Roswell: The lies just keep on coming.

I'll start off with the usual caveat. I searched ATS to see if anyone posted something about Roswell's 69th "anniversary" and nothing came up. So here wee go.

I'm not a Roswell enthusiast, at least about accepting that a UFO crashed near the city, nor about accepting crash "victims". I stick to the original reports which really was not reported worldwide. I did a search for a THE NEW YORK TIMES article and found nothing. Nada. Zip. Folks, if it isn't in THE TIMES, it didn't happen "worldwide". I know upfront that the Roswell UFO crash-believing members are going to come out of the woodwork and unmercifully launch an attack on me for committing heresy. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ..." I'm not a believer and I accept only the known facts and, I handled some of the actual debris in Washington, DC. Nothing that was not made by humans. Watch as the more knowingly members produce all kinds of bs documents and theories. Don't crucify me, I'm only the messenger.

A few minutes ago I Googled "latest ufo news" and clicked on a Huffington Post link and saw nothing new but when I scrolled down I saw:
New Mexico Town Still Celebrates Legendary UFO Crash Tale, 69 Years On
This weekend’s Roswell festival marks the anniversary, more or less, of an enduring mystery.
07/01/2016 08:33 pm ET | Updated Jul 04, 2016
Lee Speigel
www.huffingtonpost.com...

It was the usual cock-and-bull promotion article by Lee Speigel who was instrumental in my attending the UN UFO day back in 1978. Lee is a believer and he has learned that the truth is not as profitable as a (GIANT!) white lie.

The article includes these lies, underlined:

We have a lot of tie-in with this whole Roswell incident and we wanted to help make it a more serious exploration of the UFO event as kind of a springboard for that topic,” said the newspaper’s publisher, Barbara Beck, whose family has owned the Roswell Daily Record since 1935.

“There’s only so much you can talk about the Roswell incident, because most of the people who were associated with it are dead and we really don’t know what happened,” Beck, pictured below with this reporter, told The Huffington Post.

Jesse Marcel is quoted:

Marcel said that, after gathering the wreckage, he was told by Gen. Roger Ramey at Carswell Air Force Base in Forth Worth, Texas, “‘Don’t open your mouth to the press. Put some stuff on the floor and let them take a picture of it.’ But I was careful not to put out anything with detail on it. So, they took pictures, and one picture appeared in the papers.”

Here is that photo. At Google Images you can see at least 5 photos of the photo session in Marcel's office(?).



The article also includes a headstone, oops, a marker to commemorate the event. The marker also contains lies, natch.


"IN JULY IN THE YEAR OF 1947 A CRAFT OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN SPREAD DEBRIS OVER THIS SITE. WITNESSES WOULD REPORT MATERIALS OF AN UNEARTHLY NATURE...IN SEPTEMBER OF THE YEAR 2002 THE SCI FI CHANNEL BROUGHT SCIENTISTS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO TO SEARCH THIS GROOUND FOR EVIDENCE OF THAT FATEFUL NIGHT...BE IT OBSERVED THAT WHATEVER THE TRUE NATURE OF WHAT HAS RESPECTFULLY BECOME KNOWN AS THE ROSWELL INCIDENT, HUMANKIND HAS BEEN FOREVER DRAWN TO THE STARS. DEDICATED JULY 5, 2OO3"

Roswell's coffers are continuously fattened and the last thing that the town fathers want is to deplete their yearly fortune by telling the truth to those who attend like zombies who are either too young or not interested in learning the truth. Folks, fantasy is profitable, ask Hollywood.

(Wikipedia: The sequence of events was triggered by the crash of a Project Mogul balloon near Roswell.[1] On July 8, 1947, the Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) public information officer Walter Haut, issued a press release stating that personnel from the field's 509th Operations Group had recovered a "flying disc", which had crashed on a ranch near Roswell.

The military decided to conceal the true purpose of the crashed device – nuclear test monitoring – and instead inform the public that the crash was of a weather balloon.[2] Later that day, the press reported that Commanding General of the Eighth Air Force Roger Ramey had stated that a weather balloon was recovered by the RAAF personnel. A press conference was held, featuring debris (foil, rubber and wood) said to be from the crashed object, which matched the weather balloon description. Historian Robert Goldberg wrote that the intended effect was achieved: "the story died the next day".[4]

Subsequently the incident faded from the attention of UFO enthusiasts for more than 30 years.[5]
Huffington Post reporter Lee Speigel with Roswell Daily Record publisher Barbara Beck at the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell, NM.)

(Wikipedia: As described in the July 9, 1947 edition of the Roswell Daily Record,
The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.[11])

(Wikipedia: Friedman's initial work
In 1978, nuclear physicist and author Stanton T. Friedman interviewed Jesse Marcel, the only person known to have accompanied the Roswell debris from where it was recovered to Fort Worth where reporters saw material which was claimed to be part of the recovered object. The accounts given by Friedman and others in the following years elevated Roswell from a forgotten incident to perhaps the most famous UFO case of all time.[3]

Books
The Roswell Incident (1980)
The first conspiracy book about Roswell was The Roswell Incident (1980) by Charles Berlitz and William Moore, authors who had previously written popular books on the Philadelphia Experiment and on the Bermuda Triangle.[2]

Historian Kathy Olmsted writes that the material in this book has come to be known as "version 1" of the Roswell myth. Berlitz and Moore's narrative holds that an alien craft was flying over the New Mexico desert observing US nuclear weapons activity, but crashed after being hit by lightning, killing the aliens on board; a government cover-up duly followed.[2]

The authors claimed to have interviewed over ninety witnesses. Though he was uncredited, Friedman carried out some research for the book.[18] The Roswell Incident featured accounts of debris described by Marcel as "nothing made on this earth."[19])

a reply to: klassless


I'm sure that you are versed enough on UFO lore that you know that you can't prove a negative. Congratulations for working overtime to prove what? That UFOs don't exist or that the crash or crashes did not exactly happen as some have reported? What part of the Roswell story can you totally disprove from research that you have done yourself? Nada!


As a ATSer, you certainly know that the bloom if off of UFO sighting reports along with videos and still photos of UFOs. Too much can be and is faked by various people (and probably agencies) for most of any of us believer or denier to pay much attention to that aspect of the phenomena. What has happened in place of those "sighting" reports and images is constant threads that go beyond that physical side of UFOs to talk in terms of ETs (regardless of how they may get here or how far away they may exist).

A whole new dynamic is taking place as the public and especially, the reluctant sciences across the board are starting to get serious about the prospect of other life in the Universe. UFOs, and Roswell have been the springboard for a new era of fantastic concepts that were thought impossible only a few decades ago. The resent discussions by SCIENTISTS of a Dyson Sphere around a distant star is an excellent example of the changing times.

I'm old enough (78) that I've seen the whole show (and have been a part of it). The world in changing in front of your eyes and you want to lambast Roswell's celebration and throw jabs at the UFO community? Why?

Why not ask your government why it has NEVER done an honest and through public investigation of the UFO phenomena? If anybody should draw your ire, it should be the active denials of the US government from day one of the coming of the saucers. Why is that the honest and true situation? Crash at Roswell or not, fellow, the ETs are here.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: klassless


I'm sure that you are versed enough on UFO lore that you know that you can't prove a negative. Congratulations for working overtime to prove what? That UFOs don't exist or that the crash or crashes did not exactly happen as some have reported? What part of the Roswell story can you totally disprove from research that you have done yourself? Nada!


As a ATSer, you certainly know that the bloom if off of UFO sighting reports along with videos and still photos of UFOs. Too much can be and is faked by various people (and probably agencies) for most of any of us believer or denier to pay much attention to that aspect of the phenomena. What has happened in place of those "sighting" reports and images is constant threads that go beyond that physical side of UFOs to talk in terms of ETs (regardless of how they may get here or how far away they may exist).

A whole new dynamic is taking place as the public and especially, the reluctant sciences across the board are starting to get serious about the prospect of other life in the Universe. UFOs, and Roswell have been the springboard for a new era of fantastic concepts that were thought impossible only a few decades ago. The resent discussions by SCIENTISTS of a Dyson Sphere around a distant star is an excellent example of the changing times.

I'm old enough (78) that I've seen the whole show (and have been a part of it). The world in changing in front of your eyes and you want to lambast Roswell's celebration and throw jabs at the UFO community? Why?

Why not ask your government why it has NEVER done an honest and through public investigation of the UFO phenomena? If anybody should draw your ire, it should be the active denials of the US government from day one of the coming of the saucers. Why is that the honest and true situation? Crash at Roswell or not, fellow, the ETs are here.

Pics or it did happen
There should if this was a controlled experiment that failed be some weather related or aviation data at least letting other aviation craft know to avoid experiment area. If there is not... Why?

You lost me when you started claiming you actually handled the debris yourself.

My father retired from the USAF as a Lt. Colonel in 1965. He joined the Army Air Corps in 1940 and flew bombing missions over Germany during WWII. As a young teen back in the early 70's, I became interested in UFO's after viewing a strange, silent, unidentified craft hovering in the night sky behind my house. I remember waking my father up from a sound sleep and having him come to my window to look at the object. He had a startled look on his face and then told me it was just a helicopter and for me to go back to sleep. My sister and I were both born on Air Force bases back in the 60's and as a young boy I was very interested in airplanes, especially jet fighters. There was no way this craft was either an airplane or a helicopter. It was roughly a mile away from my window and was at first hovering, then it moved slowly above the distant treeline before rapidly ascending straight up and disappearing into the starlit night sky. It was completely silent and had the typical "saucer" shape and glowed in an olive green light with a reddish/orange hued bottom. There were no flashing lights on the craft, which ruled out it being an airplane or helicopter, yet my father claimed it was one. Over the years I tried hard to get my father to discuss the Roswell event, but he would never admit it was an actual crash of an extraterrestrial craft. He would just say it was a story that the media made up to explain away a crash of a "military" object. He never felt comfortable talking about "UFO's" with me and thought I was foolish in believing in them. Well, needless to say, I'm still interested in the UFO phenomenon. I believe these are three very important video clips concerning the Roswell event. Others may disagree, but I believe that these clips provide strong circumstantial evidence proving that the object that crashed at Roswell was no weather balloon or "military" object like my late father claimed.

Star for you! There are deniers, there are 'believers' and then there are the few that KNOW. Apparently you and I fit in the latter category. Cheers my friend!

a reply to: shawmanfromny

I too had a relative that was "uncomfortable" talking about UFO's- he was an engineer on a well-known early warning aircraft made by Boeing. He had no problem admitting that there were "flying saucers" and other types of "UFO's", but stopped short of stating that they were extraterrestrial in origin. In fact, he tried to discourage my interest in something that he was certain was "demonic" in origin. Unfortunately, this only fueled my curiosity and here I am today still baffled.

originally posted by: 191stMIDET
Star for you! There are deniers, there are 'believers' and then there are the few that KNOW. Apparently you and I fit in the latter category. Cheers my friend!

I promise,
Y'all don't know.

originally posted by: shawmanfromny
My father retired from the USAF as a Lt. Colonel in 1965. He joined the Army Air Corps in 1940 and flew bombing missions over Germany during WWII. As a young teen back in the early 70's, I became interested in UFO's after viewing a strange, silent, unidentified craft hovering in the night sky behind my house.

I remember waking my father up from a sound sleep and having him come to my window to look at the object. He had a startled look on his face and then told me it was just a helicopter and for me to go back to sleep. My sister and I were both born on Air Force bases back in the 60's and as a young boy I was very interested in airplanes, especially jet fighters. There was no way this craft was either an airplane or a helicopter. It was roughly a mile away from my window and was at first hovering, then it moved slowly above the distant treeline before rapidly ascending straight up and disappearing into the starlit night sky.

It was completely silent and had the typical "saucer" shape and glowed in an olive green light with a reddish/orange hued bottom. There were no flashing lights on the craft, which ruled out it being an airplane or helicopter, yet my father claimed it was one.

Over the years I tried hard to get my father to discuss the Roswell event, but he would never admit it was an actual crash of an extraterrestrial craft. He would just say it was a story that the media made up to explain away a crash of a "military" object. He never felt comfortable talking about "UFO's" with me and thought I was foolish in believing in them. Well, needless to say, I'm still interested in the UFO phenomenon.

I believe these are three very important video clips concerning the Roswell event. Others may disagree, but I believe that these clips provide strong circumstantial evidence proving that the object that crashed at Roswell was no weather balloon or "military" object like my late father claimed.

a reply to: klassless

I did say the naysayers and the insulters were gonna come out of the woodwork, it's a given.

Aliensun doesn't know what he's talking about
Alien Abduct just copied and pasted Aliensun's reply proving he doesn't have a mind of his own, let's others talk for him
shawmanfromny - Kevin Randle (a believer), Jesse Marcel, The Ramey Memo. Those videos show questionable people who are not interested in the truth, age deteriorated their brain, and no one can really read the contents of the Ramey memo, just wishful thinking and ...

For the record since I'm not known: I'm a skeptic and debunker, not shy about. I accept the reality of UFOs having a multitude of quality daylight sightings and videotaping one. I don't accept tales of ETs/aliens, no evidence.

I've read just about every book on UFOs and associated phenomena. I was co-author of 2 UFO magazines, no longer published. Actress Cindy Williams is seen holding one in the movie "UFOria".

I never accepted tales of UFO crashes especially near Roswell. For me, everything about Roswell and the participants were ingeniously done by Karl T. Pflock in his highly-praised book, "ROSWELL - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe", and also by the book by other K, Karl K. Korff.

In the 1980s while living in L.A. Bill Moore delivered a book to my door. He could have mailed it. As he was standing at the door I got the impression he was scouting me.

Korff: Indeed, both Friedman and Moore, around the time of the initial publication of The Roswell Incident, boasted that they had interviewed more than “ninety witnesses.”

No popular author could endanger his reputation and bank account by coming anywhere near the truth.

I don't have an ax to grind except when it comes to the never-ending Roswell bs.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
Pics or it did happen

There should if this was a controlled experiment that failed be some weather related or aviation data at least letting other aviation craft know to avoid experiment area. If there is not... Why?

No pics. Read the original newspaper accounts, as good as it gets. It was a secret military project at trying to stay ahead of the Russians. Remember, cold war.

originally posted by: Puppylove
You lost me when you started claiming you actually handled the debris yourself.

If you had phrased your reply in an intelligent manner, asking for details, I would have provided them.

a reply to: klassless

Why should I believe your claim anymore than someone claiming they talked to a zeta reticulan?

You have no way of proving personal contact with the debris, I just have to take your word for it that you, a random forum goer, happen to have a personal connection to one of the most controversial and classified events in U.S History.

Occam's Razor dictates you're most likely as connected to what happened at Rosswell as I am. Not at all.

If you're really a debunker as you say, then you'd understand why I'm not gonna take you at your word that you've been in contact with the debris, it's too damn unlikely and more likely you're making it up to ad weight to your claim.

You're no different than a random abductee in my eyes. In both cases the claim is extraordinary and I'm stuck taking your word on it.

You just want to add weight to your claims same as anyone on the other side of the aisle claiming they were there and saw bodies.

Actually no, in many ways your claim is less than that of an abductee, there's is no risk for you, whereas many abductees become pariahs and laughingstocks in their own communities if they out themselves. Many abductees out themselves while seeking psychological help because of suffering supposed PTSD like symptoms for the events they claim they suffered. Many's lives are turned upside down by what they claim they've experienced. In a sense that adds weight to their claims. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain by it.

Actually you know what, I'll bite. I'll ask you for the same thing you debunkers ask every time someone on the other side makes an extraordinary claim.

Prove it. Prove that you had personal contact with the debris from the Roswell crash. If you cannot provide it, then it did not happen, as it's an extraordinary claim and we only have your word that it happened. Remember eyewitness testimonies are meaningless according to you guys.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: klassless


I'm sure that you are versed enough on UFO lore that you know that you can't prove a negative. Congratulations for working overtime to prove what? That UFOs don't exist or that the crash or crashes did not exactly happen as some have reported? What part of the Roswell story can you totally disprove from research that you have done yourself? Nada!
The Govt understands the spiritual aspect of this, and that's why you see the Vatican in the picture so often. It ties into EVERYTHING, and if you understand matter I literally mean ties into. Do not be deceived, they are raising hell and the elitists know it. I believe you could look at Earth as a soul farm. What else do we have of interest that would not be easily available elsewhere to advanced travelers? Maybe our lack of respect for life and matter would also be of interest or concern...

As a ATSer, you certainly know that the bloom if off of UFO sighting reports along with videos and still photos of UFOs. Too much can be and is faked by various people (and probably agencies) for most of any of us believer or denier to pay much attention to that aspect of the phenomena. What has happened in place of those "sighting" reports and images is constant threads that go beyond that physical side of UFOs to talk in terms of ETs (regardless of how they may get here or how far away they may exist).

A whole new dynamic is taking place as the public and especially, the reluctant sciences across the board are starting to get serious about the prospect of other life in the Universe. UFOs, and Roswell have been the springboard for a new era of fantastic concepts that were thought impossible only a few decades ago. The resent discussions by SCIENTISTS of a Dyson Sphere around a distant star is an excellent example of the changing times.

I'm old enough (78) that I've seen the whole show (and have been a part of it). The world in changing in front of your eyes and you want to lambast Roswell's celebration and throw jabs at the UFO community? Why?

Why not ask your government why it has NEVER done an honest and through public investigation of the UFO phenomena? If anybody should draw your ire, it should be the active denials of the US government from day one of the coming of the saucers. Why is that the honest and true situation? Crash at Roswell or not, fellow, the ETs are here.

a reply to: klassless

Sorry why don't you try posting links to the original articles, because I HAVE read them and they don't indicate what you'd have everyone believe...

Jaden

a reply to: klassless

While you readily admit to being a UFO debunker, it still doesn't excuse how you use the standard debunker mantra of grabbing any opportunity to ridicule or demean the integrity of another person -- who you may or may not personally be acquainted with.

You refer to a Huffington Post story as "the usual cock-and-bull promotion article by Lee Speigel who was instrumental in my attending the UN UFO day back in 1978. Lee is a believer and he has learned that the truth is not as profitable as a (GIANT!) white lie."

For general readers, those were two quite loaded sentences.

First, you imply that Speigel normally writes "cock-and-bull promotion articles." Really? Is that true? I've read his pieces and don't get the impression he's that kind of writer. Yet, you don't hesitate to debunk what he writes. And I'll bet readers would like to know how, exactly, was Speigel instrumental in your showing up at the UN all those years ago. It would be helpful to all of us here to know more about that day and to get your thoughts about what happened.

Then, you say Speigel is a believer...well, a believer in what? What are you claiming he's a believer of? If you know, please share it with us so we can understand. And when you say he's learned the truth is not as profitable as a GIANT white lie, what does that mean? Please inform us as to what giant white lie Speigel has told, or is currently telling.

It's one thing to be a skeptic or debunker and feel like it's OK to push your opinions out there. But when you don't further explain what you mean, it almost sounds as though your statements stem from a totally uninformed point of view. It's as if you haven't actually done any research on the people (in this case, Speigel) who you attempt to bring to their knees, all in the name of keeping true to that standard debunker's mantra I mentioned earlier.

Please give us more info. Don't just throw assumptions and/or accusations around if you don't know for sure that they're well founded.

a reply to: klassless

Just a couple of nights ago I listened to a podcast that touched on this very issue. The fellows who host the show do a pretty good job of viewing both sides of the UFO coin. They may not have as much experience or knowledge as some (like yourself) with this topic, but they seem to come to a similar conclusion that the entire Roswell "story" is disinformation by the US Military.

Here is a link to the podcast for those who might be interested: Magical Mystery Media Podcast #1 Nazis, Man-Made UFOs, and Mirage Men

Intro to the podcast:

What if someone told you that most – maybe all – of the biggest UFO stories of the last few decades were carefully crafted lies? And what if that same someone told you that those lies were a deliberately manufactured disinformation campaign directed by elements within the government to steer you away from the truth: the UFOs are us. Would you believe it? If you’ve been a follower of the UFO phenomenon for any length of time, you’d probably answer that with a dogmatic cry of: No Way! However, if you’re being honest with yourself, then you’ll probably come to the uncomfortable realization that much of what you’ve been told is bull#. Pissed off? You should be. Especially if you’ve been the target of such a campaign (paging Paul Bennewitz), and you’ve dedicated your whole life trying to uncover the truth. Or whatever that is.

I have listened to most of the Podcast UFO & Open Mind UFO Radio episodes, but have found them to be lacking in taking a skeptical view... the guys on Magical Media don't have this problem and I recommend their other episodes (not all UFO related) as well.

As for my own view- the more I learn the less I believe this was an event that included "actual extraterrestrial anythings". The sequence and timing of multiple UFO related events and their context with other historical occurrences leads me to believe that this was all propaganda and disinformation designed to hide HUMAN MILITARY TECHNOLOGY. I say this with sadness, because I wanted to continue believing in J-Rod, the Flux-Liner, Memory Metal, etc.

I do not discount the possibility of alien visitation either past or present, but I find it difficult to believe that they would come all this way through the most hazardous of conditions we know of, only to crash in the desert next to a military base hosting the tip-top most TOP SECRET stuff ever thunk up.

Wouldn't they (the aliens) have considered this possibility and ensured that their craft was destroyed or was Gary Powers their pilot? (Not sure if Bridge of Spies accurately portrayed the U-2 incident, but what the heck).

I'm not a believer and I accept only the known facts and, I handled some of the actual debris in Washington, DC.

what the hell is wrong with you? first you atack my thread about the humanoids then you claim that hoaxland is telling the truth and then you claim you handled roswell debris?
what

you are weird even for ats standards

edit on 11-8-2016 by humanoidlord because: (no reason given)

a reply to: humanoidlord

heres what i said above:what the hell is wrong with you? first you atack my thread about the humanoids then you claim that hoaxland is telling the truth and then you claim you handled roswell debris?
what
you are weird even for ats standards