most actual civilizations.

Here is my stab at a descriptive, balanced list:

surplus food
density of population
specialized occupations
social classes topped by small elites
subordination of women
coerced tribute, collected by force if necessary
state religions
monumental public buildings
standing armies
frequent warfare
notable modification of the natural environment
lavish tombs and burial goods for rulers and elites
system of writing and numbers
regular foreign trade
representative art
calendars, math, other science
some slavery
epidemics of disease

This is my short list:

surplus food
density of population
stratified social ranks
coerced tribute
state systems
accumulated learning

By now it seems clear that any given civilization need not have all the characteristics on a list, only most of them, maybe all of those on a short list. It is also clear that, while there is a core of common characteristics of civilization, any list of them will reflect the judgment and point of view of its author"

now this seems quite comprehensive. and as she states, not all civs have all the listed features. and theres a few odd ones in the long list,
also to point out that some can substitute one for another or an equivalent
surplus food to a hunter is every living edible thing in relation to their present location. there is always surplus unless you take on inhospitable territory.
density of population can be a gathering event
stratified social ranks could be viewed as a place in a team/family above all, a sense of belonging and purpose thats why exile was considered worse than death by some
coerced tribute, i doubt this could come seriously into play until feudal systems (i dont mean feudal in the purest sense) took hold of agricultural populations
i.e. population density. (though there must always have been blood money or compensation according to local or group custom)
state systems- well thats back to feudal systems
accumulated learning- well as we know there are many ways to skin this cat, as long as you have relatively stable demographics

so i would contend that our popular definitions of civilisation is often a description of our civilisation
its also mentioned that civilisation appeared roughly at the same time in seven different locales. now this sounds as much like a population getting back on its feet as much as a stunning coincidental case of linear evolution
so perhaps better to define "civilisation" as "group, cumulative survival strategy" and to push the stickier areas into subsets of "culture" (art, tech, enviroment) and "society" (socio-economic stucture)

originally posted by: Marduk
Puma Punku is just a temple at the Tiahuanaco site. Did you take a look at a map

Its clearly part of the ceremonial complex and built to the same basic design as all the other temples at Tiahuanaco
This is clearly evident from reconstructions
which one of these is Puma Punku ?

The first of those is actually the Akapana temple, they are both constructed by first building an earth mound and then lining it with blocks, its a pretty common method of construction all over the continent...
It doesn't require advanced skills



so you're saying, that only white people can be racist
WOW

Puma Punku is just a temple at the Tiahuanaco site. Did you take a look at a map

ohh here we go again I had this Discussion with you before im talking Strictly PUMA PUNKU and YES Puma Punku is within Tiwanaku I already know this and discussed tis with you and Harte before and PUMA Punku is veered off to a Diagonal side in the distance ... yup.. .63 miles away! a third of a Mile Away away from the MAIN Temple Sites...


The Majority of the Stone's at the PUMA PUNKU ( SITE ) are no where near like the Main Temples and Court yard of Tiwanaco

like the High Tech interlocking H Blocks... explain that one ???
nothing remotely like them anywhere else at the Site ........ Nor for that Matter
any where else in the Whole Wide WORLD! nothing came close ... not Sumerians ,Egyptians, Eithoipains , Romans ,Greeks, Indians ( INDIA ) Indonesian's , China ... TO HAVE have anything like those interlocking H Blocks! yet there is similarity in Peru
from the Old World , pottery, Metal clamp Brackets , differential placement of Stone to have a Stronghold Design ,
and some craftsman work ... which is a dead giveaway there could of been a connection ..
it just the Problem of the time Period

and your Showing Theory's of what the Site of PUMA Punku may of looked Like from some Artist Conjuring... ??

Listen :

the PUMA PunkU site Basicaly looks like it was Blown Apart..

and Scattered

and I know most of History & Stories Mound Builders they are Every where in North America from Florida ,Wisconson OHIO to New york New Hampshire and MAINE ... some Resewbled led the Mayan Temples... just built with wood and Dirt n clay..


Racist ...
I think you mean Culturist !

originally posted by: Marduk
These are all the carbon dates from the entire region

So clearly not as old as Graham Hancock wants you to think...

Sorry marduk i cant read them clearly i just see from the 50s 60s 70s and a few 90s the sampe part
when i try focus on one spot ..

for future reference please thumbnail them ..
so i can blow them up to see the original state size

but... we should recheck the site with new technology !

thanks for the effort anyhow ..

a reply to: Wolfenz
look, as much as i would like to believe, this is not the case, these things cannot work as hinges, they are not precisely the same size! this sort of thing is important!


"like the High Tech interlocking H Blocks... explain that one ??? "
stop it.! you are not helping.
if you really believe in this, you must create a framework in which it seems logical for people to create said thing.

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Wolfenz

hmmm. as an aside, as this thread is eating itself, your diagram of the Hs.
its been postulated thet were hinge joints, which they could be, except they are different sizes, which makes it a degree weirder for me. because the degree of precision, and proportion inplies this is intentional.
the fingers, yes, ive pointed this out myself.
theres some deep water here. its easy to draw a visual reference, but that doesnt have to be the case. the symbology represented could be similar because of inherited techniques, measuring systems or cultural factors.
it doesnt have to be a stylised representation, reproduced.
when we roll back through the generations, we begin to deal with reduced (rare) pools of humanity, and the fact they were making things in stone, means there was alot of labour invested in something whose significance we dont quite understand.
although i doubt it, and to clarify a point, all the stone remains we covet, could be replicas of stone remains, or monuments, or improvements of, and we would be none the wiser.
a copy of a thing could just be an amalgamation of what a sculptor saw in stone on his travels, or it could be direct inheritance. unless you have a copy of a thing and and the thing, or related things, then its an original.
so you could say what all these unknown sculptors have in common is a very clear recognition of the vastness of time before them and presumably to come and a very real sense of their own insignificance and a desire to thwart this fact of life. oh and massive skill and comined strength, either physically or/and socially, as a team.
all this requires great wisdom and experience on the part of logistics, and great skill and endurance. megaliths were clearly a part of life, as much as music was for us up till a century or so ago.
and to boot the idea of a social group that was superior in logistical and cultural force. well, over the sort of timespans we discuss here, the only qualification is continued group survival. if your clan survives a 100 000 y period there will be some development. the other thing that becomes obvious is that the megalithic builders did not survive. i cannot see farmers doing this. so it was basically gone when agriculture destroyed them, or their habitat and philosophy. very hard to establish motives and methods from someone exactly the same as you but with a completely lost psychological makeup and perception of reality/
oh... rambling

That what some think, that the H blocks could of Had Hinged joints as some think it was part of a door casing

fact they were making things in stone, means there was alot of labour invested in something whose significance we dont quite understand.

right especially when .. the site is at a level way above sea level and trees do not grow ... the the long climb and the distance to bring these stones up there ..


and your right ...

where is the progress of making improvements, you know the different versions in Puma Punku .. ?? to me that makes me think that outsider's ( some think SEA People as Ocean Travelers) from a different parts of the land Built these with INCAs used as the Laborers ... and The Inca learned from them ...

yet i dont see the basic to advancements from the Main Temples courtyards in Tiwanaku to Puma Punku

what I see..
there is a BIG HUGE Jump in Advancement in Technology in construction architecture from those sites
and seems like there is nothing in between ...

TO ME... It look as if Outsiders left their Mark , and inherited by the INCA AZTECS MAYANS


Artefacts, Atlantis and the route to the sea
www.atlantisbolivia.org...

Amazing if its accurate.. tho..

a reply to: Wolfenz

"That what some think, that the H blocks could of Had Hinged joints as some think it was part of a door casing"

ughh. they are not the same size.individually. no hinges.not a matching set. sorry. the implication is that with interior 3 planar corners is very difficult to make lacking certain tools not found in record, more pertaining to measuring and measuring angles than lego sets of gods.
there are many loopholes in the theorys but more productive to fill them, not reinvent the wheel, no?

a reply to: username74


what I see..
there is a BIG HUGE Jump in Advancement in Technology in construction architecture from those sites
and seems like there is nothing in between ...

no what we see are vast chasms of time.
wood was surely the first material and the jointing of wood was carried through to stone and this was inherited into lithic structure.
the implication is that the early builders were challenged by seismic issues long enough for it to become stylised in their work, then the skills and techniques/origins were lost and the trade was reinvented with smaller components and a glue, or stabiliser in a more stable enviroment.
all the problems of why and how are within this framework.
you need to reproduce the feat of identical construction to understand the thought process, but we are not in this position.
there are issues with tools,tool usage and logistics. and sundry material.
the construction techniques are your mystery, but dependent on this, we can only assume the motivation.

a reply to: Wolfenz

so to me, the only analogue we have, culturally, are cold war constructions and fortresses.
perhaps many can be interpereted as inverted reflections of landscape combined with events in the human world. and some had function but only elemental. eg water etc

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Wolfenz
look, as much as i would like to believe, this is not the case, these things cannot work as hinges, they are not precisely the same size! this sort of thing is important!


"like the High Tech interlocking H Blocks... explain that one ??? "
stop it.! you are not helping.
if you really believe in this, you must create a framework in which it seems logical for people to create said thing.

I didnt say this the History Channel said this LOL !! about being hinges ...

Stop what ! ??? show where there H blocks like there anywhere else in the world that is 2,000 years old .. ?

a reply to: Wolfenz

well this is the sticky bit. they are hinges in form, just they do not match each other. so its likely they are not. so they are something else.
the main thing is this site was decimated long before it was rediscovered. there is nothing to see here that is constructive to your argument. there are some very weird artifacts. the blocks meant to take gold cladding.
they are the most finely finished, i dont know how, and the grooves and holes, not sure about the interval of the hole but i can see the groove is perfect. we would use that to take a frame not sheeting. the theorys intuitive but practically it doesnt make sense. metal expands in the heat of the sun.

originally posted by: Wolfenz



the PUMA PunkU site Basicaly looks like it was Blown Apart..

What, because the Ancient Aliens TV show came up with that claim
Please defend it, I would really like to see at least another feeble easily refuted claim from you
Its your forte

And can you show me how the blocks interlink together, did you actually measure them ?

a reply to: Marduk

not puma punka, tiawanythingy i suspect was intended.

a reply to: Marduk

oh, and just to be even more helpful,
"And can you show me how the blocks interlink together, did you actually measure them ? "
second picture down
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Marduk

just shoddy workmanship eh? marduk
this "only perfect on the front" argument is something only a desk wallah could up with!

""While the front looks pretty, the back side is not so smoothly fitted"
i know that thats not intended as a critism, but its not so much a disclaimer as may be initially assumed.
if you do not taper the rear of a joint then nothing will ever fit.
i use a 1 degree angle on a circular saw, its not much but you can see it in cross section quite clearly over a 40 mm thickness.
and thats to leave space for the glue.
no joint in organic material will ever be perfect below the surface but if the faces match up the degree of precision has still been performed. regardless of this critism.
the neccesary opening at the back allows adjustment, during construction, to face of said structure i.e. angle of face, cross section.
it also allows erosion and deposition
it could be argued this method of placing requires more skill and precision than carving apparent perfect blocks""