Roswell: The lies just keep on coming.

a reply to: fleabit

That's another thing I remember from years ago. I accused "The Shrike" of being "Skeptical Ed" and a mod here said I was barking up the wrong tree. Thanks for the confirmation.

I was expecting a load of abuse in an attempt to "shoot me down in flames" and silence me there. There is still a bit of fairness on ATS after all.

a reply to: mindrape

Off topic: Are you Mark Pilkington?

Hi mindrape. No I am not Mark Pilkington.

Although Karl 12 could be Karl Pilkington

a reply to: klassless

Yes they do. Time for them to come clean with us and stop the charade.

a reply to: mirageman
Who says Brits can't deny ignorance?

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: mindrape

Off topic: Are you Mark Pilkington?

Hi mindrape. No I am not Mark Pilkington.

Although Karl 12 could be Karl Pilkington

Ha no mate I'm not Mark Pilkington either.

a reply to: klassless

I hate to burst your bubble all these years later, but there is no way that Rawin target the press was shown in 2003 was from New Mexico or even 1947 for that matter.

Btw, that was televised at the time. So maybe you could point yourself and Lou out to us?

klassless said...



When the truth is elusive to some, as in this case, one has to put 2 and 2 to get 4. By the beginning of July Kenneth Arnold's sighting, as erroneously reported in the press, had taken hold so it wasn't unreasonable to think that rumors of a crashed disk could override the truth which, eventually, it didn't and that's why Roswell was not heard from again. It could have been General Blanchard's zeal to be the first to claim a crashed disk that got the better of him. But what did Arnold really see?

The military had been well aware of a phenomena for several years at that point and had been using the term "disks" for some time well before Arnold's sighting. So at that time some press with Military sources used the term, it stuck because it was already currently in use by the Military.

Surely any actual researcher would know this as oppesed to presenting the old "Ken Arnold didn't see a saucer" angle.

originally posted by: lost_shaman

The military had been well aware of a phenomena for several years at that point and had been using the term "disks" for some time well before Arnold's sighting. So at that time some press with Military sources used the term, it stuck because it was already currently in use by the Military.

Surely any actual researcher would know this as oppesed to presenting the old "Ken Arnold didn't see a saucer" angle.

Whether any researcher actually "knows" what you are asserting depends on whether we have a number of reputable researchers as sources for the US military using the terms "disks" before Roswell.

Also what would be "some time well before Arnold's sighting"?

There is some evidence I found that supports sightings in early Spring of 1947. A matter of months.

But the general consensus is that :

Beginning in the latter part of June, people in widely separated places a nd from all walks of life began to report having seen shining, high-speed, strangely maneuvering objects in the sky. In most of these reports the objects were described as round or disc-shaped. For more than a week sightings were made in continuously increasing numbers.

On July 4th the reports rose sharply and spontaneously, and for five days there was scarcely any part of the United States that had not been visited by these strangely elusive aerial objects. Reports came from many points in Canada as well[

See : nicap.org...

a reply to: mirageman

You can see the term "discs" or "disks" originates in news reports immediately following Kenneth Arnold's sighting that feature Gen. Ramey and or Col. Kalberer.

Clearly the term was fed to the press by them, it was not used by Kenneth Arnold.

a reply to: mirageman

You said... "A matter of months."

Yes. Sure. That was the timeframe. Some (in the Military) were following the phenomena (ghost rockets) in Europe (foo fighters) before that and realized in the fall of 46 and spring of 47 that the phenomena had migrated here to the America's.

They couldn't say the Ghost rockets were here. The phenomena had to have a new name. Even if unofficial, that was apparently "dics" or "disks".

You will also note that this is what almost all military documents from the summer of 47 use. That can only be explained by an ingrained organizational preference for that term and associated with that phenomena.

a reply to: mirageman

You mentioned that NICAP statement that said reports increased July 4th "spontaneously" and continued for 5 days.

I've suggested strongly that this was a concerted 'dis-info' campaign that targeted the Press to embarrass them to the point that they wouldn't cover the "sightings" anymore.

The Press did actually stop reporting the phenomena for almost a year while the Air Force actively continued researching the phenomena in secret.

originally posted by: lost_shaman
a reply to: mirageman

You can see the term "discs" or "disks" originates in news reports immediately following Kenneth Arnold's sighting that feature Gen. Ramey and or Col. Kalberer.

Clearly the term was fed to the press by them, it was not used by Kenneth Arnold.

OK it really isn't worth dwelling on a minor point about the use of the term flying disk. Personally I don't think Roswell is the great alien crash it has been made out to be. However there were certainly some interesting things going on in and around the same timeframe.



The above graph (taken from the NICAP file by Ted Bloecher) illustrates how disk sightings peaked in early July 1947.

So it may be possible to study what was going on, just before and just after Roswell, based on those reports. It may lead nowhere but it also might just reveal another piece of the jigsaw.

Roswell was the great alien crash we have all heard about.
Even if you knew nothing about it you could tell just by the lies the military has told:
Normal Weather Balloon (but we will kill you if you have a piece of it)
Secret Weather Balloon (whose materials were not secret at all)
Crash Test Dummies (who did not even exist at the time)

a reply to: mirageman

I agree that Roswell wasn't about crashed Aliens. However im also pretty sure it had nothing to do with MOGUL either.

My hypothesis is that the "Roswell" events were a Military disinformation campaign directed towards the national Press designed to basically humiliate the press to stop covering the sightings.

The Military was ramping up the investigation of the phenomena at that time and needed the Press to stop reporting sightings so the phenomena could be investigated secretly (which is what happened).

Interestingly enough the gragh you posted actually shows just how quickly Press reports both ramped up, and then dropped off immediately following the Roswell events.

a reply to: mirageman
The above graph (taken from the NICAP file by Ted Bloecher) illustrates how disk sightings peaked in early July 1947.

I think many times this type of thing is psychological, something called priming. A big story is carried across the country about a fleet of UFOs seen by Kenneth Arnold and all of a sudden everyone begins to see UFOs. Once it fades so do the sightings. I don't think Roswell has any connection to the rise in UFO sightings.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect
Roswell was the great alien crash we have all heard about.
Even if you knew nothing about it you could tell just by the lies the military has told:
Normal Weather Balloon (but we will kill you if you have a piece of it)
Secret Weather Balloon (whose materials were not secret at all)
Crash Test Dummies (who did not even exist at the time)

Why is this so difficult to understand? What was found was unlike any "weather balloon" ever found in the area. Because of the unusual size of the debris field and because what was found was not intact but broken and scattered around, they weren't completely sure of what it was. Until they could have official confirmation, they didn't know. Like I said above, they could have found a secret soviet spy balloon for all they knew. These were different times and a different mentality. Paranoia would have been high. When weather officer Irving Newton (the only weather forecaster on duty) explained it was pieces of a RAWIN:

...normally launched by a special crew and followed by a ground radar unit. They provided a higher altitude winds aloft. We did not use them at Fort Worth.

These were used mostly on special projects and overseas.

Source from Irving Newton's statement.
Note he was the only person able to officially identify what this was from first-hand experience and this wasn't normally seen in the area. Jesse Marcel's experience with weather balloons was probably limited to the one balloon, one target found across the country by farmers. This was not that.


As far as the crash test dummies... this is something the Air Force was pressured into giving a response to. They didn't say the "alien bodies" were actually crash test dummies. They said it was a combination of false memories from later dates.
The alien bodies part of this story should be skipped over and ignored anyway. It makes a mockery of an already questionable case.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: klassless

Yes they do. Time for them to come clean with us and stop the charade.

Please explain to what you are commenting on. Include whatever I said that you disagree with. I'm sure that we can reach a middle ground.

originally posted by: lost_shaman
a reply to: klassless

I hate to burst your bubble all these years later, but there is no way that Rawin target the press was shown in 2003 was from New Mexico or even 1947 for that matter.

I don't know what you are referring to so please elucidate us.

Btw, that was televised at the time. So maybe you could point yourself and Lou out to us?

If you can provide more information perhaps it can be found at YouTube. I'm always open to new information.

originally posted by: lost_shaman
a reply to: mirageman

You said... "A matter of months."

Yes. Sure. That was the timeframe. Some (in the Military) were following the phenomena (ghost rockets) in Europe (foo fighters) before that and realized in the fall of 46 and spring of 47 that the phenomena had migrated here to the America's.

They couldn't say the Ghost rockets were here. The phenomena had to have a new name. Even if unofficial, that was apparently "dics" or "disks".

You will also note that this is what almost all military documents from the summer of 47 use. That can only be explained by an ingrained organizational preference for that term and associated with that phenomena.

We are not supposed to be using "discs" or "disks". We are supposed to be calling them not "flying saucers" but "flying rocks"! I have never seen anyone saying that they skipped saucers across the water surface nor have I ever skipped saucers across water. But I have spent a lot of time walking near the water's edge looking for flat rocks that make skipping across the water worth the search.

Isn't it curious that the aerial phenomena that was reported conformed to a journalist's error since Arnold did not call the objects he claimed he saw "flying saucers", "flying discs", or "flying disks"? His original sketch resembled Horten Brothers' craft.

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
Roswell was the great alien crash we have all heard about.
Even if you knew nothing about it you could tell just by the lies the military has told:
Normal Weather Balloon (but we will kill you if you have a piece of it)
Secret Weather Balloon (whose materials were not secret at all)
Crash Test Dummies (who did not even exist at the time)

Totally agree, the military sunk their own ship before it's christening with the mogul balloon story. A balloon that required a big cargo plane and lots of trucks to carry away that pile of sticks and foil shown in the news story with the bewildered intelligence officer holding a few pieces in his hand..

Most hilarious is that people are as gullible as they are, and unable to think for themselves to believe a lie like that.

a reply to: klassless

Well I was hoping you would say something to support your claims.