Scientists deliver blow to Clovis myth about how people arrived in America

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport

Now if the Bible which Christians follow state the world is only 6000 yrs old...

Where in the Bible does it "state" that?

read the last page

What I can't understand is why mainstream consistently denies findings like this and their implications.Why??

and Ussher's opinion was ORTHODOX at the time...
it's considered a joke now....
times and opinions change.

originally posted by: TDawg61
What I can't understand is why mainstream consistently denies findings like this and their implications.Why??

You mean like the mainstream academics who announced this
and all the previous advances in understanding ?

a reply to: SLAYER69

There's a book you might be interested in reading that also has a theory on Europeans travelling along the edge of the ice sheets from the Spain/France areas known as the Solutreans. These Solutreans precede the Clovis peoples based on archaeological finds.

It seems that the Americas could very well have seen arrivals of various peoples coming from many different directions (both the Pacific and the Atlantic) ?



But the big question is: Who got there first ?

The book puts forward a compelling case for people from northern Spain traveling to America by boat, following the edge of a sea ice shelf that connected Europe and America during the last Ice Age, 14,000 to 25,000 years ago.

Groundbreaking discoveries from the east coast of North America are demonstrating that people who are believed to be Clovis ancestors arrived in this area no later than 18,450 years ago and possibly as early as 23,000 years ago, probably in boats from Europe. These early inhabitants made stone tools that differ in significant ways from the earliest stone tools known in Alaska. It now appears that people entering the New World arrived from more than one direction.

In “Across Atlantic Ice,” the authors trace the origins of Clovis culture from the Solutrean people, who occupied northern Spain and France more than 20,000 years ago. They believe that these people went on to populate America’s east coast, eventually spreading at least as far as Venezuela in South America.

Bradley and Stanford do not suggest that the people from Europe were the only ancestors of modern Native Americans. They argue that it is evident that early inhabitants also arrived from Asia, into Alaska, populating America’s western coast.

Across Atlantic Ice



Here's a great documentary about the Solutreans and how they may have arrived along the North and South American coastlines, well worth the 1 1/2 hour watch:



Ice Age Columbus:

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Harte

2 million years ago? What?
not even close, the oldest ancestors of the mammoth were roughly that old, but they didn't migrate until relatively recently to the america's. If they migrated here 2 million years ago.

Mammoths stem from an ancestral species called M. africanavus, the African mammoth. These mammoths lived in northern Africa and disappeared about 3 or 4 million years ago. Descendants of these mammoths moved north and eventually covered most of Eurasia. These were M. meridionalis, the “southern mammoths.”

In the early Pleistocene, about 1.8 million years ago, M. meridionalis took advantage of low sea levels (during an Ice Age) and crossed into North America via a temporary land bridge across the Bering Strait. The southern mammoth then radiated throughout North America. In the Middle Pleistocene, a new North American species evolved, the imperial mammoth, M. imperator (though some question whether M. imperator is a legitimate genus). Then, in the Late Pleistocene, the Columbian mammoth, M. columbi (also known as the Jefferson mammoth, M. jeffersoni), appeared. Its range covered the present United States and as far south as Nicaragua and Honduras.

Source

Harte

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: SLAYER69
There's a book you might be interested in reading that also has a theory on Europeans travelling along the edge of the ice sheets from the Spain/France areas known as the Solutreans. These Solutreans precede the Clovis peoples based on archaeological finds.

It's not impossible, but what evidence is available is weak. However, it has sparked a large debate within the archaeological community, once again giving lie to the whole idea of 'suppression'.

a reply to: SLAYER69


Hi Slayer what a great find


but for me I feel that I would have to go
with the Ancient Arctic Circle Connection ..

Not only just the Bering Strait ...


And for Puma Punku Tiwanaco ...
to be around at the Most 17,000 years Old ! ?

It, could very well be ... as its hard to Date Stone..
even carbon dating is hard with mutiple hand touching and messing with it
through out the millenniums

seeing there's similarity's with 11,000 year Old :: Göbekli Tepe
in art Design ( from what i see )

and I myself... Highly Doubt that Primitive Native ( INCAS )
just getting out of the Stone Age into the Bronze Age
with no Written Language except for Rope Knotting
that has Accomplished Feats ... like the Complexity of the ( LEGO like ) Stone Work !
( Referring to the H Blocks ) with out !! the Help of Some Outsider that has the advanced Knowledge

Sorry .. this does not Cut it for me ! there Must of been someone, either from the OLD World
or a High Advance Close to Civilization Type 1 ( if not more ) Race of being, that Helped ..

I have a Hard Time Grasping that the Peruvian Natives ( Incas )

Did this in Puma Punku On Their Own ..



10 Incredible Ancient Achievements that Science cannot explain
It seems that by nature we tend to discredit our ancestors for many things. We can firmly state that Ancient mankind was incredibly developed, smart and achieved things that we today cannot replicate. Proof of that are incredible lost technologies, ancient monuments that defy every explanation and knowledge about complex sciences way ahead of their time.
www.ancient-code.com...


when think about this Easter island and Göbekli Tepe

and seeing a PATTERN!! So similar






Well.. Graham Hancock tries to make a Connection with Puma Punku and Göbekli Tepe

although he's way out there... but its his Tongue and Cheek Ideal Theory's
and Beliefs.... I cant somehow refute the Similarity's..

then again Slayer MODERN HUMANS have been around 250,000 to 400,000 years
as some Scientist had claimed ... and im saying as what we are today !
not a Hominid not a Neanderthal , just plain us...

as i said before and say it again if we MODERN Human been on this Planet for 250,000+

what Has MAN been doing in 243,000 years ??

seeing evidence of Written recorded History was 8,000 years

Yet we have a Confirmed Complex Site that is 10,000 or 11,000
years old ! with some Nice Art in Göbekli Tepe that is in Turkey ???

Something is Wrong with that in my mind ..
a Large Percentage of our Ancient History is lost

a reply to: Wolfenz

hmmm. as an aside, as this thread is eating itself, your diagram of the Hs.
its been postulated thet were hinge joints, which they could be, except they are different sizes, which makes it a degree weirder for me. because the degree of precision, and proportion inplies this is intentional.
the fingers, yes, ive pointed this out myself.
theres some deep water here. its easy to draw a visual reference, but that doesnt have to be the case. the symbology represented could be similar because of inherited techniques, measuring systems or cultural factors.
it doesnt have to be a stylised representation, reproduced.
when we roll back through the generations, we begin to deal with reduced (rare) pools of humanity, and the fact they were making things in stone, means there was alot of labour invested in something whose significance we dont quite understand.
although i doubt it, and to clarify a point, all the stone remains we covet, could be replicas of stone remains, or monuments, or improvements of, and we would be none the wiser.
a copy of a thing could just be an amalgamation of what a sculptor saw in stone on his travels, or it could be direct inheritance. unless you have a copy of a thing and and the thing, or related things, then its an original.
so you could say what all these unknown sculptors have in common is a very clear recognition of the vastness of time before them and presumably to come and a very real sense of their own insignificance and a desire to thwart this fact of life. oh and massive skill and comined strength, either physically or/and socially, as a team.
all this requires great wisdom and experience on the part of logistics, and great skill and endurance. megaliths were clearly a part of life, as much as music was for us up till a century or so ago.
and to boot the idea of a social group that was superior in logistical and cultural force. well, over the sort of timespans we discuss here, the only qualification is continued group survival. if your clan survives a 100 000 y period there will be some development. the other thing that becomes obvious is that the megalithic builders did not survive. i cannot see farmers doing this. so it was basically gone when agriculture destroyed them, or their habitat and philosophy. very hard to establish motives and methods from someone exactly the same as you but with a completely lost psychological makeup and perception of reality/
oh... rambling

originally posted by: Wolfenz
a reply to: SLAYER69
And for Puma Punku Tiwanaco ...
to be around at the Most 17,000 years Old ! ?

It, could very well be ... as its hard to Date Stone..
even carbon dating is hard with mutiple hand touching and messing with it
through out the millenniums

Do you think Archaeologists are idiots?
C14 sampling at Pumapunku involved sampling from underneath stone, one of which was 130 tons.
I doubt many people touched or messed with that.

The whole site (Tiahuanaco) and surrounding area was part of the sampling. Acres of sites. The dates all correspond to the construction being done in the Common Era (though the site was first occupied - or the earliest dates found, anyway - maybe 500 years earlier IIRC.) There's not a single piece of evidence - nothing at all - to indicate such antiquity.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
Do you think Archaeologists are idiots?

Two words can sum you up: Official Story.

Are we done here?

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Wolfenz
a reply to: SLAYER69
And for Puma Punku Tiwanaco ...
to be around at the Most 17,000 years Old ! ?

It, could very well be ... as its hard to Date Stone..
even carbon dating is hard with mutiple hand touching and messing with it
through out the millenniums

Do you think Archaeologists are idiots?
C14 sampling at Pumapunku involved sampling from underneath stone, one of which was 130 tons.
I doubt many people touched or messed with that.

The whole site (Tiahuanaco) and surrounding area was part of the sampling. Acres of sites. The dates all correspond to the construction being done in the Common Era (though the site was first occupied - or the earliest dates found, anyway - maybe 500 years earlier IIRC.) There's not a single piece of evidence - nothing at all - to indicate such antiquity.

Harte

Why yes I am calling them Idiots ! how many hands that touched it before those Structures Fell ???

you really think ..... when they finally laid to rest from some catastrophic Event that these stone Structures ..
as what it Looks like ... can be carbon dated in precise accuracy... really Now ?

well just maybe they were standing Tall for thousands of years like the pyramid of Giza before they went crashing down and were buried from some cause.. you know the common era ,
and Im talking ONLY about... PUMA PUNKU not Tiwanaco ...




So of Course the carbon dating would be totally wrong ...

to bad the stones weren't
made of a material like cement and find something organic inside from the hardening process
but unfortunately they are made from hard stone , and some are made of granite ( but NOT ALL )

Acres of Sites ... from the Disaster ! carbonated showing 3 different time periods
from 2,000 to 500 year range ...

but I guess you forgot about ...a lot of stone were moved
in the mid 1800s to the 1930s and the reconstruction ...


even so if it wasn't 17,000 but the common era as you said !

Have you seen any 2,000 year old Engineered Complexed interlocking Stone
fitting like Lego's any were else in the World ! I bet NOT!

and I Mean Like this!!!



as like they were manufactured in a assembly process


Please show me any were else in the Old World
that these Structured made of Stone look like

Not in Egypt, Not in Rome, not in Iraq or Iran .... NADA


and you Believe INCAS did this ??

in a High Altitude where Trees Barely Grow...

but let not think about Göbekli Tepe as it 11,000 years old ...

cant refute that as it was deliberately buried for some reason ...
so the carbon dating would be accurate... right... right
yet there is similarity's of Göbekli Tepe and Puma Punku and Easter Island in art Design !

long Stretch of 6,000 years difference HUH ...

There's not a single piece of evidence - nothing at all - to indicate such antiquity.

and there wont be unless they find find anything organic human to animal remains in Puma Punku
in that time period but have they found any Human Remains at the Site ???

ok

Age[edit] Determining the age of the Pumapunku complex has been a focus of researchers since the discovery of the Tiwanaku site. As noted by Andean specialist, Binghamton University Anthropology professor W. H. Isbell,[2] a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich[3] from organic material from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku to 536–600 AD (1510 ±25 B.P. C14, calibrated date). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 536–600 AD. The excavation trenches of Vranich show that the clay, sand, and gravel fill of the Pumapunku complex lie directly on the sterile middle Pleistocene sediments. These excavation trenches also demonstrated the lack of any pre-Andean Middle Horizon cultural deposits within the area of the Tiwanaku Site adjacent to the Pumapunku complex.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...


Now this is funny !!

a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich[3] from organic material from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku to 536–600 AD (1510 ±25 B.P. C14, calibrated date).

Oldest Layer !

ok that if it was originally sitting standing there in the first place ,
and not a catastrophic even that was taken place ... and scattered all the Structured stone all over the place!
like it was some explosion that Happened ... throwing rock of 130 tons wasn't no earth quake! i would assume !!

just saying most of the structured building material stone blocks are buried or partially buried like it was silt!
a earth moving event

well just like Easter island , Göbekli Tepe and the Giza Pyramids ,

which were intentional of being buried except for the Pyramids of Giza ..

ALL things considered, from Earth to Sky, it's hard to believe we are speaking of human civilization in terms of 10s of thousands of years.

If the Common Era is all we have to regard in terms of advanced civilizations, we are all indeed still "primitives".

a reply to: FlyingFox

right and

we a suppose to be on this planet for only 250,000+ and to other scientist 400,000 years ??


Im talking about MODERN MAN ...

Seems to me its kinda Odd we just Started to Advance just 10,000 to 30,000 years ago


For How Long Have We Been Human?
September 13, 201210:03 AM ET
www.npr.org...





Well According to NPR.

200,000 years ago: First modern humans, Homo sapiens

30,000: Cave paintings and rock paintings begin to emerge on multiple continents

Around 12,000: Onset of agriculture and human settlements. Up until this period, all human groups lived by hunting and gathering. (This transition was neither linear nor simple.)

it took 170,000 years for Humans to Develop Art!! ???

then 188,000 years to developed Agriculture and human settlements ! ??



So about 170,000 years , Our Soulless mindless ,
Selves ... Just Scavenged for left overs , ate of trees ( fruit ) and ran with animal packs , wore animals skins
thew rocks and sticks at pray .. and played with neanderthals !
and breed like Bunny's !


and Then...

got Free will , critical thinking...curiosity, problem solving minds!


ANU - Enki and Enill must made a game change !

opps dont forget Prometheus ! Fire Fire Tree Chain Vulture Liver ( repeat )
He died for our Fire ! and Knowledge! Jesus just died for our Sins !


isnt there some tribes in South America still in the Stone age ?

and what are we to them ?

www.youtube.com...


www.youtube.com...


www.youtube.com...


and we didn't have any Advanced Civilization at all within 100,000 years ?
of Modern Man Existence of some kind ??? and we were no better then the Neanderthals ?

originally posted by: Harte
The dates all correspond to the construction being done in the Common Era (though the site was first occupied - or the earliest dates found, anyway - maybe 500 years earlier IIRC.) There's not a single piece of evidence - nothing at all - to indicate such antiquity.

Harte

Do you happen to have those dates available, I think when presented the hundreds of corroborating dates shown together are overwhelming to all but the totally credulous...

a reply to: Wolfenz

Yeah, I think most people would probably prefer to read Graham Hancock's theories in his books rather than badly regurgitated ad nauseum by you thanks

As for "and you Believe INCAS did this ??"
Well it is the Incas who are portrayed in most of the artwork at those sites, didn't you notice that ?
And all the carbon dates come back from the Inca period of Habitation, from like, 500 years before when there was just a village there.

The real glory of the area is the Norte Chico civilisation, which dates back to 4000BCE at Aspero
But I guess you haven't heard of that because it doesn't appear in pseudohistory books much

btw, claiming a culture wasn't capable of something which all the evidence says they did is cultural racism
Are you voting Trump too ?

so can we try to define what we all mean by "advanced" and "civilization"?
every thread, its the same.
do you mean technological infrastructure and air travel or something else.
since we are existant within a civilisation our reflections on this are subjective/objective
its like trying to examine the nature of consciousness or sentinence
its difficult to look without imposing your view of reality/morality on their reality/social infrastructure
its not enough to draw such vast and leading comparisons on rare examples of technological achievement with out divining motive and purpose.
time scatters and erases the trail. it allows variety hence viability in development
so what is advanced civilisation?
without quoting s f writers.
what does civilisation mean to an individual on a day to day basis? for an individual who isnt an author or an archeaologist

originally posted by: TDawg61
What I can't understand is why mainstream consistently denies findings like this and their implications.Why??

Because mainstream isn't interested in reading rather dull scientific reports - and academic conferences are far less exciting than hockey matches.

Humans would rather watch hockey and tv shows than take courses on archaeology or read the journals (which, truth to tell, can get mind-numbingly dull.)

I would begin to define advanced civilization as:

read/write

laws/standards/records

knowledge/interaction with other civilizations

medical knowledge/practice

large scale economy

craft specialization

....and the biggie:

monumental architecture