Just tear is up!

The unseen art of labelling
Right from the word go! we are trained to label collect 200 dollars or if not go to jail, as we form part of the multiple board games that engulf us. What seems like simple fun, ends up being our life focus. We put a label or a measurement on something and we soon become like gods that over see everything.
Good place to start is the family, "This is my son" emphasis is on "my" this is where the label really gets stood upon. Once something is labelled as yours, it appears to have become an object of manipulation. Hands down, you havean entitlement with your role. This works in reverse of course, " My parents have to do this for me"

On Children Kahlil Gibran Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday. You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth. The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far. Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness; For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

labelling works great, now we can make assumptions about everything. We may not get everything we bargained for, but hey this is how things work in the world of labels. " I am............." and along with that comes your entitlements, positive or negative it will be what you expect!
"I’m American, I’m Greek, I’m a Man, I’m a Woman. I’m a winner, I’m a victim, I’m black, I’m white. I’m neither this or that! The labelling just goes on and on like a wacky printer creating reality. So really what is the problem with labels I ask ?
Labels are fine! its our belief in them that makes the issues, We really are none of these labels, they are just a way of naming what we are up to at one particular moment in time. Sounds silly to even write about them, but when the very idea of a label that someone (including ourselves) created starts to limit us, well its not a bad idea to just tear it up.

a reply to: ancientthunder

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about. But If you are going through pain via profiling or something, I am sorry and I hope it gets better for you and yours

A rock is a rock. Is that a label or description? A rapist is a rapist is that a label or description? It is what it is, a description, those with a political PC agenda to fall back into the victim role love the label concept, it's the left's bird whistle. God forgive we call something that IT really is.

I hope you find peace and not dwell on such a small insignificant fabricated divisive complaint. I'm a racist because I believe "All Lives Matter". Rather stupid to have a problem with that wouldn't you say?

Peace

a reply to: ancientthunder

(Children) come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

Beautiful, man. Tell that to the millions of controlling parents that force feed their toddlers church, sports and political ideologies before they can understand. Its called bringing them up 'right', but really destroys that beautiful little independent budding character, making it over into the misguided parents stylized idea of their failed selves.

Screw the public education system too, it strips children from the bosom of their family way too early, injecting its own toxic indoctrination of nationalistic fervor and false historical record.

Damn control freaks.

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about.

a reply to: thenightisours
You obviously dont, so thats ok then!

The message of Kahil Gibran was and is I reckon for those who are open to it, for those who are not open continue as normal. The main thing is it reached you and that in turn reaches me. One person is enough for now, is it not? Gracias intrptr a reply to: intrptr

originally posted by: ancientthunder

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about.

a reply to: thenightisours
You obviously dont, so thats ok then!

Whew, thanks and I thought it might have been me. Content to know you agree.

Peace

a reply to: ancientthunder

The main thing is it reached you and that in turn reaches me.

More like I identified wth it because it is in also in me. Everyone has a soul, a conduit for wisdom.

a reply to: thenightisours

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I'm with you.

I also find it strange to say....

Your children are not your children..... They come through you but not from you,

.....because actually, in a very literal sense they DO come FROM us. The whole sperm and egg thing.

Edit to Add: When I refer to my son as "my son" it is not meant to imply ownership (as one may own a shirt or a telephone). It is meant to imply that I am charged with caring for him, for raising him, for protecting him and teaching him. I cannot understand how such a seemingly obvious fact of life is lost on people and how some people are seemingly offended by terms such as "my son."

Great reply, you learn really quick impressive!a reply to: thenightisours

a reply to: ancientthunder

hey, it is not silly and much gratitude for sharing this...as it is something which we normally like to do. Causing us to be conditioned by this or that and effect or expectations on the other end as the label imposes it.

maybe even the root of cause and effect, believing in labels we impose on our being or others. Starting with the label "I". Root of egoistic conditioning and clinging.

When we are starting to remove labels and conditions imposed unto ourselves or others than we can begin to start living in peace and more focused on the present and not past or future events.

but this is easier said than done, because some labels or conditions can be cemented into us deeper then we are prepared to admit or recognize. With constant mindfulness and perseverance we can practice to recognize them all and decide our actions and thoughts without imposition.

at least this is my view about it...if anyone has any remarks, pls speak up!

.....because actually, in a very literal sense they DO come FROM us. The whole sperm and egg thing.

a reply to: eluryh22
Ah the sperms and the eggs! yes that is like when you feed the chicken with maze you get a darker yolk. Must be that all things are components and enviromental effects. That sperm and egg contains all your ancestors info also, so on the logical sense we also see that they are not just wholy ours. We claim ownership, but.... that may be just our standard way of labelling.

I hear you.

I had the opportunity to address this in the Introduction threads when someone labeled me as "lovely and kind of freaky.":

Well, that's a first. I'll add that to my repertoire. I've only been "described" by others on two occasions. One was a friend who described me as an odd combination of royalty and army fatigue. The other was my husband's boss, who was trying to introduce me to a room full of professionals. Things got awkward when she was in the midst of, "This is Tom and he's a physician, this is Dick and he's an architect, this is Harry and he's a professor. Everyone, this is Susan and she's a...she's a..." and then she turned to me, wide eyed, and exclaimed, "Why Susan, you're nothing!" There was a very dead long pause where we both silently gulped. The silence was broken by some nervous laughs and the subject was thankfully changed. That is partly why this Introduction initiation was so challenging for me. I can tell you where I've lived and what I've done to make a living, but that's not a living and says nothing about who I am. After wrestling with this for two weeks, I got to that point of thinking "the hell with it," and just jumped into the water.

I love ATS precisely because we can voice our opinions in a global forum and learn so much about others and ourselves in the process.

Fishy

a reply to: ancientthunder

We claim ownership, but....

I just said that when a parent refers to a child as "their" child it is not meant to mean ownership in the sense that one owns an inanimate object. It is a way to describe a relationship. My friend. My sister. My wife. None of these imply ownership (unless one specifically wants to see it that way.... which I'm starting to think you do.... although to be fair I still don't fully understand the point of this thread but that is not for a lack of trying, I assure you).

Yes you are right, making a point can easily take you to an extreme. I am not stating that everyone has ownership over their children, only that some do. But some say he is "my friend" and get upset when someone else says its theirs also. This is Juvenile of course, but have we not seen or been juvenile adults at times? As I said, the labeling is not to blame, but before you know it we believe it. We identify with labels and roles. This is a phylosophical post to look at that side of life, a quick look in the mirror. None the less, thanks for your view as it has been helpful for this thread in more ways than one.a reply to: eluryh22

Seems the thread is getting derailed in a tit for tat, when the most important thing is how labels given, accepted or received... can bring people suffering if so attached to them. Whether someone wants to personally attach to them is their burden they are yoked by.

Of course there can be consent or not consent to allow the yoke on oneself. Desire and attachment come in many forms and well desire is the root of attachment so obviously, when one is attached to some label... a conversation is to ask them why? Obviously it is out of desire... so the real question is... what are you desiring? One can ask themselves the same thing.

Why am I accepting the label of this that or the other? Is it out of my desire or another's desire? If it is not out of ones own... then one can be compassionate and accept that label as it is essentially empty when one is not attached to it them-self but another is... if the label causes you suffering, then one must look at why a label causes you suffering is it a lie? Then obviously if the label is a lie and one is on the path of truth... it becomes the arrows people sling hoping to poison each other with by some manner of control or association.

Of course the root of all desire is to be happy in some manner, bringing others suffering from oneself suffering brings ease to some people so they seek to make others suffer in such an ignorance.

Of course, being mired in such ignorance... then they will not understand nor comprehend how such a simple thing as possessive terms bring suffering, because the subconscious mechanism is not really seen in oneself, as it is very hard to see one's own faults yet so very very easy to point out another's. So when one points at the faults of others, ask oneself instead is this I have a fault of in myself? If not then how have you recognized it? If you have over come it... others that display such a thing may want to know so that they too can overcome such suffering... however if they are ignorant to it causing them suffering and identify that as a permanent lasting self? Then it is obviously their choice or karma to not see it or would rather ignore it than attempt to understand it, because thats just the way it is, without any questioning or introspection as to any underlying drives or motives that may arise or bring themselves or others suffering due to such empty attachments to name and form.

A rock a rock? How about when it's a boulder... ok then it is a size thing... well now it is no longer a rock but has to do with weight or size... so where does a rock begin and a boulder end... or are they the same thing... hmm?

Attachment to name and form when both are essentially emptiness brings anyone thusly attached suffering.

Compassion and empathy understands, beings of various sorts are attached to various forms of being as well as labels, names, forms or whatever... it is infinite in both directions... the names that are given to form and the emptiness in that conception that never describes them... so infinitely empty and infinitely not... and yet it is and it isn't.

So where is the middle ground? Where one places consciousness, whether it be sight, sound, smell, taste, touch it will arise in the mind consciousness... if there is awareness of an "it" in the mind consciousness then there is an attachment to "it". It does not need a label yet there is one if need be... many people do not label everything they see yet the subconscious mind sees it. Some people label nothing they see, it is just an empty form no cloud of thought arises due to any attachments. Yet there is still form oneself may be empty to all form as form is empty to oneself... but others not understanding or experiencing such base reality beyond all the mental fabrications then they are lost in a world of objects of being no different than form itself, to where emptiness cannot arise.

In one that has practiced meditation and has experienced the void of all pervasive space knows this... one that has not experienced the void of all pervasive space in practice of meditation? Has no possible way to understand or experience such a thing except through their very own conception of it... or a thought about emptiness than experience of what emptiness actually is.

This is of course the difference in an awakened mind and a mind mired and lost in a world of ignorance of being. Eventually the state of meditation gets to the point where essentially all form is empty there is no need to meditate further after such a state arises. As all is essentially empty and void of anything... yet there is still form and those attached to it and others in various ways and means.

Having learned and studied what all those various things are, one can speak of them about them and reference them just the same as anyone else, yet the experience is 100% different... the only time the unawakened experience such a thing is in unawareness the awakened experience it as such in full awareness.

Having compassion and empathy for those mired in such unawareness at some point gets to be more and more difficult, simply because the pointing seems to be a moot cause. There is no way one can tell another an experience so that they experience it...

Hence the old no one can taste food with your tongue only their own. So how can ones own tongue taste anyone else's food? Well, having gone beyond such one knows what that pain and suffering is and feels like, and one can try to be empathetic to them, but as they are unaware it is easy to see oneself may be unaware of what they are yet still aware of.

One could be seen or experienced as a ghost... and yet not understand one has simply gone thus beyond such things and suffers no longer, the sad part is the things that people are attached to are the very chains binding them into hell and the cycle of birth and death and becoming... so when one is between worlds it is important to continue to practice... yet the longer one is gone from the old world, the farther their voices get or go away.

The world may become very difficult to move around in as others move or manipulate the things one may be attached to having thus gone beyond. Of course to escape birth and death even if one has escaped death and the arising wombs is to still practice detachment and teach others the same, sadly one can hear those that haunt and try to control others pretending to be gods or devils attached to form and manipulate them into doing and being things not oneself.

That is the only danger of labels. Of course as an awakened being that has gone beyond such things then it is seen for what it is, there is no temptation to control or manipulate others, just live in peace and empathy yet there is no way to control or command such a being and all those saying or promising they can are simply lying and deceiving. For egotistical or personal gain knowing not all beings are beyond duality and are subject to greed, hate and easily controlled or deluded by such attachments.

Saying one believes in a god or anything, opens oneself up for this manipulation or control... as they hear a voice in their head not oneself. There are no voices in the awakened mind it is as serene as a pond that is undisturbed. It is emptiness itself peaceful and beyond suffering. It does not wish nor want to hurt nor manipulate or control others but help aid ease and guide them to peace, tolerance, compassion and understanding.

Yet the suffering ones choice... and no one else's.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

I agree with much of what you wrote but I do feel compelled to respond to the following:

There are no voices in the awakened mindit is as serene as a pond that is undisturbed.

Isn't claiming that one is "awake" a label onto itself? Is it not meant to indicate that the "awakened" person is, in some ways, better than those the "awake" person perceives to be asleep?

A rock a rock? How about when it's a boulder... ok then it is a size thing... well now it is no longer a rock but has to do with weight or size... so where does a rock begin and a boulder end... or are they the same thing... hmm?

While I may not appreciate the tone of the contributor who introduced the "rock is a rock" phrase into this thread, I can understand where he/she was coming from. If the goal of removing labels from society is taken to the point where one can not identify a rock as a rock... as a society we will have issues. I think when taken to that extreme it's no longer an attempt to remove labels so much as it is essentially an assault on language. If we were to totally eliminate labels (for people, animals, plants and inanimate objects) we would basically be wandering around listlessly with almost no way to communicate with each other.

Is it true that some labels can be harmful (whether or not they are intended by the speaker to be harmful)? Yes. I know first hand that that can be the case (especially when the label is issued to a young mind that hasn't yet had the chance to mature to a point where they can disregard the affixed label). I'm not going to go into details here but will go as far to say that growing up in a poor family, I had been affixed more than one label that I didn't like hearing at the time and later learned was utter nonsense.

That being said, are all labels that acknowledge a hierarchy inherently bad? No. They are not. For example, if one were visit a construction site there are laborers, foreman, project managers and project executives. Provided the entire project team is built from decent human beings, although the executive's decisions supersede the manager's decision and the manager's decision supersedes the foreman's decision and the laborer essentially follows the orders of all of the above, there are no hard feelings. There is no resentment. These labels are a way to describe, essentially, the flow of information.

I think if taken to an extreme the "labels are offensive" position would mean that nothing would be built, ever, for fear of issuing a potentially "bad" label to someone.

There are no voices in the awakened mindit is as serene as a pond that is undisturbed. Isn't claiming that one is "awake" a label onto itself? Is it not meant to indicate that the "awakened" person is, in some ways, better than those the "awake" person perceives to be asleep?

a reply to: eluryh22
Im answering your question to clarify how easy the label can be missread and miss-said. The awakened mind is not the awakened person/s, in fact there are no awakened persons. All there is is awakened mind and within that mind are parts that are dreaming. The awakened mind knows this and the dreaming parts do not, if they did as soon as they were infused with awakening they would disolve or burst like a bubble. All persons are dreamers in one way or another, that awakened mind knows this and accepts this. The awakened mind like a mirror can reflect anything, any dream, any dreamer. The awakened mind is unlimited, the dreamer and dream is limited.

a reply to: eluryh22

It is an experience not a label. Some have experienced space as an astronaut and some have not... is the human no longer human once an astronaut? Human and astronaut mean nothing as it is just a label, to an experience of being. Some have had some experience and some have not yet, that experience held is never oneself just a conglomerate of many varied incomplete experiences taken as a self... saying yes I have seen the moon does not mean one has experienced the moon except in the sense of sight, if you experience it in touch then you have experienced the moon a bit more yes? But is the moon ever the same when even seen?

It is always changing in orbit, it is always gaining and losing mass... no different than the earth so no two moments no matter how similar are never ever the same experience... so what is one holding onto as an experience of something? An empty concept called the past that can never occur again except as a history lesson of what one has learned, yet what is learning but a bunch of concepts that can be labeled as positive negative or neutral?

Sure in a sentient form things arise and they pass, just the same with every other living being, yet there is thought about the world one is in instead of experiencing the world as it is in and of itself in the very moment it is arising... so one is lost in an illusory thought form of self and other agreed upon forms in order to do one thing: communicate. Electricity does this across a synapse... or energy spreading across matter in a form of contact, the perception of this contact is labeled with name and form, yet as said name and form are essentially empty and moot to what that is.

Yet there is an experience of being whether there is a label or not... one simply experiences things as it is, and one experiences things as they've learned to conceive or grasp onto them in a manner that wishes to control or manipulate.

Just being.

I saw the title of this post and all I could think of was:

Thanks yeah that was a great insight response to the mood/ Thank you.a reply to: BomSquad