Voter ID scrapped in NC.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

It really doesn't. It's highly illegal, moderately risky, carries severe penalties, and almost completely pointless. 100 or even 1000 people can vote twice in a local election and it still only shifts the voting pool by 1%. That's not enough to change the outcome in anything other than the closest of races. If you're caught doing this, you can expect to spend the rest of your life in prison, and for you/your family to be hit with severe fines.

If you want to cheat in an election, this is not the way to do it. The attention you attract to yourself trying to recruit people to do this will ruin you, and on an individual level you can't do it enough. The way you actually cheat in an election is to alter the machines that count the votes, and that requires a lot of money.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
you must give people their due, I mean how else do you get to vote in three districts as yourself AND come back and vote as others too?

So 3 districts plus your normal one? Sounds like a good way to spend 9 to 10 hours in line in order to cast an entire 4 votes.

a reply to: diggindirt

You don't care if I believe you, but you write a 50,000 word response?

LOL.

Since you imagine that you're so knowledgeable about "civics" you may want to look up the difference between voter fraud and election fraud.

You're ostensibly, in regard to your tale about your "aunt's Democratic voting precinct," talking about election fraud.

Voter ID does nothing to combat election fraud. If it were happening.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Also, I feel disenfranchised that the gold standards of 'paper ballots' and voter ID laws have been tossed aside for hackable systems and no-ID laws. Voting is an important right -- FOR EVERYONE. Take it seriously. Protect it. Get an ID.

I find it strange that you would consider paper ballots the gold standard when they are literally the most insecure method ever devised. Perhaps you don't understand how the current machines work? They're not 100% secure, but outside of federal elections, and maybe a handful of state elections no one has the resources to cheat the system. Unlike paper ballots which actually get more insecure the smaller the voting pool gets which opens them up to rampant corruption on the local level.

originally posted by: diggindirtOthers found the same for members of their family who had arisen from the grave to vote. All were Democrats.

Why would them being Democrats matter? We have an anonymous vote in the US. Do you think that Democrats who are using dead people to vote are incapable of using dead Republicans? Not that anyone does this in the first place, but I don't see how the party affiliation of the dead person matters any more than it does for a living person. Democrats are allowed to vote Republican in elections you know.

originally posted by: diggindirt
The people looking through the records KNEW the people who had died and came back and voted. My aunt's name was there with a signature next to her name for nearly ten years after she died. It is a very small precinct, where everyone knows everyone else. There was no "mistake" since every poll worker knew the woman who came back from the dead. It was the same with the others, small precincts where the only poll workers were Democrats.

So you claim the volunteer poll workers are the ones that are corrupt, because they knew your aunt and let someone else sign her name, when they went in to vote?

If this were the case, how would voter ID's fix anything? You can just as easily show an ID for the wrong person but still be marked down, or the poll worker can claim to look at your ID but not actually do so. Voter ID laws are based on the assumption that poll workers are honest and will catch mistakes. Corruption in the sense you're implying is not something they can prevent.

Edit"

Consolidated posts. I want multiquote.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Actually, under Kentucky Statutes, the evidence pointed to both crimes having been committed. The person who signed the book committed voter fraud. The poll worker/s who accepted the signature as authentic knowing that the person listed in the book was dead committed election fraud.

In Kentucky the statutes allow for poll workers to identify voters. Persons known personally by the poll workers do not have to show ID. There is a little box on the voter book that contains five circles. Those circles are labeled, PA, (Personal Acquaintance) DL, (Driver's License) CC (Credit Card) SSC, (Social Security Card) and Other. The person acting as clerk of the poll must fill in one of those circles and sign their initials next to the box.
In the cases of fraud that we found, the identifier was always PA and the initials did not match anyone working at the polls that day.
Both the Sec. of State and the Attorney General examined our evidence---much, much later. Both were of the opinion that both election and voter fraud had happened. But there was no way at that time to trace it back, the statute of limitations had run out on most of the charges and county clerk was already in prison. Two of the suspect poll workers were dead and a third had dementia. By that time we had taken care of the problem by recruiting Republicans and independents to be poll workers.
Just to understand the background here...at the same time we were seeing this corruption in our local government, the FBI was investigating corruption in the Kentucky Legislature. That investigation was dubbed Operation Boptrot and can be found here: en.wikipedia.org... They managed to put a dozen or so of our most brazen legislators in the crossbar hotel. Such was the culture of corruption in our Commonwealth.
The State Auditor elected during this mess knew the culture of corruption quite well. He was from one of the political dynasties of the Bluegrass. But he was an honest man who didn't shy away from prosecuting his fellow Democrats when he found them to be corrupt. He continued to root out corruption and see it prosecuted when he later became Attorney General. Both he and the Sec. of State, another member of a KY political dynasty, were servants of the people and treated people with respect. I came to respect both of them a great deal and am honored to call them friends to this day. Both have since left politics.
If we want the corruption out of government somebody has to do the work of exposing the corruption. Since the crooks don't often reveal their crimes, it is mostly up to citizens. One very simple method of contributing to good governance is to become a poll worker and make sure that elections are conducted fairly and legally. It is basically a volunteer job but well worth it to know that your local election was legal. If you're going to talk the talk, better be ready to do the walk as well.

a reply to: Aazadan

Yes, obviously the poll workers were corrupt. It is a small precinct where everyone knows everyone else. The majority of the modes of ID listed in the book is Personal Acquaintance. Every one of those poll workers listed as working the polls that day knew that she was dead. But someone signed different initials for the ID of the clerk.
Let me attempt to explain: Our precincts each have four poll workers, a clerk, a sheriff, and two judges. Each position can conduct the duties of the other. When poll workers are trained they are trained for all four jobs so that they can fill in for each other throughout the day. Each worker who acts as clerk must make the identification of the voter via either personal acquaintance or some form of ID. They must initial the ID box.
During the elections that we examined, the poll workers initials were, for simplicity's sake---AA, BB, CC, and DD. Yet in several cases the ID portion of the book was signed by the initials AB.
The party matters because in this case all the poll workers were Democrats. There was no check or balance.
I have no idea how widespread this practice was but I can tell you that there were only five people looking at their precincts to find a dozen instances of their dead neighbors or relatives voting from the grave. I suspect it was happening in other areas of the county as well.
Vote buying is another popular practice in our state. Rarely does a year pass that one or more local officials doesn't get sent up the river for buying votes. And yes, it still happens in the legislature as well. Our very own former State Personnel Director pleaded guilty to taking bribes just this past spring. www.courier-journal.com... That investigation is still on-going and some of the folks in Frankfort aren't sleeping well due to it.
That case resulted from a citizen becoming a whistle-blower. That's the only way we can sweep away the corruption sometimes. But at the same time, we must have elected officials who are willing to root out corruption, even in their own party or we end up with the present mess that we see in the federal system.

ETA: If you question your local officials about what appear to be abnormalities and their answer is, "We've always done it that way." Start digging.

a reply to: diggindirt

Right, so, to summarize what you've shown us:

1. Voter fraud does not exist in any relevant degree that would change the results of elections, particularly, state-wide and national elections.

2. Election fraud is not diminished or ameliorated by requiring Voter ID.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Also, I feel disenfranchised that the gold standards of 'paper ballots' and voter ID laws have been tossed aside for hackable systems and no-ID laws. Voting is an important right -- FOR EVERYONE. Take it seriously. Protect it. Get an ID.

I find it strange that you would consider paper ballots the gold standard when they are literally the most insecure method ever devised.

I understand just fine.

And I am not the only one who believes paper ballots are the gold standard:

THE GOLD STANDARD

Public hand counting of voter marked paper ballots is the only system that allows for full citizen oversight of elections—the foundation of democratic self-governance.



The Bedrock of Verifiable Elections

Paper ballots must be established as the national standard for democratic elections in the United States.

However, seventeen states use some form of Direct Recording Electronic (DRE) Touchscreen voting machines that provide no paper ballot.

In most states where there are paper ballots, they are counted by privately owned, and secretly programmed Optical Scan computers, which are proven prone to error and lost votes, and can be manipulated and rigged to count fraudulently.

In some states, counting the ballots by hand in public has been made illegal to facilitate the takeover of private computerized vote counting.

While using paper records may sound antiquated to some, the consensus among election defenders and international technology experts is that nothing else provides the needed reliability, security, and transparency.

The Gold Standard of election process is paper ballots cast in see-through plastic or otherwise untamperable boxes, with all ballots counted by hand in public at the location where they are cast, before they are moved to a central location or stored.

This process alone provides full public oversight and transparency, and produces a vote count verified by all stakeholders.

Where ballots are currently counted by Optical Scan computers, election experts agree that they must then be audited manually, using effective and stringent auditing techniques to verify the machine results.

Jurisdictions currently using unverifiable Direct Recording Electronic (DRE) Touchscreen voting machines that provide no paper have a responsibility to immediately scrap these insecure and opaque systems in favor of a paper based system that can be manually counted, and further audited or recounted for accuracy and to resolve disputed results.

Computerized voting equipment purchased with 2002 HAVA funds is now failing nationwide, making a return to public hand counting a reasonable and even attractive option for cash poor communities that can't afford to purchase expensive new systems

Link

For those who think voter fraud just doesn't happen, well, Here is some proof that it does. After reading the thread, I have not seen any valid reasons for opposition to this law.

ID is provided for FREE. So the only excuse for not getting one is you are lazy. If you are too lazy to go get the one free thing you need to vote, you are likely too damn lazy to vote in the first place.

a reply to: network dude

(Facepalm)
Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case and would like networkdude to stop using that damn dogwhistle so unsubtly.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
I understand just fine.

And I am not the only one who believes paper ballots are the gold standard:

Link

Sounds to me like a bunch of luddites who don't understand how easy paper ballots are to manipulate.

originally posted by: network dude
For those who think voter fraud just doesn't happen, well, Here is some proof that it does. After reading the thread, I have not seen any valid reasons for opposition to this law.

ID would not stop what happened in this case. Voter ID stops voter fraud (voting while claiming to be someone else), it does nothing to election fraud (changing the results of the votes, often with fraudulent ballots). One of those happens (and most often happens in state legislatures), the other rarely happens.

a reply to: Aazadan

nope, but collecting dead folks names that can vote, is easy enough and has been done in the past. So what is the reason that ID's for voting are a bad thing? Is it best to just trust that everyone will do what they were supposed to? Nobody would put folks on a bus and take them to multiple polling stations and give them names to use right?

You have a right to vote, we the people have a right to know that it's done as honestly as possible.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Aazadan

nope, but collecting dead folks names that can vote, is easy enough and has been done in the past. So what is the reason that ID's for voting are a bad thing? Is it best to just trust that everyone will do what they were supposed to? Nobody would put folks on a bus and take them to multiple polling stations and give them names to use right?

You have a right to vote, we the people have a right to know that it's done as honestly as possible.

How do ID's help to ensure that trust? An ID would stop someone from walking into the polling station and using the name of a dead person to vote, but that's not how cheating is done. Fradulent ballots are just added into the ballots to count at the end of the day while some people sign off on names. Committing voter fraud doesn't work because it's too time consuming. You can hit up each polling place once or twice, and you have to stand in line to do it, a line that's only open for a few hours. There's simply no way to do it efficiently.

a reply to: diggindirt

I meant the link to her arrest, but ya my issue here is you are solely relying on anecdotal evidence of your personal experience to try and show proof of something much larger than that. What you are 9saying may very well have happened, but that doesn't mean it is the problem everyone says it is. And relying on the cop outs that you just don't trust the investigatons is pretty weak.
I understand the system just fine, just because I won't take your story as the end all be all fact had nothing to do with that or my reading comprehension, oh and when I posted that reply you had not answered those questions by gryph so maybe it shouldn't be my comprehension called into question.

a reply to: network dude

No one is saying it doesn't happen, they are saying it doesn't happen to the extent people make it out to justify the laws. What happened to laws only apply to law abiding citizens and criminals are just going to figure out how to get around them anyway?

a reply to: Aazadan

why is it a problem to show your ID to vote? Does it hurt? It's free to get one, and it just makes sense to prove who you are. Other than pure laziness, I can''t see any reason anyone would have a problem with this.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Aazadan

why is it a problem to show your ID to vote? Does it hurt? It's free to get one, and it just makes sense to prove who you are. Other than pure laziness, I can''t see any reason anyone would have a problem with this.

I didn't say I have a problem with it. There's a segment of the population that clearly wants it, the simplest solution is to implement it rather than argue about it.. My argument is that it's pointless. It's a poor solution to a non existent problem. I don't mind big government, but the people who most support a voter ID act do, yet doing so is opposed to the spirit of their ideology.

The biggest problem with such a law is that it creates the illusion of secure elections which is contrary to the reality. Take this thread, every example you and others have put forward is not stopped by a voter ID law, yet you believe such a law fixes our elections.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Aazadan

why is it a problem to show your ID to vote? Does it hurt? It's free to get one, and it just makes sense to prove who you are. Other than pure laziness, I can''t see any reason anyone would have a problem with this.

Because requiring everyone who votes to show an ID is somehow racist.

Yet in order to claim its racist, one must resort to stereotyping... which is racist.